Ok, so I have narrowed it down to these vehicles. What now?

[J4x4K]

Since the other thread became long and was straying off topic I thought I would start a new one, now that I have narrowed it down to 3 vehicles.

Interestingly they were all far way from my list when I started this. But thanks to posters like Truckosaurus, Gary C, TurboHatchback and jay140285 I took a second look at them.

So after a little more research I have narrowed it down to this 3, in this order:

Nissan Patrol Y61
Toyota Land Cruiser J80
Jeep Grand Cherokee WJ

The Land Cruiser Prado is just not my cup of tea.

The Hummer H2 I'm skeptical it is just a poser, a Chevy made to look tougher. Maybe is that Hummer stigma.

The Wrangler was always too small. I need 4-doors and the Unlimited is still rough and not as comfortable as a family car. Also blows my budget, which is 5,000.

My goals are the following, in order of importance:

1-Daily driver for the family. I want a tough car, built like a tank but still have some comfort. Don't need anything fancy like electrical seats or computer controlled ac. But simple AC, central lock, airbags and other safety things are a must.

2-Reliable, low maintenance. Don't want something that drinks too much gas, breaks down and is expensive or hard to repair.

3-Real off road capabilities for some weekend off roading. Nothing too hardcore. Mainly going camping with the wife and the baby and doing some off-roading. But would still like a real off road that could go anywhere, if or when I have to.


My personal opinion about the 3 I have chosen.

Patrol Y61: I originally only considered the Y60. It looks tougher. But TurboHatchback convinced me the Y61 is every bit as tough but a better car and also more modern. The Y61 is the last Patrol I would consider. From here on they seem to have gotten soft. Maybe this is why Nissan still sells them brand new to the United Nations and several armed forces around the world along with the Y60. They are manufactured alongside the current Patrol, specially for this. Makes you wonder why the UN and military doesn't use the current Patrol right? So the Y61 seem to check all my boxes, unless I missed something? And since I'm considering a Nissan, should I consider the Pathfinder? I always liked the WD21 series. But they seem too old now.

Land cruiser J80: The J80 is also the last Land Cruiser I would consider. From here on they seem to have gotten soft and according to my research there are a lot of people who share that opinion online. They became more Luxury trucks. But between Patrol and Land Cruiser it seems to be a toss up. Toyota fans will say this is better while Nissan fans will say Patrol all the way. i think both would probably fit my needs. But as I was never a Toyota fan and always preferred Nissan over Toyota, I'm putting the Patrol ahead. Just personal preference and I also like how the Y61 looks more than the J80. If it is a toss up then i might as well go with the one I like the looks better. Also between the Y61 and J80 the Y61 is the more modern car and has more niceties it seems. Because it's basically a generation newer.

Grand Cherokee: I know it's a Jeep (although it was actually it was born as a Chrysler). I always considered the real Jeeps to be the Wrangler and Cherokee and always saw the Grand Cherokee as a bit of a Chelsea Tractor or poser. But apparently they are quite capable. But as they seem not to be as reliable or tough as the Patrol and Land Cruiser and seem to need much more petro and have more plastic stuff around the body to break, I'm putting it in last. For the record I used to think of the Land Cruiser and Patrol as a bit of a Chelsea Tractor poser SUV too, probably based on the current models. But that was before I found out the J80 and Y61 are actually serious and can hang out with Defenders. If they use them in the UN in missions in Africa etc and in military forces around the world they can't be too bad.

I started this looking at the Niva 4-doors, Defender, Cherokee and Hummer H1. I basically saw any other SUV which is just about being pretty with plastic body work wrapped around and sports tires that belong more on a BMW M3 and not on an Off Road as posers. But it seems the LC and Patrol are better all around cars than the Niva, Defender, Cherokee and H1 and are still as good off roads and also built like tanks.

Any opinions are welcome for this second round of my off-road selection. If you didn't read the original thread it is here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Thanks for participating.

Edited by J4x4K on Wednesday 13th May 13:20

[pcn1]

I'm very happy with my Grand WJ CRD after almost 4 years of ownership.
I think the Grand can trace its heritage back to the "Cherokee Chief" of years gone by, those American luxury 4x4's being the inspiration for the Range Rover model ???
Its not a Chelsea Tractor for sure, it has no appeal to most buyers who think a BMW/Audi/Range Rover are a status.

Get a good one and there very good value for money.

[J4x4K]

pcn1 said:

I'm very happy with my Grand WJ CRD after almost 4 years of ownership.
I think the Grand can trace its heritage back to the "Cherokee Chief" of years gone by, those American luxury 4x4's being the inspiration for the Range Rover model ???
Its not a Chelsea Tractor for sure, it has no appeal to most buyers who think a BMW/Audi/Range Rover are a status.

Get a good one and there very good value for money.

But they need a lot of fuel right? And I heard repairs are expensive in Europe. I'm sure in the U.S. they are cheap to maintain.

Anything by Audi, BMW and Mercedes (besides the G-wagen) is a Chelsea Tractor in my opinion. That BMW with a sports roof that doesn't know if it wants to be a Mustang or a truck makes me laugh every time. Land Rover also has many new models that seem to be made for nothing else but to pose.

[jay140285]

Having had Jeep XJ off roader and WJ lifted in the past and currently have a ZJ highly prepped and WK lifted I can say they are no more expensive than anything else to maintain.

I have owned Jap 4x4, Range Rovers and since going Jeep there is no going back. Agreed everyone will rate their preference but Jeeps are mine.

Fuel wise, Petrol Jeeps wont be cheap to run but no big engine petrol will be, the 4.0litre runs really well on LPG. The WJ CRD is a good engine just keep an eye on injectors for leaking. You can now get into the new WK as per my link in your other Thread, these are very nice Jeeps and we average mid 25mpg combined with bigger tyres and 3inch lift.

[pcn1]

J4x4K said:

But they need a lot of fuel right? And I heard repairs are expensive in Europe. I'm sure in the U.S. they are cheap to maintain.

Anything by Audi, BMW and Mercedes (besides the G-wagen) is a Chelsea Tractor in my opinion. That BMW with a sports roof that doesn't know if it wants to be a Mustang or a truck makes me laugh every time. Land Rover also has many new models that seem to be made for nothing else but to pose.

I look after my own jeep, but if your not too handy with the spanners get a good local spanner man to do your work for you. Keep away from Jeep dealers ! Service parts are either Euro-car parts or e-bay or jeep specialist suppliers here in the UK.
My CRD is averaging 26mpg on a urban cycle and I've seen 37mpg steady motorway cruising if you can believe the onboard computer.
Just remember the youngest WJ's are 10 years old now, so look for one with a bloody good service history. Diff oil changes on the correct mileage are important.
In almost 4 years the only fault that caused problems was 5 little O rings on the low pressure diesel line that needed replacing for £12.
You will find help from WJ owners here with any known problems. I also use http://jeepgarage.org/ as a resource.
These are real Jeeps with real off road capabilities.

[J4x4K]

jay140285 said:

Having had Jeep XJ off roader and WJ lifted in the past and currently have a ZJ highly prepped and WK lifted I can say they are no more expensive than anything else to maintain.

I have owned Jap 4x4, Range Rovers and since going Jeep there is no going back. Agreed everyone will rate their preference but Jeeps are mine.

Fuel wise, Petrol Jeeps wont be cheap to run but no big engine petrol will be, the 4.0litre runs really well on LPG. The WJ CRD is a good engine just keep an eye on injectors for leaking. You can now get into the new WK as per my link in your other Thread, these are very nice Jeeps and we average mid 25mpg combined with bigger tyres and 3inch lift.

When I came here I was pretty decided on a XJ. My goal was something like this:



But the guys here convinced me to go with a more modern design because it is safer. Since you hear nothing but bad stuff about the newer Cherokees after the XJ I decided to look outside of Jeep.

I know there is some prejudice against Japanese cars and specially trucks and specially in Europe (in Australia they are kings though.)

But it's hard to argue with the fact the UN and many other missions and armed forces use the Land Cruiser and Patrol. Besides Land Rovers,not many other off roads can claim that. As far as I know not even the US armed forces uses a Grand Cherokee. Not that this is the be all end all benchmark. But it definitely must mean something. So brand or nationality prejudice apart the Y61 and J80 are great vehicles. By the way, not saying you have prejudice against the Japanese trucks. But you know there are those who have.

But I'm a Jeep fan for sure. Specially of the Wrangle and XJ. The Grand Cherokee hasn't grown on me yet. I have this heavy, sluggish and more luxury than function image of it in my head. But I'm getting the feeling it may not be the case at all. But I would probably stick with the WJ. I want to avoid the very newer cars which are computer on wheels and have more stuff to break down or go wrong. Although I read one article which said the WJ is the weakest Grand Cherokee ever. But maybe it was just an isolated opinion as I didn't see anybody else saying that.

Regardless of which I end up going with, I will get a diesel, unless the gasoline version has something much better about it the diesel doesn't.

[TurboHatchback]

Some observations from me:

• The Jeep will be the cheapest for a given age and mileage, the Patrol in the middle and the LandCruiser the most expensive.
• The Jeep is notably smaller than the Patrol or the Cruiser (which are both huge)
• If you're concerned about fuel economy you will be looking at the diesels. All the diesels in these vehicles are good units but they are different in character, the 4.2td I6 in the Landcruiser is an old-school diesel, it will last indefinitely, makes good power and is fairly smooth but is loud. The 3.0Di in the Patrol is a more modern 4-pot unit but perfectly decent. The Jeep engines are 5-pots, the 3.1 is an older style unit, the 2.7 is a more modern common rail unit with all the ups and downs that entails.
• Transmissions: The Jeep only comes in automatic, the Cruiser and Patrol come in both manual and auto. The manuals give notably better economy, the autos are more relaxing to drive.
• 4x4 systems: All are twin live axle designs. The Cruiser has permanent 4x4 with triple electric locking differentials, pretty much the ultimate off road drivetrain. The Patrol is part time 4x4 with a rear diff lock as standard. I can't remember if the Jeep is permanent or part time 4x4 but the center certainly locks and the axles contain Vari-Lok Gerotor style limited slip diffs which transfer power mechanically after one wheel starts slipping.

I think they're all good vehicles which have pros and cons. I wouldn't try and tell you whether auto or manual or common rail vs old school diesel was better, there are many arguments for both. Generally the Cruiser and Patrol are heavier duty vehicles, their drivetrains are stronger and they are generally bigger and stronger. The prices are higher as a consequence due to their demand for work and towing. The Jeep is a bit smaller and lighter duty.

As for use on the road, the Cruiser is most like driving a truck, the Patrol is more refined and the Jeep is closest to a normal car. If you compare a manual Cruiser, manual patrol and auto 2.7CRD Jeep I think the fuel consumption is very similar between all of them. The auto Cruiser and Patrol will drink more. I favour the Cruiser as the ultimate off-road or expedition truck (with the patrol a close second) but the Jeep is probably a better day to day family car.

Hope some of that helps.

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

Generally the Cruiser and Patrol are heavier duty vehicles, their drivetrains are stronger and they are generally bigger and stronger. The prices are higher as a consequence due to their demand for work and towing. The Jeep is a bit smaller and lighter duty.

This sums up exactly my impressions too. I see the Grand Cherokee as lighter duty and not as strong.

I know it's an older design and much lighter as well, but how do you think the XJ fairs against the Patrol and Land Cruiser?

[TurboHatchback]

J4x4K said:

TurboHatchback said:

Generally the Cruiser and Patrol are heavier duty vehicles, their drivetrains are stronger and they are generally bigger and stronger. The prices are higher as a consequence due to their demand for work and towing. The Jeep is a bit smaller and lighter duty.

This sums up exactly my impressions too. I see the Grand Cherokee as lighter duty and not as strong.

I know it's an older design and much lighter as well, but how do you think the XJ fairs against the Patrol and Land Cruiser?

The XJ seems to have a good reputation for reliability (though not for crash performance) and off road capability. It is much smaller than a Cruiser or Patrol though, nearly a ton lighter and dimensionally more like a jacked up Golf estate car than a full size 4x4. There are two main things that put me off them, firstly the engines (the 4.0 petrol is reliable and powerful but horrendously thirsty and the VM 2.5td isn't great) and secondly old Jeeps tend to be a little 'loose' to drive i.e. they don't track very straight (requiring quite a bit of steering to go in a straight line) and they don't stop or turn terribly well, this gets much worse when they're modified too. I've not driven an XJ but I have driven a ZJ and I'm led to believe they're similar in that regard.

I don't really see the XJ as being in the same class as the Cruiser or Patrol, it is a much smaller and lighter vehicle. That's not always a bad thing, it depends on your requirements. The flip side is XJs can be picked up from about £500 whereas a decent Cruiser or Patrol will cost a lot more than that.

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

The XJ seems to have a good reputation for reliability (though not for crash performance) and off road capability. It is much smaller than a Cruiser or Patrol though, nearly a ton lighter and dimensionally more like a jacked up Golf estate car than a full size 4x4. There are two main things that put me off them, firstly the engines (the 4.0 petrol is reliable and powerful but horrendously thirsty and the VM 2.5td isn't great) and secondly old Jeeps tend to be a little 'loose' to drive i.e. they don't track very straight (requiring quite a bit of steering to go in a straight line) and they don't stop or turn terribly well, this gets much worse when they're modified too. I've not driven an XJ but I have driven a ZJ and I'm led to believe they're similar in that regard.

I don't really see the XJ as being in the same class as the Cruiser or Patrol, it is a much smaller and lighter vehicle. That's not always a bad thing, it depends on your requirements. The flip side is XJs can be picked up from about £500 whereas a decent Cruiser or Patrol will cost a lot more than that.

Thanks. Yeah, I have pretty much given up on a XJ. I just wanted to know your opinion.

The more I think the more I'm setting on a Y61. But then I think, if I'm going that big there are a lot of other options, like Americans like Suburban, Explorer or even Dodge. But then again like the Grand Cherokee they are probably not as good as the Patrol. What do you think?

And do you see anything else besides the Patrol and LC?

[TurboHatchback]

J4x4K said:

Thanks. Yeah, I have pretty much given up on a XJ. I just wanted to know your opinion.

The more I think the more I'm setting on a Y61. But then I think, if I'm going that big there are a lot of other options, like Americans like Suburban, Explorer or even Dodge. But then again like the Grand Cherokee they are probably not as good as the Patrol. What do you think?

And do you see anything else besides the Patrol and LC?

Some of the American stuff looks great but I wouldn't have one as a daily as they are possibly just too huge and being imports parts availability could be a pain and insurance might be problematic.

As for other stuff, I was recently picking a 4x4 for my Iceland trip this summer and I similarly boiled it down a LC80, Y61 Patrol or WK Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD which is quite a step on from the WJ (I've owned a commander which is the same platform). If you can afford a decent WJ then that could be a good contender, they are very capable and comfortable but considerably better on the road than the others (they're auto only again though).

I'd suggest trying them all and seeing what you think as it's quite a subjective decision, they're all good vehicles. Never buy the first thing that you see!

[Steve_F]

I've had my WJ off road a couple of times. Mine is a 4.0 with LPG and there was a 4.7 there too.

I got stuck a few times first time out and once the second (very bad spotting by my old man, the ruts were about a foot deep!). They are fairly low as standard, every time I was stuck it had grounded out. The 4.7 with a 2" body lift did a lot better. They get laughed at when you turn up at an off road day but they do ok. If that's all you're doing I wouldn't go for one but if it's used as a daily with occasional off road use they're great. 4.0 is giving around 18mpg with LPG half the price of fuel. That's the one to go for to me.

If it hadn't been for the low ground clearance I'd have been following everything else in the more normal category, even with a 2" lift it would do ok. Mine will be getting that as soon as I have money to spend on it!

Never done any off roading before I got it but I constantly worry about breaking it. The guys who tow prep'd vehicles there can tow it home and fix as and when (if the beefed up stuff breaks) or turn up in Jimnys that can be fixed for buttons, I think had more fun. It was always at the back of my mine how much replacing suspension components to an axle would cost me plus arranging to tow something that size home.

[Howitzer]

I drove the Patrol and Land Cruiser quite a bit in Dubai and Africa. For me I liked the looks of the Patrol but in all other areas the Land Cruiser was king. The ones which used to follow the pipeline were abused daily by the local drivers and given basic maintenance and just kept on going. Very tough mechanically and despite feeling a bit cheap inside were very well put together and were holding up well.

The Cherokee i'm no big fan of, the handling was a surprise and felt like a design 20 years earlier. No doubt good value for money but wouldn't even be in the running.

I'm sure the Jeep also did famously bad in the Elk test but cannot remember which model it was.

Due to the use it would get in the UK, id pick a Patrol mainly as I prefer the looks and they are still incredibly strong in general.

Given my own money, id not get any of the three mind you but that's not a help to your question

Dave!

[Steve_F]

Howitzer said:

I'm sure the Jeep also did famously bad in the Elk test but cannot remember which model it was.

Dave!

It was the grand iirc probably the WJ but we don't have elk in the uk so it doesn't really matter

Meant to add in my comment, although it does ok and better than people expect off road if you're using it where you can't get recovered and have to get through I'd agree you should pay the extra and go for one of the other two.

Also parts aren't as cheap as I was hoping, importing looks like a good option if anything other than basic stuff.

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

Some of the American stuff looks great but I wouldn't have one as a daily as they are possibly just too huge and being imports parts availability could be a pain and insurance might be problematic.

Yeah, I'm steering clear of them. A Dodge RAM is ridiculously huge and a truck. Basically useless as a real off road. I drove a Durango in the U.S. and it felt weak. The big Chevy like Suburban or Tahoe are also huge and heavy gas guzzlers. Of course the most ridiculous of them is the Expedition, if you don't count that Ford which is basically a lorry cab posing as a pick up truck. So none of those are real off roaders. Besides Wrangler and Cherokee, American just doesn't fit. The Explorer and other smaller ones are no competition for a Land Cruiser or Patrol.

TurboHatchback said:

As for other stuff, I was recently picking a 4x4 for my Iceland trip this summer and I similarly boiled it down a LC80, Y61 Patrol or WK Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD which is quite a step on from the WJ (I've owned a commander which is the same platform). If you can afford a decent WJ then that could be a good contender, they are very capable and comfortable but considerably better on the road than the others (they're auto only again though).

I have now test driven one. I pretty much gave up on it. Don't like how it drives. Still has that Jeep thing that the old Cherokees had and after talking to many people, including the dealer, it will never be as reliable or easy to keep as a Patrol or Land Cruiser. Also looks a bit funny. Still has too much of a luxury SUV look. And what really killed it was this:

TurboHatchback said:

• Transmissions: The Jeep only comes in automatic, the Cruiser and Patrol come in both manual and auto. The manuals give notably better economy, the autos are more relaxing to drive.

I had initially overlooked this. But I will never buy an automatic car. Specially not an off roader. You kidding? Automatic cars are toys. I want the real thing.

TurboHatchback said:

I'd suggest trying them all and seeing what you think as it's quite a subjective decision, they're all good vehicles. Never buy the first thing that you see!

I tried doing this this weekend. Couldn't find a Y61 or J80 though. But drove two Grand Cherokees (WJ and WK), a Defender and a Discovery. The Grand Cherokees was like I said. Had too much of the big loose boat feeling U.S. cars have and if they are only automatic, forget it.

The Defender was actually worst than I thought. I always liked the look of the Defender and always said it would be the only Land Rover I would ever consider buying because all other models, meaning the latest generations, are too much of a Chelsea Tractor for me. Even though I know many of them are great off roaders. Just because I think most people who buy them never even get them dirty and only want to drive a LR. And although I always heard the Defender drove like a tractor, boy I had no idea. The thing is a caveman car! It feels worse than an old Toyota J40. I know it's a great off roader but in the city I would never want that. As a daily family driver it's unsuitable. But I know it's not made for that. I think a Defender is for people who only use it for off roading, puts it on a trailer and pulls it till the pay and play or whatever. To drive it long distances on the road is a neck breaker. Reason why a 110 makes no sense. For off-roading a 90 is much better. The 110 4-doors only if it was any good in the city. But no thanks!

The Discovery drives good on the road. But like I said, to me is a Chelsea Truck. Only drove it because the dealer insisted after I complained how agricultural the Defender was. Also it blows my budget as it was a shiny newer one. All white no else. Can we say posh-wagon? And I don't like how it looks. I don't like how any of the Land Rovers or Range Rovers look beside the Defender. Ok, the Evoke looks nice. But if I want a sports car I buy a sports car. And it is too small. Not much point, reason I always saw it as a poser. If I need a small, with space for nothing but capable off roader I buy a Niva.

But after much research it seems the Land Rovers are not as reliable as the Patrols and Land Cruisers and also did lots of research and found many, many stories of Patrols and Land Cruisers rescuing Land Rovers.

[J4x4K]

Howitzer said:

I drove the Patrol and Land Cruiser quite a bit in Dubai and Africa. For me I liked the looks of the Patrol but in all other areas the Land Cruiser was king.

This is the thing. You find people saying the Patrol is king and you find people saying the Land Cruiser is king. All opinions. I gathered that both are on pair and it's a toss. I've been checking a lot of Australian forums where the Patrol and Land Cruiser are kings and even Land Rover don't have as good of a reputation and you have equally enthusiastic fans of both Patrol and Land Cruiser and claiming each is the best. So I call it a toss up between the two. More interesting is the Australian's high opinion about both compared to Land Rovers, Jeeps and anything out there. It seems nobody knows the Patrols and Land Cruisers as they Australians. Maybe because they don't have the juvenile prejudice against Japanese trucks we have here, which now since Land Rover, Jaguar and other British car companies are all owned by Indian and Asian companies make even less sense.

Howitzer said:

Given my own money, id not get any of the three mind you but that's not a help to your question

Why? Because it's Japanese? There seems to be way more worse off roaders than better ones than the Patrol and LC. Actually by what I gathered there is none really better, only as good. But worse ones there are like a million...

[J4x4K]

By the way, another option that keeps popping up and is starting to look interesting because of how often it's brought up is the Isuzu Trooper and it's variants (Monterey etc). But then again it seems to be smaller like a Hilux. Does it have anything on the Patrol or Land Cruiser? It seems to be a bit cheaper too.

[Howitzer]

No issue with them being Japanese, I just think the game has moved on.

My money already went on an ML500, it just suited what we wanted better than the others.

Dave!

[TurboHatchback]

I'm also not a fan of Landrover products, modified Defenders have a certain appeal as pure off-roaders but the rest of the range not so much. It sounds to me like you need to find a manual 80 series Cruiser and a Patrol to test drive.

Whilst it's true they have no equal when it comes to dependability and in the most inhospitable places on earth they drive nothing else do you really need that? I seem to recall that your original requirements were for a family car also used for some occasional light off-roading. A full size Landcruiser or Patrol is spectacular overkill for that role, there are many smaller cheaper vehicles that would do the trick, cost less to run and be less cumbersome for day to day duties. I have a HDJ80 manual but I bought it for a trip to Iceland this summer where its capabilities will be required (it will probably be sold afterward), I wouldn't choose it as my only car for driving to the shops and back.

[Efbe]

J4x4K said:

Thanks. Yeah, I have pretty much given up on a XJ. I just wanted to know your opinion.

am suprised by the vague steering comments on the XJ. It's probably the most car like proper 4x4 I have driven.
This may be to do with what tyres/lift you have on it, but I found the XJ excellent on the road.

for other options, never driven one offroad but how about a vitara or grand vitara. comes with a low box, cheap to buy, comparitively good on fuel.