Defender 110 VS Toyota Land Cruuser?
Discussion
Hi all,
I'm buying another 4x4 for green laning , towing and getting out and about in crappy weather. My last was a mint 300tdi Defender 110 with some tasty, but not OTT, modifications.
Have any of you had first hand experience of the Colorado or Amazon VX offerings? On road I suspect they are far nicer to drive, however, I'm really interested in off road ability, wading ability and ease of DIY maintenance.
Cheers,
PHH.
Oh, and budget is circa 9k
I'm buying another 4x4 for green laning , towing and getting out and about in crappy weather. My last was a mint 300tdi Defender 110 with some tasty, but not OTT, modifications.
Have any of you had first hand experience of the Colorado or Amazon VX offerings? On road I suspect they are far nicer to drive, however, I'm really interested in off road ability, wading ability and ease of DIY maintenance.
Cheers,
PHH.
Oh, and budget is circa 9k
9K will buy you more Toyota than Land Rover. Defender prices have gone up due to the end of production and people seemingly willing to pay lots of money for what they think is a trendy icon to impress the neighbours. I'm glad I don't have one at the moment simply due to the numbers being nicked (thanks to barmy market values) - that's another unwelcome factor in your equation. Land Cruisers aren't quite so desirable in those terms.
I haven't owned a Land Cruiser - but from second-hand experience of those who have you'll find that parts are more expensive and some of the more obscure bits are harder to source. Japanese trucks are probably more consistent in terms of working every day, starting on the button without fail - but when they let go they can be a right pig to sort out. I should state that Toyotas are generally better than the candidates I've had to help fix (Mitsubishis + Nissans).
With a Landy on the other hand you have vast availability of parts (if money were no object you could virtually build one just from buying aftermarket/second hand bits off ebay. Supply and demand dictates that the parts are affordable as well - if you can do your own spanner-work then they can be run on a tight budget in a way that you can't really do with a similarly aged Nissan or Toyota.
If you've owned one before you'll also be familiar with the common gripes (cough - rust - cough) and the 'experience' of living with one. They are easy to work on, pretty simple mechanically speaking (even in TD5 form) and there are no unknown issues that you will experience that a quick internet search will not solve - fixing them and keeping them going is common knowledge.
The Toyota would probably be nicer to drive yes, but would it be quite as much fun?
(Bear in mind - I am catastrophically biased in favour of the LR route - selling my Defender just before the price boom has left me kicking myself ever since.)
I haven't owned a Land Cruiser - but from second-hand experience of those who have you'll find that parts are more expensive and some of the more obscure bits are harder to source. Japanese trucks are probably more consistent in terms of working every day, starting on the button without fail - but when they let go they can be a right pig to sort out. I should state that Toyotas are generally better than the candidates I've had to help fix (Mitsubishis + Nissans).
With a Landy on the other hand you have vast availability of parts (if money were no object you could virtually build one just from buying aftermarket/second hand bits off ebay. Supply and demand dictates that the parts are affordable as well - if you can do your own spanner-work then they can be run on a tight budget in a way that you can't really do with a similarly aged Nissan or Toyota.
If you've owned one before you'll also be familiar with the common gripes (cough - rust - cough) and the 'experience' of living with one. They are easy to work on, pretty simple mechanically speaking (even in TD5 form) and there are no unknown issues that you will experience that a quick internet search will not solve - fixing them and keeping them going is common knowledge.
The Toyota would probably be nicer to drive yes, but would it be quite as much fun?
(Bear in mind - I am catastrophically biased in favour of the LR route - selling my Defender just before the price boom has left me kicking myself ever since.)
Edited by LandRoverManiac on Thursday 1st December 17:45
I have an older Colorado (2001).
It is my every day drive, which is why I bought it.
As above parts can be a bit expensive, I paid £80 for a wing mirror glass from Toyota as I couldn't find an aftermarket supplier that came with the backing plate.
I have had a couple of (cheap) Dicoveries and it is in a different league IMO.
It starts every time and bits don't fall off it when you drive it
I would have a Defender as a second car purely because of the romantic appeal but wouldn't choose one over a Landcruiser.
It is my every day drive, which is why I bought it.
As above parts can be a bit expensive, I paid £80 for a wing mirror glass from Toyota as I couldn't find an aftermarket supplier that came with the backing plate.
I have had a couple of (cheap) Dicoveries and it is in a different league IMO.
It starts every time and bits don't fall off it when you drive it
I would have a Defender as a second car purely because of the romantic appeal but wouldn't choose one over a Landcruiser.
I own a Defender 110 and a Land Cruiser.
It's actually our second Land Cruiser - the first one was knackered by a river crossing that went a bit wrong.
If I want a comfortable ride, ease of parking, good in town and multi-story car parks I take the Land Cruiser.
If I am going off-road I take the Defender.
To be fair, it is a lot about a manual box vs an auto, mud vs all terrain tyres, steel bumpers vs plastic trim, and my Defender has a lot of extra kit - winch, snorkel, spotlights, etc.
It's actually our second Land Cruiser - the first one was knackered by a river crossing that went a bit wrong.
If I want a comfortable ride, ease of parking, good in town and multi-story car parks I take the Land Cruiser.
If I am going off-road I take the Defender.
To be fair, it is a lot about a manual box vs an auto, mud vs all terrain tyres, steel bumpers vs plastic trim, and my Defender has a lot of extra kit - winch, snorkel, spotlights, etc.
Edited by Ayahuasca on Sunday 4th December 19:25
I have a hilux its one of a long line for me since the late 80s always been good and the newest one is good apart from we've been sold short ours has a 150 hp 2.4 and other markets get the better more powerful 2.8 ,
my advice is go with what you like you can always try something else if you don't get on with your first choice
Ive only owned one landrover will never have another , Ive done a fair bit of off roading and trials with hiluxes and suzuki's good luck and have fun ....
my advice is go with what you like you can always try something else if you don't get on with your first choice
Ive only owned one landrover will never have another , Ive done a fair bit of off roading and trials with hiluxes and suzuki's good luck and have fun ....
PotHoleHater said:
Hi all,
I'm buying another 4x4 for green laning , towing and getting out and about in crappy weather. My last was a mint 300tdi Defender 110 with some tasty, but not OTT, modifications.
Have any of you had first hand experience of the Colorado or Amazon VX offerings? On road I suspect they are far nicer to drive, however, I'm really interested in off road ability, wading ability and ease of DIY maintenance.
Cheers,
PHH.
Oh, and budget is circa 9k
I think it depends what you are wanting as your end result.I'm buying another 4x4 for green laning , towing and getting out and about in crappy weather. My last was a mint 300tdi Defender 110 with some tasty, but not OTT, modifications.
Have any of you had first hand experience of the Colorado or Amazon VX offerings? On road I suspect they are far nicer to drive, however, I'm really interested in off road ability, wading ability and ease of DIY maintenance.
Cheers,
PHH.
Oh, and budget is circa 9k
The Toyota's are nice vehicles. But big bumpers front and rear and more street style SUV styling, means they are probably are greater risk to damage off road. I think they are also a fair chunk wider, so not such a good thing for many UK green lanes.
On the road I'd expect a Defender 110 to drive better in many ways. Although it's important not to confuse interior comfort and NVH with how well a vehicles runs on the road.
A Defender will always be compromised in terms of NVH and interior passenger space.
Other plus things for the Defender, lots more hauling and better seating room for lots of passengers. Plus an interior that is far more friendly to muddy boots and wet weather. The Toyota's are more like Range Rover/Discovery type vehicles with carpets and nice trim. Which means climbing in and out cover in mud can make a real mess of the interior.
LR prices are bit crazy at present. Probably means good residuals, or at least until or if the bubble bursts on them. But it does mean you don't get very good VFM when buying them.
An alternative option would be a Santana PS-10.
It's very very similar to a 110, uses many of the same parts. This is because Santana used to assembly CKD Land Rover's for Land Rover. But they also did their own development and expanded the product range.
The PS-10 was the last of these. It's actually a 109 but runs a 2.8 Iveco Diesel engine and can be run in 4wd or 2wd on the road. Has a larger tailgate so you can get a pallet in the back, different interior with no seat boxes and lots of other little changes.
You can clearly see the Land Rover linage in them:
The best thing is, you can pick them up on a 2005-07 plate for £4-6k, about half the price of a Td5 110.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2007-57-Land-Rover-Santa...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Santana-PS10-2-8TD-7st-P...
If you are talking about an 80 series Landcruiser then it will walk ALL over a stock 110, and in similar nodded firm too.
A 100 series is closer to a range rover and not quite the same thing.
I had 8 range rovers, a stage 1 v8, a 90 v8 and a 110 td5
The cruiser left them in the dust, the main reason is that the drive train is an order of magnitude stronger. I ran 35 mud terrains on the 89
A 100 series is closer to a range rover and not quite the same thing.
I had 8 range rovers, a stage 1 v8, a 90 v8 and a 110 td5
The cruiser left them in the dust, the main reason is that the drive train is an order of magnitude stronger. I ran 35 mud terrains on the 89
PugwasHDJ80 said:
If you are talking about an 80 series Landcruiser then it will walk ALL over a stock 110, and in similar nodded firm too.
I would need to see that to believe it. The 80 Series is a fat old thing with lots of body work and big bumpers, suspect it would be horrid driving amongst the trees. Not knocking it, I know it should be capable, but walk all over. I doubt very much.300bhp/ton said:
PugwasHDJ80 said:
If you are talking about an 80 series Landcruiser then it will walk ALL over a stock 110, and in similar nodded firm too.
I would need to see that to believe it. The 80 Series is a fat old thing with lots of body work and big bumpers, suspect it would be horrid driving amongst the trees. Not knocking it, I know it should be capable, but walk all over. I doubt very much.But have a look here http://www.4x4adventures.co.uk/_main/_reports09/09...
This is a Winch challenge event with some speed sections. I was in an 80 series with no Winch, a 2" lift and 33" muds and totally standard body. I was car 29. A v8 90 with 2 winches placed ahead of me, everything else was seriously molded.
We placed 9th out of 30 vehicles including beating 4 in mod class (ie tray back, simex, 3 winches, etc etc)
The key is that you get two lockers, lots of power and a shed load of grip and the drive train is very very very strong.
Edited by PugwasHDJ80 on Monday 19th December 21:26
PugwasHDJ80 said:
If you are talking about an 80 series Landcruiser then it will walk ALL over a stock 110, and in similar nodded firm too.
A 100 series is closer to a range rover and not quite the same thing.
I had 8 range rovers, a stage 1 v8, a 90 v8 and a 110 td5
The cruiser left them in the dust, the main reason is that the drive train is an order of magnitude stronger. I ran 35 mud terrains on the 89
I have owned BOTH a Land Cruiser and a Defender in a jungle environment. Not some short term crappy competition, but a normal day-to-day long term day after day slog in jungle. Mud, hills, trees, river crossings, the lot. The Defender 110 'walks all over' the Toyota. A 100 series is closer to a range rover and not quite the same thing.
I had 8 range rovers, a stage 1 v8, a 90 v8 and a 110 td5
The cruiser left them in the dust, the main reason is that the drive train is an order of magnitude stronger. I ran 35 mud terrains on the 89
That was a single moment in time- my 80 did 80k miles including Iceland, Russia, Sahara, Pyrenees, Wales etc I think I did roughly 20k miles offroad. Other people do a lot more off road.
But lets try and take the emotion out of this and compare like for like .
Lets imagine 2 vehicles, an 80 4.2tdi and a 110td5, bth with a 2" lift and suitable rubber- the 110 will be a on 33" muds (as that's the realistic limit for a 110 on a 2" lift and stock CVs) and a 35" muds on an 80 (which is the realistic limit for gearing and probably CVs)
Aproach/Departure/Breakover
Approach- 80 series
Departure- 110- the 80 is really lard arse
Breakover - probably a draw- the 80 is 2" longer in wheelbase but has bigger tyres
Body size- 110 takes it, being narrower (a voluminous 5" narrower (although 2" of this with an 80 is flexble mud guards), and 2" shorter.
Turning circle- couldn't find the stats- anecdotally the steering angle on an 80 is better than a 110, but then it needs to offset the extra size!
Weight- lr110 1977kg, Landcruiser 2,159kg so 110 wins
ground pressure basis, the 80 wins (larger tyres)
Power- 80- 182bhp, 110- 136bhp - 80 wins
Torque 110 - 211 lb/ft 80 267 lb/ft- 80 wins
Power/Weight- 110= 136/1.977= 68.8 bhp /tonne , 80= 182/2.159= 85bhp/tonne.
Both can be modded, you can get the td5 to 200bhp, the 80 series go to 300bhp. I'm going to call this an 80 series win, as like for like th power is 30% better, but the characteristics of the engine are better.
Clearance under the axles- probably a draw as it does depend on tyre size more than anything else.
Suscepability to damage- 80 series- everything is above the chassis, but as stock, the important parts are already protected. 80 better for drivetrain, 110 better for body work
Reliability- 80 series- the engine, drive train, body work and quality of materials exceeds that of the 110- the CVs, for example are a magnitude size larger.
Seats- 110- 9 people, 80 series- 7- 110 wins
Traction- 110- open diffs, relatively weak driveline components. 80 Series- locking diffs all round. 80 series by a long way.
RTI score- 110 is 510 (according to google), 80 is 593- 80 series wins it
Interior- 80 series is larger and comfy, 110 is more utilitarian (although there's not much in it- both have carpets)- take your pick
Wading depth- probably a draw (as lets be honest every truck would have a snorkel and raised breathers), the one nicety that an 80 has that I haven't seen before is an airlock in the heater intakes. You can have water half way up the windscreen and water won't come in. I "think" that a standard 110 is 700mm and a standard 80 is 850mm but I could be wrong.
Character- 110 every time! despite this thread, if LR had built a 110 with the build quality and drive train from an 80, i'd buy the 110 every time.
Build quality- 80 series- no contest.
Repair costs- 110 wins it- the market in the UK for landrover parts is huge, BUT the stocks of EOM parts from milners for 80s is close to Paddocks and prices are very similar now- there is probably less than 10% in it. This "may" be offset by an improvement in relabiilty, but i'd still call this a wni for 110.
Bodywork options- 110- you pretty much ave to stick with the unibody of the 80- the 110 has much more options.
If you want something that will just go on and on and on and on, not get stuck, not break and be a nice place to live with then get an 80.
If you want something with Character that is good off road, more agile, more body work options, and better known in the UK then go for a 110.
Hope this is fair!
Off road an 80 will still go further than a 110.
But lets try and take the emotion out of this and compare like for like .
Lets imagine 2 vehicles, an 80 4.2tdi and a 110td5, bth with a 2" lift and suitable rubber- the 110 will be a on 33" muds (as that's the realistic limit for a 110 on a 2" lift and stock CVs) and a 35" muds on an 80 (which is the realistic limit for gearing and probably CVs)
Aproach/Departure/Breakover
Approach- 80 series
Departure- 110- the 80 is really lard arse
Breakover - probably a draw- the 80 is 2" longer in wheelbase but has bigger tyres
Body size- 110 takes it, being narrower (a voluminous 5" narrower (although 2" of this with an 80 is flexble mud guards), and 2" shorter.
Turning circle- couldn't find the stats- anecdotally the steering angle on an 80 is better than a 110, but then it needs to offset the extra size!
Weight- lr110 1977kg, Landcruiser 2,159kg so 110 wins
ground pressure basis, the 80 wins (larger tyres)
Power- 80- 182bhp, 110- 136bhp - 80 wins
Torque 110 - 211 lb/ft 80 267 lb/ft- 80 wins
Power/Weight- 110= 136/1.977= 68.8 bhp /tonne , 80= 182/2.159= 85bhp/tonne.
Both can be modded, you can get the td5 to 200bhp, the 80 series go to 300bhp. I'm going to call this an 80 series win, as like for like th power is 30% better, but the characteristics of the engine are better.
Clearance under the axles- probably a draw as it does depend on tyre size more than anything else.
Suscepability to damage- 80 series- everything is above the chassis, but as stock, the important parts are already protected. 80 better for drivetrain, 110 better for body work
Reliability- 80 series- the engine, drive train, body work and quality of materials exceeds that of the 110- the CVs, for example are a magnitude size larger.
Seats- 110- 9 people, 80 series- 7- 110 wins
Traction- 110- open diffs, relatively weak driveline components. 80 Series- locking diffs all round. 80 series by a long way.
RTI score- 110 is 510 (according to google), 80 is 593- 80 series wins it
Interior- 80 series is larger and comfy, 110 is more utilitarian (although there's not much in it- both have carpets)- take your pick
Wading depth- probably a draw (as lets be honest every truck would have a snorkel and raised breathers), the one nicety that an 80 has that I haven't seen before is an airlock in the heater intakes. You can have water half way up the windscreen and water won't come in. I "think" that a standard 110 is 700mm and a standard 80 is 850mm but I could be wrong.
Character- 110 every time! despite this thread, if LR had built a 110 with the build quality and drive train from an 80, i'd buy the 110 every time.
Build quality- 80 series- no contest.
Repair costs- 110 wins it- the market in the UK for landrover parts is huge, BUT the stocks of EOM parts from milners for 80s is close to Paddocks and prices are very similar now- there is probably less than 10% in it. This "may" be offset by an improvement in relabiilty, but i'd still call this a wni for 110.
Bodywork options- 110- you pretty much ave to stick with the unibody of the 80- the 110 has much more options.
If you want something that will just go on and on and on and on, not get stuck, not break and be a nice place to live with then get an 80.
If you want something with Character that is good off road, more agile, more body work options, and better known in the UK then go for a 110.
Hope this is fair!
Off road an 80 will still go further than a 110.
I had a 120 LC.
Pretty much unstoppable. Only thing that went wrong was a heat shield that lost a rivet and tinkled on the exhaust for ages until the Toyota man spotted it on a service.
Kept it serviced on the nail at main dealer. Costly but worth it. Always very nice, helpful people too.
Pretty much unstoppable. Only thing that went wrong was a heat shield that lost a rivet and tinkled on the exhaust for ages until the Toyota man spotted it on a service.
Kept it serviced on the nail at main dealer. Costly but worth it. Always very nice, helpful people too.
Hi all,
Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it. Especially the in depth one, Sir Pug. I think it'll come down to the right car at the right time and what the good lady indoors likes, too. If she had it her way it'd possibly be a Classic RR Soft Dash with a V, however that's be a whole different thread/can-o-worms!
Merry Xmas to you all and happy driving.
PHH.
Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it. Especially the in depth one, Sir Pug. I think it'll come down to the right car at the right time and what the good lady indoors likes, too. If she had it her way it'd possibly be a Classic RR Soft Dash with a V, however that's be a whole different thread/can-o-worms!
Merry Xmas to you all and happy driving.
PHH.
Ayahuasca said:
To be fair, my Toyota is a Land Cruiser Prado, not as hardcore as an 80.
Fell out of love with it when it let me down during a river crossing 'hiccup' resulting in a trashed transmission. $15,000 for a new transmission. Wife likes it for the school run though.
Ah Ok- yeah a prado is nowhere near as good as a 110- Prado's are somewhere between a Freelander and Discovery in reality. Reasonable off road, but better for the school run- there are some modded prados that go well, but they aren't in the same league. Fell out of love with it when it let me down during a river crossing 'hiccup' resulting in a trashed transmission. $15,000 for a new transmission. Wife likes it for the school run though.
PotHoleHater said:
Hi all,
Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it. Especially the in depth one, Sir Pug. I think it'll come down to the right car at the right time and what the good lady indoors likes, too. If she had it her way it'd possibly be a Classic RR Soft Dash with a V, however that's be a whole different thread/can-o-worms!
Merry Xmas to you all and happy driving.
PHH.
ooh soft dash rangie- i suspect if you could find a good one you should probably put it in a garage for 10 years- a very good investmentThanks for the replies, I really appreciate it. Especially the in depth one, Sir Pug. I think it'll come down to the right car at the right time and what the good lady indoors likes, too. If she had it her way it'd possibly be a Classic RR Soft Dash with a V, however that's be a whole different thread/can-o-worms!
Merry Xmas to you all and happy driving.
PHH.
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