Car Choice - NEW Hilux vs Defender or something else?

[kbf1981]

I've owned by 2015 Defender XS Station Wagon 110 from new, since 2015 - I bought it privately for £33k and it's probably worth £40-45k now (mileage 43k, in amazing condition, full waxoyl from new, always serviced every 6k-7k miles or so via Land Rover, no expense spared on any upkeep).

Anyway, I've recently (9 months ago) bought a Porsche Taycan Turbo through the business and have been driving that a lot so not driving the Defender as much. The Porsche is great as a daily but I've also since had a new baby and it's not big enough for prams etc, and obviously it's not an off road car and I do like to go on family road trips where we'll go off the beaten track, as well as green lanes.

The Defender is fantastic but I've been in a borrowed Hilux Invincible X this week that someone lent to me for a house move, and I'm really liking it. It's so quiet, it's very comfy, it has Android Auto which is excellent (the Porsche doesn't even have that). I'm really enjoying it.

I had a look at the tax breaks for pick ups and I could buy a Hilux (or any other 1000kg+ pick up), via my business and pay just £1500 per year in personal tax whilst buying the car with business money and fuel with business money, so it's cheap motoring. My Defender also, whilst I love it, is too noisy to daily and it's getting to the stage where I'm thinking "well I need to fully waxyoyl it again and just don't have time" (I work 60hrs+ a week and will do something every day, plus new baby, just moved house, I'm time poor but relatively cash rich to some degree).

So I was thinking... do I sell the Defender, pocket the £45k and invest it (I do pretty well with my investments), and buy a Hilux via the business. This seems tax efficient and financially the thing that makes the most money. Or do I keep it and do the odd jobs on it that need doing (e.g. fit a stereo with Android Auto, get it sound proofed, get it waxoyled again etc).

The Taycan may go in future as I've a letter of intent in for a new GT3 Touring, so if I'm lucky enough to get one I'd trade it against the Touring and the Touring would just be a weekend fun car and I'd daily the 4x4.

I know this sounds very much like "first world problems", and it is, but I just can't decide between keeping the classic Defender or selling it. I could afford to keep it but my dads recently become sick and this has made me aware of just how much hoarding we all do.... so I don't think "oh just keep it", if it's not being used that much, is a sensible thing - the things you own, own you, and all that really matters is experiences.

So yeah, would you sell the Defender, invest the cash, and buy a Hilux through the business, or would you keep it, or would you get something else entirely?

[dlks151]

Have you looked at availability on the Hilux?

We've recently been quoted 11 months delivery on a new Invincible X model, and from what I've heard from others they have been told the same for other models within the range. With Mitsubishi / VW / Merc / Fiat / Nissan pulling out of the UK pickup market it looks like Toyota have very little in the way of serious competition, perhaps with the exception of Ford (which I wouldn't touch) and Isuzu, and Toyota's current pricing certainly seems to reflect this.

I've been considering what to do with my 90, which as you rightly point out now gets used as a 3rd car. Like yours mine is immaculate, and I know that if I ever get rid of it there will be no replacing it, so it's getting kept as a forever car, anything else can go other than the Defender.

[kbf1981]

dlks151 said:

Have you looked at availability on the Hilux?

We've recently been quoted 11 months delivery on a new Invincible X model, and from what I've heard from others they have been told the same for other models within the range. With Mitsubishi / VW / Merc / Fiat / Nissan pulling out of the UK pickup market it looks like Toyota have very little in the way of serious competition, perhaps with the exception of Ford (which I wouldn't touch) and Isuzu, and Toyota's current pricing certainly seems to reflect this.

I've been considering what to do with my 90, which as you rightly point out now gets used as a 3rd car. Like yours mine is immaculate, and I know that if I ever get rid of it there will be no replacing it, so it's getting kept as a forever car, anything else can go other than the Defender.

My Taycan is so tax efficient through the business that effectively its a "free" car, since it gets written down in first year, the cost goes down as depreciation, and depreciation doesn't impact your EBITDA. So.... I'd be tempted to swap out the Taycan but it doesn't cost me any money.

The Defender is in my personal name, and it's effectively after tax cash - so if I sell it, I'd have £45k to put into investments. To take £45k out of the business would cost me £100k+ after income tax, NI, employers NI etc. Even as dividends you're looking at having to take out £100k to get £45k.

I also am just not using the Defender much presently, but then my Taycan is too small for a baby car with pram etc. We have other cars in the household. I guess I just fancy a Hilux and I'm trying to workout ways to justify one as having 3 cars just for myself is silly and a waste of money, space and time.

[sunbeam alpine]

I went from a Discovery to a Hilux (combination of tax advantage and the horror stories about LR reliability) and I absolutely hate the thing. If you compare it with a Defender it may be OK, but if you're mostly driving a Porsche, you may feel the same. The pickup is also completely impractical - if you put stuff in the back (and you've got any kind of top/hard cover, you'll end up climbing in to unload it. It's fine if you load/unload with a forklift.

The Hilux is an excellent machine and I'm sure it won't let you down, but it's closer to the agricultural end of the market. With my Disco I had one car which could do pretty much everything - I could jump in it and drive up to Scotland to stay with friends. I find the Toyota quite tiresome after about an hour's driving. I work in agriculture so it does get used as intended!

[kbf1981]

sunbeam alpine said:

I went from a Discovery to a Hilux (combination of tax advantage and the horror stories about LR reliability) and I absolutely hate the thing. If you compare it with a Defender it may be OK, but if you're mostly driving a Porsche, you may feel the same. The pickup is also completely impractical - if you put stuff in the back (and you've got any kind of top/hard cover, you'll end up climbing in to unload it. It's fine if you load/unload with a forklift.

The Hilux is an excellent machine and I'm sure it won't let you down, but it's closer to the agricultural end of the market. With my Disco I had one car which could do pretty much everything - I could jump in it and drive up to Scotland to stay with friends. I find the Toyota quite tiresome after about an hour's driving. I work in agriculture so it does get used as intended!

Which year hilux? This is a 2021 invincible x im using at the moment. Yes its no where near the Taycan, but its much more comfortable than the Defender.

I guess I'm trying to find something that's massive, I can chuck stuff in, that'll stand up to regularly taken on rough green lanes, and comfortable for the occasional long distance drive (eg up to 4 hours a go), and I can potentially do the Iceland ring road in next year.

Did you ever test drive the new Isuzu?

I looked at a new Defender too but not that much space in them. Id go for a 130 if it was out. I like the idea of another car you don't need to worry about.... hit a curb, who cares, parking dents, who cares etc...

[cdrick4]

My brother owns a Hilux 3.0 d4d, and I haven't heard any complaints from him.

[snowandrocks]

I bought our 2016 Hilux to replace an ancient Land Cruiser that finally succumbed to the salt laden roads up here. I had intended to use it mainly for local running about, off road, snow and towing but it's become our main car for everything.

It's a base model 2.4 active so much more basic than what you're considering but it still has AC, cruise, Bluetooth. It's not fast but feels torquey enough with well chosen gears, it cruises quietly even at speed and it drives well if occasionally a bit bouncy if completely empty. Most importantly, it's been completely reliable, I haven't even had to change a bulb.

[sunbeam alpine]

kbf1981 said:

sunbeam alpine said:

I went from a Discovery to a Hilux (combination of tax advantage and the horror stories about LR reliability) and I absolutely hate the thing. If you compare it with a Defender it may be OK, but if you're mostly driving a Porsche, you may feel the same. The pickup is also completely impractical - if you put stuff in the back (and you've got any kind of top/hard cover, you'll end up climbing in to unload it. It's fine if you load/unload with a forklift.

The Hilux is an excellent machine and I'm sure it won't let you down, but it's closer to the agricultural end of the market. With my Disco I had one car which could do pretty much everything - I could jump in it and drive up to Scotland to stay with friends. I find the Toyota quite tiresome after about an hour's driving. I work in agriculture so it does get used as intended!

Which year hilux? This is a 2021 invincible x im using at the moment. Yes its no where near the Taycan, but its much more comfortable than the Defender.

I guess I'm trying to find something that's massive, I can chuck stuff in, that'll stand up to regularly taken on rough green lanes, and comfortable for the occasional long distance drive (eg up to 4 hours a go), and I can potentially do the Iceland ring road in next year.

Did you ever test drive the new Isuzu?

I looked at a new Defender too but not that much space in them. Id go for a 130 if it was out. I like the idea of another car you don't need to worry about.... hit a curb, who cares, parking dents, who cares etc...

The Hilux is a 2016 model. I bought it in 2018 from a mate who bought a Disco 5 because he didn't enjoy the ride in the Hilux - in fairness he did warn me about the ride quality - but I needed something quite quickly as someone had crashed into my Disco, writing it off. The attraction of the Hilux was the tax advantage, low mileage and I knew its history from new.

We've got an Isuzu pickup on one of the farms. It's indestructible but very much an agricultural implement.

I've been looking at the new Landcruiser but it's a bit blingy for my taste - looks like the last iteration of the Saab.

[Smint]

Sold our Hilux a few years ago and have regretted it since, 3.0 litre auto was a lovely drive.
Comfort wise even the weight of hardtop over the tub will lessen the bounce and the ride is really quite good, tyre choice is really important not just for noise and comfort but for wet handling especially.
I would have another HIlux tomorrow, but as said above about access to the pick up bed, i'd spend a little more next time on the hardtop and get one where the sides openfor access as well as the standard back upper tailgate section.

One thing to check though, for some markets Toyota have fitted a manual switch so the owner/driver can trigger DPF regens when ideal, much like the case with trucks where the driver has in most cases a degree of control of stopping a regen if unsuitable or being able to trigger a stationary full regen where it might have been necessary to cancel an normal ecu triggered regen or even several if the circs dictated unsafe.
Worth checking if UK Hilux's have this feature.

Mine being a 2007 mk 6 Invincible it was obviously selectable 4WD but due to Invic spec the rear axle was limited slip, i found this a detriment to wet handling because the friction setting of the limited slip was so high on wet roads it was almost like having a locked diff, hence if an oversteer was possible the tail would flick out too easily exacerbated by the LSD, a lower spec model wouldn't have had LSD hence and inside driven wheel would just spin out whilst the outside wheel tended to keep the vehicle steady, that's why i suggest being ultra piacky on tyre selection.
Not had a Hilux since, i thought i read somewhere that you could have standard Prado like full time 4WD option on the higher spec models, might be worth enquiring, also isn't there talk of Toyota offering a V6 Diesel version soon, if so that would be a cracking motor and knock VW Amarok of its flying pick up podium.

[kbf1981]

Not heard about a V6 Diesel version, where did you hear that?

There doesn't seem much else to choose from if you want a proper 4x4 that's well built and you can bash about in.

[snowandrocks]

kbf1981 said:

Not heard about a V6 Diesel version, where did you hear that?

There doesn't seem much else to choose from if you want a proper 4x4 that's well built and you can bash about in.

There have been a few rumours that the Hilux is getting the 3.3 V6 from the new 300 series Land Cruiser. With over 300 bhp and 700nM it sounds great but I haven't heard anything official.

As someone mentioned above - I wouldn't expect delivery of a new Hilux anytime soon. There's currently a huge waiting list.

[Smint]

kbf1981 said:

Not heard about a V6 Diesel version, where did you hear that?

There doesn't seem much else to choose from if you want a proper 4x4 that's well built and you can bash about in.

Can't remember now but wherever it was they seem pretty convinced its coming, more than likely an Australian site.
Hilux and HIlux based motors, Surfs etc, have had quite a selection of engines in JDM format for some time now, course that doesn't mean we'll get them here, BUT, if people like our OP who obviously aint short of a few bob (and good luck to him), make it known to various Toyota retailers that they'd love to buy a Hilux but want a fast option such as both Ford and VW provide so going yo buy elsewhere, well, the more feedback they get that the 2.8 just doesn't cut it then the more chance they'll come up with the goods.
Maybe some letters to Toyota GB wouldn't be amiss asking for the product?

The only proper 4x4 Toyota offer now here is the upgraded 150 series Prado (even 120 series could be had in the States with a petrol V8), even if they do decide to offer the new 300 series Landcruiser here, its not the sort of vehicle people will want to useas a knockabout load carrier seeing as it will be nudging the £100k mark and is the size of decent tank, unless i'm mistaken won't be able to be bought under the favourable business use plan that a pick up offers anyway, let alone the eye watering VED such a vehicle will be saddled with.

It's the last chance saloon for people who want something a bit different, our glorious leaders intent on making us wear hair shirts for them have put a time limit on the sale of such new vehicles here, might as well see out the last years with some enjoyment before we all get assimiliated into the battery powered Borg.

[kbf1981]

Have you ever had a go in a Ranger Raptor? That looks cool but again, not sure I'd trust it as much as the Toyota.

[normalbloke]

kbf1981 said:

Have you ever had a go in a Ranger Raptor? That looks cool but again, not sure I'd trust it as much as the Toyota.

You might want to investigate the Raptor and it’s tax issues before committing to that route....

[Smint]

No, though i'd sort of pencilled in a 3.2 Ranger as a possible when our ageing Prado dies.

Until that is John Cadoggan let it be known about the 15 minute oil change farce, according to John basically if you don't complete the oil change within 15 minutes of draining the oil out the oil pump, variable rate apparently, can't self prime, i can only assume this is kosher and i'm bewildered that a working vehicle would be sadlled with such a basic design flaw, never heard anything so ridiculous, imagine the faff if you had a sumpe gasket leak.

I'm one who lets the oil drain overnight, on some engines (Toyota 3 litre Diesel is one such) you can see the oil strainer directly above the drain hole, so next morning i shine a torch or endoscope up and inspect said pick up.

Have ruled out Ford completely because of this, in my mind if the engine isn't up to a life of commercial type work what else isn't.
Have had Toyota 4x4's for many years going back to my first 70 series, never let me down, no failures apart from the starter motor on the present Prado which took a couple of hours to swap at home @ £126 for a Lucas recon unit, and the odd bulb that's blown over the years.

Edited by Smint on Monday 19th July 16:49

[normalbloke]

Smint said:

No, though i'd sort of pencilled in a 3.2 Ranger as a possible when our ageing Prado dies.

Until that is John Cadoggan let it be known about the 15 minute oil change farce, according to John basically if you don't complete the oil change within 15 minutes of draining the oil out the oil pump, variable rate apparently, can't self prime, i can only assume this is kosher and i'm bewildered that a working vehicle would be sadlled with such a basic design flaw, never heard anything so ridiculous, imagine the faff if you had a sumpe gasket leak.

I'm one who lets the oil drain overnight, on some engines (Toyota 3 litre Diesel is one such) you can see the oil strainer directly above the drain hole, so next morning i shine a torch or endoscope up and inspect said pick up.

Have ruled out Ford completely because of this, in my mind if the engine isn't up to a life of commercial type work what else isn't.
Have had Toyota 4x4's for many years going back to my first 70 series, never let me down, no failures apart from the starter motor on the present Prado which took a couple of hours to swap at home @ £126 for a Lucas recon unit, and the odd bulb that's blown over the years.

Edited by Smint on Monday 19th July 16:49

You’re almost right. It’s 10 minutes.

[Ben-xwdgs]

Personnel I'd say sell the Defender, these things won't be worth what they are for ever, cash in and get the Hilux.
As much as I do love them they are pig to drive simple, especially any long distances with long stretches of motorway.
And putting it through the company is a win win for the tax breaks.

[elijoshy]

If I'm the one, I would sell the defender and get the Hilux since I already fall in love with it. Investment is good. So I will invest the remaining money.

[kbf1981]

What's everyone's view on the new DMax VCross? Looks awesome, and very well rated for reliability as a brand. Getting lots of good reviews abroad to for actually being used off road.

[cowboyengineer]

Another option which has more reliability than the defender, but is night and day better on road than the hilux is the commercial land cruiser lwb. About the same prize as a top spec hilux, cheaper than the defender.

However, my money went on a new commercial defender as then is much nicer to drive than even the land cruiser. Pickups don't even compare, and nor should they as they are cheaper and designed to take take a 1t payload.

Also i do have two hiluxs on order, i ordered them in June, was told second quarter next year for delivery. But they are works vehicles for my guys to go onsite and they will get abused.