Grand Cherokee WK 3.0 CRD vs Discovery TD5
Discussion
I originally posted in the car buying section but haven't had a response, so I've copied it to here to see if it'll get more of a response:
Ok, to cut a long story short, I thought I'd narrowed down our future dog vehicle/boat towing/snow vehicle as a Jeep Grand Cherokee WK 3.0 CRD.
However now I've the cash I'm struggling to find decent ones in Overland spec to look at that aren't at the other end of the country. Either they've seats that are falling apart, dodgy mileage history or oil leaks. So my thoughts keep going back to TD5 Discoveries...
So thinking out loud through my pros and cons am I missing anything:
Engine
GC has a 3.0 CRD 215bhp vs 135ish of TD5
GC has swirl issues and a few seem to be getting oil leaks. Easily remapped for more power. Longevity?
TD5 can have exhaust manifold issues, limited remap potential (up to 170 ish with intercooler?)
Rust
GCs don't seem rusty
Disco rear chassis extensions rust and sunroofs leak
Electronic
GCs have a few minor issues, Lo ratio select being common
Three Amigos on the disco
Availability
Lots of Discos to choose from
Less GCs about
Parts
Disco parts easy to get and cheap (but may need more of them?)
Jeep parts harder/more expensive to get
Specialists
Loads of people used to working on Discos
Jeep specialists who also understand the Merc motor are less common
Cost
Jeep is more expensive £5-7k typically
Disco in nice condition seems to be £4-6k
Aesthetics
We (the girlfriend and I) both prefer the aesthetics of the Disco. The Disco has more classic appeal
Interior
Leather Disco interiors seem to where well, they often have 7 seats which is a bonus when we have visiting family
The GC interior is more modern, but can look a little cheap.
Unsure on comfort of seats in either for a long trip
On road
Disco is live axle front and rear, slower and probably more ponderous, is it less comfy on a long trip?
GC is swifter, better for cruising/higher cruising speed, IFS so slightly comfier?
Off Road
GC has auto locking diffs front, centre and rear, Disco may have locking centre diff depending on year/model/options and relies on traction control to a degree, both are probably adequate for our needs (beach/slip ways and snow).
So what am I missing? And what should I go for? I'm probably going to continue looking at both locally (<100 miles) for now.
Ok, to cut a long story short, I thought I'd narrowed down our future dog vehicle/boat towing/snow vehicle as a Jeep Grand Cherokee WK 3.0 CRD.
However now I've the cash I'm struggling to find decent ones in Overland spec to look at that aren't at the other end of the country. Either they've seats that are falling apart, dodgy mileage history or oil leaks. So my thoughts keep going back to TD5 Discoveries...
So thinking out loud through my pros and cons am I missing anything:
Engine
GC has a 3.0 CRD 215bhp vs 135ish of TD5
GC has swirl issues and a few seem to be getting oil leaks. Easily remapped for more power. Longevity?
TD5 can have exhaust manifold issues, limited remap potential (up to 170 ish with intercooler?)
Rust
GCs don't seem rusty
Disco rear chassis extensions rust and sunroofs leak
Electronic
GCs have a few minor issues, Lo ratio select being common
Three Amigos on the disco
Availability
Lots of Discos to choose from
Less GCs about
Parts
Disco parts easy to get and cheap (but may need more of them?)
Jeep parts harder/more expensive to get
Specialists
Loads of people used to working on Discos
Jeep specialists who also understand the Merc motor are less common
Cost
Jeep is more expensive £5-7k typically
Disco in nice condition seems to be £4-6k
Aesthetics
We (the girlfriend and I) both prefer the aesthetics of the Disco. The Disco has more classic appeal
Interior
Leather Disco interiors seem to where well, they often have 7 seats which is a bonus when we have visiting family
The GC interior is more modern, but can look a little cheap.
Unsure on comfort of seats in either for a long trip
On road
Disco is live axle front and rear, slower and probably more ponderous, is it less comfy on a long trip?
GC is swifter, better for cruising/higher cruising speed, IFS so slightly comfier?
Off Road
GC has auto locking diffs front, centre and rear, Disco may have locking centre diff depending on year/model/options and relies on traction control to a degree, both are probably adequate for our needs (beach/slip ways and snow).
So what am I missing? And what should I go for? I'm probably going to continue looking at both locally (<100 miles) for now.
For me the key difference is going to be around what you use it for. Off-road banging it around, then Disco TD5. Mostly on-road with some off-road then Grand Cherokee every time. You will soon get very bored of the extremely slow TD5 when on-road.
My Grand Cherokee WK has done 109K miles, only issue so far is the front suspension ball-joints are on the way out, probably last another year or so. Great on-road, relaxing to drive, very comfortable.
My Grand Cherokee WK has done 109K miles, only issue so far is the front suspension ball-joints are on the way out, probably last another year or so. Great on-road, relaxing to drive, very comfortable.
No experience of the Disco
I've been running a WK Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD Overland for the past 2 years. In that time I've replaced a front wheel bearing and bushes in the front wishbones. The glow plugs are on their way out but don't appear to be too expensive to replace. No other issues to speak of. Mine is now on 84k.
It's a comfy big thing that can shift when it wants to. As far as a I know mine is standard with 215 bhp. I can only imagine 260 or so being a giggle.
5 or 6k will get you a decent one.
Edited to add, the side bolster of the drivers seat is prone to the fake leather splitting. It's not really a big issue and can be easily fixed. Access to the rear loading area is quite high. It might be an issue if you need to lift your dogs. Parts are easy enough to come by, from a dealer they can be expensive but there are plenty of alternatives and fixes that can be found on the net.
I quite like mine.
I've been running a WK Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD Overland for the past 2 years. In that time I've replaced a front wheel bearing and bushes in the front wishbones. The glow plugs are on their way out but don't appear to be too expensive to replace. No other issues to speak of. Mine is now on 84k.
It's a comfy big thing that can shift when it wants to. As far as a I know mine is standard with 215 bhp. I can only imagine 260 or so being a giggle.
5 or 6k will get you a decent one.
Edited to add, the side bolster of the drivers seat is prone to the fake leather splitting. It's not really a big issue and can be easily fixed. Access to the rear loading area is quite high. It might be an issue if you need to lift your dogs. Parts are easy enough to come by, from a dealer they can be expensive but there are plenty of alternatives and fixes that can be found on the net.
I quite like mine.
Edited by Terzo123 on Saturday 1st July 13:47
As a long-time owner of Disco TD5s who sometimes looks wistfully at Jeep's offerings (occasionally think about going for the GC 2.7 CRD or the later WK 3.0 CRD) - I can understand the temptation! Here is my thinking whenever I think about trading in/going over to the dark side.
- I would rate the diesel engines in the Jeeps as better - no doubt, no argument. More power for similar(ish) fuel consumption, none of the TD5 hiccups like head gasket failure, cracking heads or similar. The TD5 is good - but not as good as the Merc 2.7 or 3.0 when it comes to the number of issues to look out for. That genuinely pains me to say that.
- The auto-boxes also come from Merc - 722.6 units if I recall - these are used in lots of stuff in both Merc and Jeep/Chrysler models and if they give any grief there are plenty of people who can fix them or refurb them for you. You also avoid the DMF/Clutch issues that you might get with the TD5 - Discovery Autos are okay, some people have no issues with them, others hate them.
- Off-road ability is good - not quite as rugged and 'bashable' as a Disco - but pretty good for 99% of terrain in the UK. Air suspension and ACE systems on the Disco can be problematic - you either get a good one or bad one. Fixes are available for them however.
- The road manners of the Jeeps are quite good - they are high and roll a bit - but nothing compared to an LR of the same age if you hustle it. Driving the Discovery is not a sporty experience - it's like driving a small truck / tank - you're very much aware that you are in a big 2-tonne box of metal every time you go round a corner.
HOWEVER - I stop short of selling my LR and buying a Jeep when I consider the following:
Parts for LRs are stupidly cheap and easy to source. Whatever occurs to my Disco - I can order parts for it to arrive within 48 hours, fit them myself and still pay quite a bit less for them than a similar Jeep OEM part (which might be anything from 50% to 100% more). Even if I paid someone else to fit them (heresy!) - 99% of mechanics will have worked on a Disco of some kind at some point in their life - so it doesn't take long to do most jobs on them.
If you work on the principle that ANY vehicle more than 10 years old needs work/parts doing to it - then the costs of those parts and work for a UK-owner tends to come down in favour of the Landy. A second-hand rear diff for a WK jeep would be more than £200 to buy off ebay (they are electronically locking) - a similar rear diff for a Disco can be got for £50. Lots of old Disco's like mine (early D2 TD5) are still running around - precisely thanks to the fact that they can be run, fixed, run and fixed again fairly cost-effectively. People wouldn't hang on to them otherwise.
In the states, the roles would be reversed (running an LR over there can be wallet-hammering).
LRs are well understood. I'm biased, since I've spent virtually most of my life with them - however a TD5 Disco is a fairly simple bit of kit and I have encountered no issue that cannot be solved by a DIY mechanic. The engine is easy to work on (generally) and all the gubbins are easy to swap over with basic hand tools. Even the sometimes 'characterful' ABS system (3 amigos) is generally a duff sensor - which can be swapped over fairly quickly and cheaply.
I look at the V6 Diesel engines in WK Jeeps and it's like looking at the space shuttle by comparison - lots of sensors, variable turbocharging and emissions control systems. Half of it you can't reach thanks to the size of the thing in the engine bay - so it's a pain if you do any work yourself, and/or more labour costs for others to do it for you. In theory the Merc unit shouldn't go wrong half as much as a TD5 - but if it does go it could be quite a bit more expensive to remedy. They also have DPFs - which if you do lots of short trips might be a consideration that simply doesn't occur on the Disco.
The Disco is also positively roomy inside - my family and friends say it's like sitting in a small bus. You can lug lots of junk + a dog + family in one and still have room left over - the Jeep by comparison felt smaller inside than it looked on the outside and I felt lower to the ground. A top-spec ES Discovery is a very nice place to be compared to a Jeep WK, which can sometimes seem a bit plasticky. That's subjective though - a lower spec Discovery is quite basic and probably no better or worse than a lower-spec Jeep.
For me, the Jeep would be nicer to drive (esp. on the road) - the power and torque of that big Merc unit is nice, you get plenty of toys and comfort for your money. The Disco probably isn't as nice to drive on the tarmac or quite as refined, yet it's fairly easy to live with and maintain by comparison. It depends which of those priorities is more of an issue for you.
If my Disco blew up tomorrow - I'd go out and buy another one, end of story. However if a Jeep GC came up at the right price and spec....hmm.
- I would rate the diesel engines in the Jeeps as better - no doubt, no argument. More power for similar(ish) fuel consumption, none of the TD5 hiccups like head gasket failure, cracking heads or similar. The TD5 is good - but not as good as the Merc 2.7 or 3.0 when it comes to the number of issues to look out for. That genuinely pains me to say that.
- The auto-boxes also come from Merc - 722.6 units if I recall - these are used in lots of stuff in both Merc and Jeep/Chrysler models and if they give any grief there are plenty of people who can fix them or refurb them for you. You also avoid the DMF/Clutch issues that you might get with the TD5 - Discovery Autos are okay, some people have no issues with them, others hate them.
- Off-road ability is good - not quite as rugged and 'bashable' as a Disco - but pretty good for 99% of terrain in the UK. Air suspension and ACE systems on the Disco can be problematic - you either get a good one or bad one. Fixes are available for them however.
- The road manners of the Jeeps are quite good - they are high and roll a bit - but nothing compared to an LR of the same age if you hustle it. Driving the Discovery is not a sporty experience - it's like driving a small truck / tank - you're very much aware that you are in a big 2-tonne box of metal every time you go round a corner.
HOWEVER - I stop short of selling my LR and buying a Jeep when I consider the following:
Parts for LRs are stupidly cheap and easy to source. Whatever occurs to my Disco - I can order parts for it to arrive within 48 hours, fit them myself and still pay quite a bit less for them than a similar Jeep OEM part (which might be anything from 50% to 100% more). Even if I paid someone else to fit them (heresy!) - 99% of mechanics will have worked on a Disco of some kind at some point in their life - so it doesn't take long to do most jobs on them.
If you work on the principle that ANY vehicle more than 10 years old needs work/parts doing to it - then the costs of those parts and work for a UK-owner tends to come down in favour of the Landy. A second-hand rear diff for a WK jeep would be more than £200 to buy off ebay (they are electronically locking) - a similar rear diff for a Disco can be got for £50. Lots of old Disco's like mine (early D2 TD5) are still running around - precisely thanks to the fact that they can be run, fixed, run and fixed again fairly cost-effectively. People wouldn't hang on to them otherwise.
In the states, the roles would be reversed (running an LR over there can be wallet-hammering).
LRs are well understood. I'm biased, since I've spent virtually most of my life with them - however a TD5 Disco is a fairly simple bit of kit and I have encountered no issue that cannot be solved by a DIY mechanic. The engine is easy to work on (generally) and all the gubbins are easy to swap over with basic hand tools. Even the sometimes 'characterful' ABS system (3 amigos) is generally a duff sensor - which can be swapped over fairly quickly and cheaply.
I look at the V6 Diesel engines in WK Jeeps and it's like looking at the space shuttle by comparison - lots of sensors, variable turbocharging and emissions control systems. Half of it you can't reach thanks to the size of the thing in the engine bay - so it's a pain if you do any work yourself, and/or more labour costs for others to do it for you. In theory the Merc unit shouldn't go wrong half as much as a TD5 - but if it does go it could be quite a bit more expensive to remedy. They also have DPFs - which if you do lots of short trips might be a consideration that simply doesn't occur on the Disco.
The Disco is also positively roomy inside - my family and friends say it's like sitting in a small bus. You can lug lots of junk + a dog + family in one and still have room left over - the Jeep by comparison felt smaller inside than it looked on the outside and I felt lower to the ground. A top-spec ES Discovery is a very nice place to be compared to a Jeep WK, which can sometimes seem a bit plasticky. That's subjective though - a lower spec Discovery is quite basic and probably no better or worse than a lower-spec Jeep.
For me, the Jeep would be nicer to drive (esp. on the road) - the power and torque of that big Merc unit is nice, you get plenty of toys and comfort for your money. The Disco probably isn't as nice to drive on the tarmac or quite as refined, yet it's fairly easy to live with and maintain by comparison. It depends which of those priorities is more of an issue for you.
If my Disco blew up tomorrow - I'd go out and buy another one, end of story. However if a Jeep GC came up at the right price and spec....hmm.
sparkythecat said:
Aren't the Mercedes engines used in Jeeps the same ones that are flogged to death, day in ,day out, by White Van Man in his Sprinter van ?
They must be pretty reliable, as their popularity doesn't seem to wane.
One and the same (2.7 Diesel). I think the 3.0 V6 Diesel is the same one as used in the E and S Class of the same era as well - so the engines are pretty modern and powerful units. They must be pretty reliable, as their popularity doesn't seem to wane.
The guy I lift share with is selling a Grand Cherokee at the moment if Manchester isn't too far away for you. He's getting rid as one of his mates has sold him an Alfa 159 which he's always fancied. It's immaculate and he's fastidious about keeping his cars in order. I can pass on his details if you want more info it's a metallic grey on an 08 plate. I don't know the full spec but it has Satnav and a rear screen/dvd so I imagine it's a decent spec.
As I said in your other thread, you might want to keep an eye out for a 5.7 Hemi instead of the CRD.
And you may want to read up on the differences between Quada Trac and Quada Drive. If you aren't planning on off roading, then it doesn't really matter. But if you are, then you may want to know how and why they differ.
Mildly modded WK's look awesome, just a small lift and some bigger tyres really.
And you may want to read up on the differences between Quada Trac and Quada Drive. If you aren't planning on off roading, then it doesn't really matter. But if you are, then you may want to know how and why they differ.
Mildly modded WK's look awesome, just a small lift and some bigger tyres really.
pcn1 said:
Very happy with my WJ 2.7crd.
The early Wk's are known as a bit plastciky in the interior department, this was improved with the facelift M2's around 2011 I think, but they cost a way load more.
Which year did they move over to the FIAT V6 ?
When they changed from the WH to the WK,The early Wk's are known as a bit plastciky in the interior department, this was improved with the facelift M2's around 2011 I think, but they cost a way load more.
Which year did they move over to the FIAT V6 ?
WH has the merc 3.0 CRD
WK has the 3.0 VM unit
I drove my friends '06 Overland Grand Cherokee last night and (compared to my VW T4 van) it felt remarkably car like to drive, not that high. One thing I did notice that the boot actually isn't that big given the high floor and relatively low roof. It did pull well coming up the bank from Runswick Bay though! So still undecided.
Edited by TiminYorkshire on Tuesday 4th July 11:00
TiminYorkshire said:
Off to look at a GC tomorrow
Please let us know the outcome. I've got a lease car going back in November and I'm looking at the '07 Grand Cherokee as a replacement. I've never had a big 4x4 before and I quite like the idea of it. Although they don't seem to excel in any particular way, they seem like the perfect combination of price, reliability, toys, comfort and performance.Given my other vehicles are a VW T4 van and a MX5 Mk1 on coil overs I think it will be different, as you say covering a wide set of bases without being the best in any one category (it should be faster/comfier than the van, comfier than the MX5, better at towing than the van, more refined than both etc...).
We'll see how tomorrow's viewing goes...
We'll see how tomorrow's viewing goes...
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