Offroader as a fun 2nd car?
Discussion
So I've been intending to get a second car for fun. I've got a hatchback for commuting that's fine but not interesting.
I've recently got to drive a couple of Land Rovers (on the road). I drove my boss's defender 110, which was brand new with less than 2k miles on it (the Puma engine), and I also got to drive a Discovery 3 TDV6 manual (coil springs). Both on long 2 hour journeys. I quite enjoyed them so I thought of getting an offroader as a second car.
I've read a lot of useful threads on here but I'm still not sure what to get. For me the most important thing is reliability. I want to leave it parked most of the week and use it at the weekend without worrying about it breaking down. I know you have to do preventative maintenance but surprise problems would be a big issue. I've got nowhere really to work on a car and so haven't invested in many tools either. As I'd be paying others to fix it I don't want to end up with big bills.
I feel drawn to the most capable vehicles, not because I need capability but because they are most different from a car and so more interesting. I'd probably want to try greenlaning with a group, and drive in snow if we have any. I don't think I'd do any extreme offroading like you get at pay & play places. I know this suggests something less capable but then it won't be agricultural and interesting enough. E.g. a Subaru Forester is too much like a car.
Budget is around £2k to £4k.
I liked defenders but seem too likely to have problems especially in my budget. Same for all Land Rovers I think.
I thought about Suzuki Jimny but the engine is too small for my taste.
Landcruisers seem reliable but hard to find a good one at that budget?
Can anyone help with suggestions? Thanks in advance
I've recently got to drive a couple of Land Rovers (on the road). I drove my boss's defender 110, which was brand new with less than 2k miles on it (the Puma engine), and I also got to drive a Discovery 3 TDV6 manual (coil springs). Both on long 2 hour journeys. I quite enjoyed them so I thought of getting an offroader as a second car.
I've read a lot of useful threads on here but I'm still not sure what to get. For me the most important thing is reliability. I want to leave it parked most of the week and use it at the weekend without worrying about it breaking down. I know you have to do preventative maintenance but surprise problems would be a big issue. I've got nowhere really to work on a car and so haven't invested in many tools either. As I'd be paying others to fix it I don't want to end up with big bills.
I feel drawn to the most capable vehicles, not because I need capability but because they are most different from a car and so more interesting. I'd probably want to try greenlaning with a group, and drive in snow if we have any. I don't think I'd do any extreme offroading like you get at pay & play places. I know this suggests something less capable but then it won't be agricultural and interesting enough. E.g. a Subaru Forester is too much like a car.
Budget is around £2k to £4k.
I liked defenders but seem too likely to have problems especially in my budget. Same for all Land Rovers I think.
I thought about Suzuki Jimny but the engine is too small for my taste.
Landcruisers seem reliable but hard to find a good one at that budget?
Can anyone help with suggestions? Thanks in advance
Essay incoming (it's raining outside).
£2-4K doesn't really buy you much of a Defender - even if it did the example would likely be ropey and knackered for that price - the values of them have gone through the roof due to people buying them as fashion accessories.
If you want pretty much 90% of the capability in a slightly bigger package, then a Disco 1 or Disco 2 would be within your budget - however these require a proactive approach to maintenance if you want to avoid a wallet-bashing. Basic spanner skills would be a bonus and it would be worth learning how to do basic servicing (oil change, air filter change) to save yourself some money. 4x4s are more complex beasties than cars and they do punish a lack of maintenance eventually.
Discovery 1 is more agricultural (tractor with four seats) and ultimately simpler/less to go wrong. There are pristine, low mileage examples out there - just watch for bodywork rot. The engines just need regular servicing/oil changes and will give you little trouble. You could get a nice one for 2K.
A Discovery 2 in high-spec will be almost as comfortable as a Range Rover - while still having the capability to tackle 99% of off-road terrain in the UK. Bigger and better than D1 in my opinion - like a 2.2 tonne swiss army knife - but also more complex and complicated thanks to the Td5 diesel and various additional systems like air suspension and ACE. (pro tip - get a poverty spec E or S model without these gubbins).
I'm guessing a Freelander would be a bit too 'car-like' - similar to a Forester or X-Trail. Stick a set of decent tyres on one and it'll still punch above it's weight on most green lanes - they are more capable than people think.
Outside of Land Rover you have the various Jeeps. ZJ or WJ Grand Cherokees are pretty good value compared to their LR equivalent (Discovery 1 and 2 respectively) - the engines are all pretty good (go for the V8 - you know it makes sense). The one thing that had put me off them is that they are mainly in automatic form (ZJs do come in manual but are not common) - but I do find myself looking at WJs when the Disco is going through a 'phase' of playing up.
Then there is the Japanese route.
Nissans are a bit weedy compared to what they used to produce. In your budget you could get a Patrol (unrefined tank) Terrano (unrefined tank) or X-Trail (*insert expletive here*).
Toyota Land Cruisers are expensive for what they are. They're good - no doubt - but overpriced compared to a LR or Jeep of the same age and condition. If you drive one - then go in a Discovery of the same era - the LR product is nicer to drive, nicer to look at (inside and out), more economical, cheaper parts and generally 'nicer' - even if not 100% as reliable. Hilux pickups are also expensive (farmer's weapon-of-choice) - but utterly bombproof. Depends how 'agricultural' you want the experience to be.
Mitsubishi get a good shout - L200 pickups are a bit slow but ultimately capable - (a few head gasket issues on the diesels). Shoguns are a Discovery/Jeep WJ alternative - but a bit to beloved of those who do..... scrap metal collecting. Nice enough, but thirsty and not quite as reliable as the Japanese build quality myth would have you believe.
Have no experience of Suzukis - I think they're a bit daft when it comes to the smaller ones (Jimny).
KIA do the Sorento - which is a bit of a time-warp vehicle. It's big and pretty well put together - uses the old separate chassis/body design and is pretty good off-road. Not driven one - but have seen them at work and their performance is nothing to sniff at.
That's a couple of ideas based on personal experience. All of the options above will tackle green lanes without modification from factory spec (most off-roaders overspec their machines anyway - decent tyres are the main thing). The main issue you need to remember is that most 4x4s in your price range will be over a decade old and WILL need some kind of running maintenance and tinkering to keep them happy. Even basic tools like a set of spanners and a Haynes manual will enable you to look after them - a little knowledge can save you money in the long run.
Just my two pennies.
Now..... I've got to go wait for a gap in the weather and sort out some troublesome prop UJs....
£2-4K doesn't really buy you much of a Defender - even if it did the example would likely be ropey and knackered for that price - the values of them have gone through the roof due to people buying them as fashion accessories.
If you want pretty much 90% of the capability in a slightly bigger package, then a Disco 1 or Disco 2 would be within your budget - however these require a proactive approach to maintenance if you want to avoid a wallet-bashing. Basic spanner skills would be a bonus and it would be worth learning how to do basic servicing (oil change, air filter change) to save yourself some money. 4x4s are more complex beasties than cars and they do punish a lack of maintenance eventually.
Discovery 1 is more agricultural (tractor with four seats) and ultimately simpler/less to go wrong. There are pristine, low mileage examples out there - just watch for bodywork rot. The engines just need regular servicing/oil changes and will give you little trouble. You could get a nice one for 2K.
A Discovery 2 in high-spec will be almost as comfortable as a Range Rover - while still having the capability to tackle 99% of off-road terrain in the UK. Bigger and better than D1 in my opinion - like a 2.2 tonne swiss army knife - but also more complex and complicated thanks to the Td5 diesel and various additional systems like air suspension and ACE. (pro tip - get a poverty spec E or S model without these gubbins).
I'm guessing a Freelander would be a bit too 'car-like' - similar to a Forester or X-Trail. Stick a set of decent tyres on one and it'll still punch above it's weight on most green lanes - they are more capable than people think.
Outside of Land Rover you have the various Jeeps. ZJ or WJ Grand Cherokees are pretty good value compared to their LR equivalent (Discovery 1 and 2 respectively) - the engines are all pretty good (go for the V8 - you know it makes sense). The one thing that had put me off them is that they are mainly in automatic form (ZJs do come in manual but are not common) - but I do find myself looking at WJs when the Disco is going through a 'phase' of playing up.
Then there is the Japanese route.
Nissans are a bit weedy compared to what they used to produce. In your budget you could get a Patrol (unrefined tank) Terrano (unrefined tank) or X-Trail (*insert expletive here*).
Toyota Land Cruisers are expensive for what they are. They're good - no doubt - but overpriced compared to a LR or Jeep of the same age and condition. If you drive one - then go in a Discovery of the same era - the LR product is nicer to drive, nicer to look at (inside and out), more economical, cheaper parts and generally 'nicer' - even if not 100% as reliable. Hilux pickups are also expensive (farmer's weapon-of-choice) - but utterly bombproof. Depends how 'agricultural' you want the experience to be.
Mitsubishi get a good shout - L200 pickups are a bit slow but ultimately capable - (a few head gasket issues on the diesels). Shoguns are a Discovery/Jeep WJ alternative - but a bit to beloved of those who do..... scrap metal collecting. Nice enough, but thirsty and not quite as reliable as the Japanese build quality myth would have you believe.
Have no experience of Suzukis - I think they're a bit daft when it comes to the smaller ones (Jimny).
KIA do the Sorento - which is a bit of a time-warp vehicle. It's big and pretty well put together - uses the old separate chassis/body design and is pretty good off-road. Not driven one - but have seen them at work and their performance is nothing to sniff at.
That's a couple of ideas based on personal experience. All of the options above will tackle green lanes without modification from factory spec (most off-roaders overspec their machines anyway - decent tyres are the main thing). The main issue you need to remember is that most 4x4s in your price range will be over a decade old and WILL need some kind of running maintenance and tinkering to keep them happy. Even basic tools like a set of spanners and a Haynes manual will enable you to look after them - a little knowledge can save you money in the long run.
Just my two pennies.
Now..... I've got to go wait for a gap in the weather and sort out some troublesome prop UJs....
Thanks for the long considered response LandRoverManiac. Some good ideas. When I said I haven't got anywhere to work on a car I meant that my drive is steeply sloped and surfaced with loose gravel. I can't jack a car up on it. Can the running maintenance be performed with the vehicle sitting on all 4 wheels with the handbrake on? Also I seem to find very few free weekends at the moment and it's always dark after work. This makes me think I'm going to struggle if something needs fixing every month.
What are my other options? Would Toyota although expensive need less time putting into maintenance? Or Isuzu as you suggested Zed 44?
Thanks for the help.
What are my other options? Would Toyota although expensive need less time putting into maintenance? Or Isuzu as you suggested Zed 44?
Thanks for the help.
Anything can and does break.
Nothing wrong with a Jimny, engine is plenty for the type of vehicle.
Jeep and Land Rover are likely to be the most entertaining and out of the box capable.
You'll probably get a YJ or maybe even TJ Wrangler in budget. Cherokee XJ or Grand Cherokee highly worth considering on vfm basis.
If you want real utility feeling, try a Series 3 Land Rover.
Nothing wrong with a Jimny, engine is plenty for the type of vehicle.
Jeep and Land Rover are likely to be the most entertaining and out of the box capable.
You'll probably get a YJ or maybe even TJ Wrangler in budget. Cherokee XJ or Grand Cherokee highly worth considering on vfm basis.
If you want real utility feeling, try a Series 3 Land Rover.
One thing, all proper 4x4's will not really exceed much more than 25-27mpg if you go for the frugal and usually underpowered engine option.
If you aren't doing more than 4000 miles a year in this. Then a petrol powered variant will likely cost almost the same to fuel. Or at least close enough not to worry.
Personally, I'd say go for a nice 4 litre Cherokee XJ. Not much longer than a Defender 90, but seating for 5 and a good boot. Facelift ones are galvanised. They are as good as a Defender off road pretty much. And better on it.
You won't need £4k to buy one either. But it means you could buy one, slap a 2" budget boost lift on and some nice 31.10.50 tyres. It'll be super capable on and off road and give all the thrills of a Tonka Toy and off roader to drive.
If you aren't doing more than 4000 miles a year in this. Then a petrol powered variant will likely cost almost the same to fuel. Or at least close enough not to worry.
Personally, I'd say go for a nice 4 litre Cherokee XJ. Not much longer than a Defender 90, but seating for 5 and a good boot. Facelift ones are galvanised. They are as good as a Defender off road pretty much. And better on it.
You won't need £4k to buy one either. But it means you could buy one, slap a 2" budget boost lift on and some nice 31.10.50 tyres. It'll be super capable on and off road and give all the thrills of a Tonka Toy and off roader to drive.
300bhp/ton said:
Anything can and does break.
I think what you're saying is that no vehicle of this age is going to be reliable enough for me and I should wait until I have the time to tinker with it every other weekend? If not, I like most of your suggestions so which do you think has the lowest potential for things going wrong?
I don't expect to do more than 5000 miles a year, have another car. I'll look at petrols too as you advise. Are they as fun and truck-feeling to drive as the diesels I've tried?
Thanks for the all replies btw, they are all helpful and you don't always get that on forums.
300bhp/ton said:
Personally, I'd say go for a nice 4 litre Cherokee XJ. Not much longer than a Defender 90, but seating for 5 and a good boot. Facelift ones are galvanised. They are as good as a Defender off road pretty much. And better on it.
You won't need £4k to buy one either. But it means you could buy one, slap a 2" budget boost lift on and some nice 31.10.50 tyres. It'll be super capable on and off road and give all the thrills of a Tonka Toy and off roader to drive.
That simply looks awesome! Is that a facelift model? What sort of money will something like this go for?You won't need £4k to buy one either. But it means you could buy one, slap a 2" budget boost lift on and some nice 31.10.50 tyres. It'll be super capable on and off road and give all the thrills of a Tonka Toy and off roader to drive.
Language said:
I think what you're saying is that no vehicle of this age is going to be reliable enough for me and I should wait until I have the time to tinker with it every other weekend?
I'm more saying that I don't really think what make/model you get to a larger extent. It doesn't matter what company built it, they can all suffer some issues.As for tinkering, it's really up to you. If you have no where to do it, then it sort of seals the deal. But you might end up having to pay people to do relatively simple jobs. But this could be true of many car types, not just 4x4's. Although many of the more rugged 4x4's like Land Rover's and Jeeps, are usually fairly easy to work on.
Language said:
If not, I like most of your suggestions so which do you think has the lowest potential for things going wrong?
I don't expect to do more than 5000 miles a year, have another car. I'll look at petrols too as you advise. Are they as fun and truck-feeling to drive as the diesels I've tried?
Thanks for the all replies btw, they are all helpful and you don't always get that on forums.
Petrols drive great.I don't expect to do more than 5000 miles a year, have another car. I'll look at petrols too as you advise. Are they as fun and truck-feeling to drive as the diesels I've tried?
Thanks for the all replies btw, they are all helpful and you don't always get that on forums.
flux said:
That simply looks awesome! Is that a facelift model? What sort of money will something like this go for?
Thanks. No it's a preface model, although they look very very similar. The indicators are the easiest thing to spot for the facelift model. They are under the headlamp, as opposed to the side of the headlamp.
As for price, generally you can pick them up for peanuts. I've not looked in a while, but there used to be loads sub £1k. And a £2k budget would give you loads of choice.
There are essentially 3 main models.
2.5 VM diesel
2.5 4 pot petrol
4.0 litre straight 6 petrol
The 4.0 litre is auto only in the UK. But it suits it and goes very very well. 190hp and will do 0-60mph in 8 and a bit seconds. They'll return 17-23mpg pretty easily. They can also run 2wd high range, 4wd high range open diff, 4wd high range locked diff and 4wd low range locked diff. Which is pretty cool.
The VM diesel often gets a bad rap, but is probably unfair. It's actually a good engine, but parts are a bit rare and pricey for it. Same engine was used in a Range Rover, Rover cars and some Fords as well as others. It's actually a marine engine used in lots of boats.
The 2.5P is actually not a bad engine. It'll be faster than a Tdi Land Rover, but more revvy and less low end grunt. MPG is only marginally better than 4.0 litre however.
The two 2.5's use a different transfer box and only have 4x2 and 4x4 + low. So you can't run them in 4wd on the road (unless snowy). This is the same for most Jap trucks however.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 13th December 09:02
Jimny's are great and the little 1.3 petrol engine is surprisingly good. You can read about the exploits with mine here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=160...
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Rarely / never tinker with it..
OK, some bills (full front to back exhaust last month - £180) and you have to uses your senses to pick up nuances, but tinkering is low.
Paddy, don't suppose you want all the bits to make that into a bit of a monster? I've got a 3.1td that's got all the modifications but long standing fuelling issues. I don't want to throw any more money at it. OK, some bills (full front to back exhaust last month - £180) and you have to uses your senses to pick up nuances, but tinkering is low.
300bhp/ton said:
Thanks. No it's a preface model, although they look very very similar. The indicators are the easiest thing to spot for the facelift model. They are under the headlamp, as opposed to the side of the headlamp.
As for price, generally you can pick them up for peanuts. I've not looked in a while, but there used to be loads sub £1k. And a £2k budget would give you loads of choice.
There are essentially 3 main models.
2.5 VM diesel
2.5 4 pot petrol
4.0 litre straight 6 petrol
The 4.0 litre is auto only in the UK. But it suits it and goes very very well. 190hp and will do 0-60mph in 8 and a bit seconds. They'll return 17-23mpg pretty easily. They can also run 2wd high range, 4wd high range open diff, 4wd high range locked diff and 4wd low range locked diff. Which is pretty cool.
The VM diesel often gets a bad rap, but is probably unfair. It's actually a good engine, but parts are a bit rare and pricey for it. Same engine was used in a Range Rover, Rover cars and some Fords as well as others. It's actually a marine engine used in lots of boats.
The 2.5P is actually not a bad engine. It'll be faster than a Tdi Land Rover, but more revvy and less low end grunt. MPG is only marginally better than 4.0 litre however.
The two 2.5's use a different transfer box and only have 4x2 and 4x4 + low. So you can't run them in 4wd on the road (unless snowy). This is the same for most Jap trucks however.
Thanks for the info 300bhp/ton!As for price, generally you can pick them up for peanuts. I've not looked in a while, but there used to be loads sub £1k. And a £2k budget would give you loads of choice.
There are essentially 3 main models.
2.5 VM diesel
2.5 4 pot petrol
4.0 litre straight 6 petrol
The 4.0 litre is auto only in the UK. But it suits it and goes very very well. 190hp and will do 0-60mph in 8 and a bit seconds. They'll return 17-23mpg pretty easily. They can also run 2wd high range, 4wd high range open diff, 4wd high range locked diff and 4wd low range locked diff. Which is pretty cool.
The VM diesel often gets a bad rap, but is probably unfair. It's actually a good engine, but parts are a bit rare and pricey for it. Same engine was used in a Range Rover, Rover cars and some Fords as well as others. It's actually a marine engine used in lots of boats.
The 2.5P is actually not a bad engine. It'll be faster than a Tdi Land Rover, but more revvy and less low end grunt. MPG is only marginally better than 4.0 litre however.
The two 2.5's use a different transfer box and only have 4x2 and 4x4 + low. So you can't run them in 4wd on the road (unless snowy). This is the same for most Jap trucks however.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 13th December 09:02
300bhp/ton said:
One thing, all proper 4x4's will not really exceed much more than 25-27mpg if you go for the frugal and usually underpowered engine option.
If you aren't doing more than 4000 miles a year in this. Then a petrol powered variant will likely cost almost the same to fuel. Or at least close enough not to worry.
Personally, I'd say go for a nice 4 litre Cherokee XJ. Not much longer than a Defender 90, but seating for 5 and a good boot. Facelift ones are galvanised. They are as good as a Defender off road pretty much. And better on it.
You won't need £4k to buy one either. But it means you could buy one, slap a 2" budget boost lift on and some nice 31.10.50 tyres. It'll be super capable on and off road and give all the thrills of a Tonka Toy and off roader to drive.
How does the Grand Cherokee ZJ compare? I'm seeing more of those available on eBay at the moment. Most of the XJs seem to be diesel not the 4.0 petrol.If you aren't doing more than 4000 miles a year in this. Then a petrol powered variant will likely cost almost the same to fuel. Or at least close enough not to worry.
Personally, I'd say go for a nice 4 litre Cherokee XJ. Not much longer than a Defender 90, but seating for 5 and a good boot. Facelift ones are galvanised. They are as good as a Defender off road pretty much. And better on it.
You won't need £4k to buy one either. But it means you could buy one, slap a 2" budget boost lift on and some nice 31.10.50 tyres. It'll be super capable on and off road and give all the thrills of a Tonka Toy and off roader to drive.
I'm seeing some Troopers for sale as well. Is the 3.0 prone to problems?
Thanks for all the help, there's a lot of knowledgeable replies.
I like the Grand Cherokee, it's a slightly larger, plusher vehicle. But still more compact than a Discovery 1.
This translates to a slightly more roomy cabin and more refinement, but still a proper capable 4x4. They do weigh a little more, so the 4.0 litre is the base model engine. It's goes well enough, but a little less spritely than the Cherokee.
V8's are nice though.
Visually I like the ZJ's better than the WJ's. But both good vehicles. And look awesome with a lift and some mud tyres.
This translates to a slightly more roomy cabin and more refinement, but still a proper capable 4x4. They do weigh a little more, so the 4.0 litre is the base model engine. It's goes well enough, but a little less spritely than the Cherokee.
V8's are nice though.
Visually I like the ZJ's better than the WJ's. But both good vehicles. And look awesome with a lift and some mud tyres.
The 3.0 trooper is seen as problematic amongst purists. There's a good amount of people who have swapped it out in favour of the 3.1.
The 3.1 is a proper old school push rod engine. No electronics running anything, and usually very reliable.
I cannot get the fuelling system to be happy on mine but that's more due to no one wanting to spend any time with some spanners and oily hands - most people down here just want to plug a car in to diagnose any problem.
When it does run, it pulls like a train.
The 3.1 is a proper old school push rod engine. No electronics running anything, and usually very reliable.
I cannot get the fuelling system to be happy on mine but that's more due to no one wanting to spend any time with some spanners and oily hands - most people down here just want to plug a car in to diagnose any problem.
When it does run, it pulls like a train.
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