Talk to me about Jeep Wranglers...
Discussion
With Wranglers been less plentiful round my way, I've not got much choice in getting out to look over one locally. Before people tell me to get a Defender instead, I've had a look over one, but found the cabin that little bit too cramped for my liking(, and looks wise, I'd love a 110 with the rear overhang of a 90, which they don't do). Is the Wrangler the same or does it afford the driver a little more lateral and vertical room?
All the post 2009 models seem to be automatic only too, yet I see reference to facts and figures for a manual. Was the manual available and people just didn't buy them, or was it not actually offered?
Anyone with experience of one day to day, the 2.8 diesel model? Anything in particular to look out for?
All the post 2009 models seem to be automatic only too, yet I see reference to facts and figures for a manual. Was the manual available and people just didn't buy them, or was it not actually offered?
Anyone with experience of one day to day, the 2.8 diesel model? Anything in particular to look out for?
They're absolute bags of fun and I can't stop looking at the bloody things since moving over the pond.
I'm a huge LR fan, so it's difficult to admit that I actually prefer the Jeep. Both are wonderful at what they're for however.
I did find the Jeep a bit more accommodating for larger folks (6'3 and a shade under 19st here so it's something I'm aware of), but I never had too big a problem with defenders - you get used to the elbow pain and leg cramps after a while or cave in and buy a seat rail kit
the jeep still isn't exactly palatial though so I'd try one first. they're also very basic, but for fun factor they're great.
If size is a consideration I'd look at older Cherokees too, same ethos, bigger frock.
Diesels I've no idea about.
I'm a huge LR fan, so it's difficult to admit that I actually prefer the Jeep. Both are wonderful at what they're for however.
I did find the Jeep a bit more accommodating for larger folks (6'3 and a shade under 19st here so it's something I'm aware of), but I never had too big a problem with defenders - you get used to the elbow pain and leg cramps after a while or cave in and buy a seat rail kit
the jeep still isn't exactly palatial though so I'd try one first. they're also very basic, but for fun factor they're great.If size is a consideration I'd look at older Cherokees too, same ethos, bigger frock.
Diesels I've no idea about.
There are some great wrangler forums around, it's worth trying those.
As you mention a 110 I'm guessing your looking at the 4 door new wrangler.
They are good cars - there was a hefty interior facelift at some point, and most people like the new version.
Iirc there are several engine and gearbox choices.
The diesel is supposed to be competent, the petrol engine fun.
I have a 1997 two door TJ.
It's fantastic fun.
As you mention a 110 I'm guessing your looking at the 4 door new wrangler.
They are good cars - there was a hefty interior facelift at some point, and most people like the new version.
Iirc there are several engine and gearbox choices.
The diesel is supposed to be competent, the petrol engine fun.
I have a 1997 two door TJ.
It's fantastic fun.
I looked at a few Wranglers but they are very small inside with a tiny boot, no back seats to speak of and no good for towing anything and no good for roof racks. They are small cars that seem big to drive with very wide arches. The 4 cylinder model is underpowered and the 6 cylinder model is thirsty. No diesels of course. They are however good for off roading and the Rubicon model comes with diff lockers as standard.
I bought a Defender 110 instead, bags of space, does anything a Wrangler can, whilst carrying seven people, towing and with a roof rack, and better approach / departure angles, and is narrow so can be threaded through traffic, with a diesel engine. Wish it had the Rubicon's diff lockers though!
I bought a Defender 110 instead, bags of space, does anything a Wrangler can, whilst carrying seven people, towing and with a roof rack, and better approach / departure angles, and is narrow so can be threaded through traffic, with a diesel engine. Wish it had the Rubicon's diff lockers though!
Snowboy said:
There are some great wrangler forums around, it's worth trying those.
As you mention a 110 I'm guessing your looking at the 4 door new wrangler.
They are good cars - there was a hefty interior facelift at some point, and most people like the new version.
Iirc there are several engine and gearbox choices.
The diesel is supposed to be competent, the petrol engine fun.
I have a 1997 two door TJ.
It's fantastic fun.
2011 was the big interior update, massive difference from previous versions.As you mention a 110 I'm guessing your looking at the 4 door new wrangler.
They are good cars - there was a hefty interior facelift at some point, and most people like the new version.
Iirc there are several engine and gearbox choices.
The diesel is supposed to be competent, the petrol engine fun.
I have a 1997 two door TJ.
It's fantastic fun.
These things knock the Defender for six.
Ayahuasca said:
I looked at a few Wranglers but they are very small inside with a tiny boot, no back seats to speak of and no good for towing anything and no good for roof racks. They are small cars that seem big to drive with very wide arches. The 4 cylinder model is underpowered and the 6 cylinder model is thirsty. No diesels of course. They are however good for off roading and the Rubicon model comes with diff lockers as standard.
This is partly true when discussing TJs and earlier.They can tow, you can get full frame roofracks - but they are small and thirsty.
Better compared to a 90 than a 110.
The new generation are quite different animals though.
Thanks all, interesting opinions. Ayahuasca, we have the luxury(?!) of a diesel engine over here in the UK (checked your profile which indicates you're not here), so a decent amount of torque and reasonable economy. I'll keep my eye out and see if something crops up locally for me to have a proper nose over, but would ideally like to try out a manual over an automatic. I recognise the benefits of an auto for control over extremely tricky terrain, but my intention wouldn't be to hit such boulder outcrops, a bit more milder offroading for me, with the hope of it also being a practical daily driver. I just fancy something a little different from the standard design cars that litter the road these days, and got interested in the off roader side of things after seeing many Defenders around our way.
It's all an idea at the moment, maybe a bit midlife crisis, but just want to experience something a little different, and not a vehicle that could be a number of others. I need a car with character.
All good food for thought, thanks. I'll take a look at what Wrangler forums are available and see what people's experiences are.
It's all an idea at the moment, maybe a bit midlife crisis, but just want to experience something a little different, and not a vehicle that could be a number of others. I need a car with character.
All good food for thought, thanks. I'll take a look at what Wrangler forums are available and see what people's experiences are.
I'll start by saying I'm a huge Land Rover fan. So I hold no bias.
But on the same I'm very much a Jeep fan too. They are both great brands and vehicles.
With the Wrangler, what sort of budget are you talking?
There are 3 main types of Wrangler available.
1. The YJ's. These are early ones with square headlights and leaf suspension. These are far superior on/off road to a leaf sprung Land Rover and apart from ride quality offer up a good mix of Defender like ability.
UK models are all SWB 2.5 or 4.0 petrol. Auto and manual. To really work off road, they do need a lift kit.
2. The TJ, these look like YJ's but have round headlights and coil springs. These are every bit as good a Land Rover Defender on or off road, in fact better in many ways. Although a lift kit is still a good idea.
Same engine choices, but everything just a bit newer.
BTW - anyone who claims the 2.5 petrol is underpower and drives a diesel Defender is talking utter tosh, either that or slightly deluding themselves!!
The 2.5 might not be the most grunty engine, but it's faster and more powerful than a Defender Tdi and about on par with a Td5.
The 4.0 is an all time classic engine and is hugely respected. MPG and power are also better than a Rover V8. In fact if you aren't doing a big mileage a good 4.0 will likely cost almost nothing more in fuel compared to a diesel Land Rover.
Both of the above are aimed at recreation, and while they might not seat 4 people like a Jaguar XJ does, they both seat 4 people way better than a Defender 90 does. But they are no good for towing. Jeep clearly aimed these as a recreational vehicle, not a utility one. And it clearly shows when you sit in one or drive one.
3. The JK.
This was a complete new, i.e. clean sheet design for 2005. And is the sort of thing Land Rover should have done a decade or so ago for the Defender.
The JK is bigger in every dimension, although the SWB model is still very much Defender 90 sized. Only now it has a modern hydroformed chassis, modern body and meets all world type approval standards for construction and safety.
The UK got the 2.8CRD engine, although US models use a 3.8 V6 (some very rare UK Rubicons got the V6).
The 2.8CRD is perfectly fine diesel motor. Not as characterful as a Td5, but way more refined than a Tdi and easily on par or better even the latest 2.4 & 2.2 Puma Defender engines.
In performance terms the 2.8CRD pisses all over a tuned Tdi or even a Td5 with ease. Gearboxes are 6 speed manual or 4 speed auto. Although the latest models have been revised.
Now remember I'm a huge Land Rover fan, I currently own 2 and half Land Rovers and have owned many others in the past. But I have driven a Jeep Wrangler JK both on and off road and in either case it completely pisses all over a stock Defender in ability.
Remember with the JK Jeep also introduced the lwb Unlimited model to the UK market. This has a 116 inch wheelbase vs 110 inch for a Defender 110.
The Unlimited easily matches or exceeds a 110 for interior space.
I also believe early Unlimited JK's came with 3500kg tow rating just like a 110 has, although I think Jeep have lowered this for some reason on the latest variants.
The only real downer with the UK spec JK's is Jeep UK and there total lack of interest in the Wrangler model. The UK market also got completely stiffed with model variations.
Early JKs:
SWB - Sport has plastic/black coloured wheel arches and hard top. Manual only and low spec, no air con etc etc
SWB - Sahara has body colour arches and hard top. Auto only, higher spec with air con.
LWB Unlimited was identical, but you could also get a Sport automatic.
The upshot is, you can't have air con and a manual. And that there are less manuals.
Such as shame as in the US there was a huge variety of options and specs. And even mainland Europe got two or three times the model selection as the UK did.
But on the same I'm very much a Jeep fan too. They are both great brands and vehicles.
With the Wrangler, what sort of budget are you talking?
There are 3 main types of Wrangler available.
1. The YJ's. These are early ones with square headlights and leaf suspension. These are far superior on/off road to a leaf sprung Land Rover and apart from ride quality offer up a good mix of Defender like ability.
UK models are all SWB 2.5 or 4.0 petrol. Auto and manual. To really work off road, they do need a lift kit.
2. The TJ, these look like YJ's but have round headlights and coil springs. These are every bit as good a Land Rover Defender on or off road, in fact better in many ways. Although a lift kit is still a good idea.
Same engine choices, but everything just a bit newer.
BTW - anyone who claims the 2.5 petrol is underpower and drives a diesel Defender is talking utter tosh, either that or slightly deluding themselves!!
The 2.5 might not be the most grunty engine, but it's faster and more powerful than a Defender Tdi and about on par with a Td5.
The 4.0 is an all time classic engine and is hugely respected. MPG and power are also better than a Rover V8. In fact if you aren't doing a big mileage a good 4.0 will likely cost almost nothing more in fuel compared to a diesel Land Rover.
Both of the above are aimed at recreation, and while they might not seat 4 people like a Jaguar XJ does, they both seat 4 people way better than a Defender 90 does. But they are no good for towing. Jeep clearly aimed these as a recreational vehicle, not a utility one. And it clearly shows when you sit in one or drive one.
3. The JK.
This was a complete new, i.e. clean sheet design for 2005. And is the sort of thing Land Rover should have done a decade or so ago for the Defender.
The JK is bigger in every dimension, although the SWB model is still very much Defender 90 sized. Only now it has a modern hydroformed chassis, modern body and meets all world type approval standards for construction and safety.
The UK got the 2.8CRD engine, although US models use a 3.8 V6 (some very rare UK Rubicons got the V6).
The 2.8CRD is perfectly fine diesel motor. Not as characterful as a Td5, but way more refined than a Tdi and easily on par or better even the latest 2.4 & 2.2 Puma Defender engines.
In performance terms the 2.8CRD pisses all over a tuned Tdi or even a Td5 with ease. Gearboxes are 6 speed manual or 4 speed auto. Although the latest models have been revised.
Now remember I'm a huge Land Rover fan, I currently own 2 and half Land Rovers and have owned many others in the past. But I have driven a Jeep Wrangler JK both on and off road and in either case it completely pisses all over a stock Defender in ability.
Remember with the JK Jeep also introduced the lwb Unlimited model to the UK market. This has a 116 inch wheelbase vs 110 inch for a Defender 110.
The Unlimited easily matches or exceeds a 110 for interior space.
I also believe early Unlimited JK's came with 3500kg tow rating just like a 110 has, although I think Jeep have lowered this for some reason on the latest variants.
The only real downer with the UK spec JK's is Jeep UK and there total lack of interest in the Wrangler model. The UK market also got completely stiffed with model variations.
Early JKs:
SWB - Sport has plastic/black coloured wheel arches and hard top. Manual only and low spec, no air con etc etc
SWB - Sahara has body colour arches and hard top. Auto only, higher spec with air con.
LWB Unlimited was identical, but you could also get a Sport automatic.
The upshot is, you can't have air con and a manual. And that there are less manuals.
Such as shame as in the US there was a huge variety of options and specs. And even mainland Europe got two or three times the model selection as the UK did.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 16th October 15:06
Snowboy said:
Ayahuasca said:
I looked at a few Wranglers but they are very small inside with a tiny boot, no back seats to speak of and no good for towing anything and no good for roof racks. They are small cars that seem big to drive with very wide arches. The 4 cylinder model is underpowered and the 6 cylinder model is thirsty. No diesels of course. They are however good for off roading and the Rubicon model comes with diff lockers as standard.
This is partly true when discussing TJs and earlier.They can tow, you can get full frame roofracks - but they are small and thirsty.
Better compared to a 90 than a 110.
The new generation are quite different animals though.
The JK Unlimited easily matches a 110, although maybe not for outright number of seats. But a 5 seat 110 vs a 5 seat JK Unlimited is a fair comparison.
| Wrangler JK Unlimited | Defender 110 | |
|---|---|---|
| Wheelbase | 116 | 110 |
| Length | 187 | 181 |
| Width | 73.9 | 70.5 |
Not really a lot in it exterior size wise. The Wrangler has more power and will return similar performance to a Discover 3 TDV6 while a Puma or TD5 Defender won't.
And if you are talking older Jeeps, they did offer a longer wheelbase model. Also known as Unlimited, just not sold in the UK.
Which was sort of a mid way between a traditional SWB and LWB model.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 16th October 17:06
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 16th October 17:07
Hanslow said:
but would ideally like to try out a manual over an automatic.
It's the same story as with most manual vs auto comparisons.The manual is faster, more sporty and more fun. While offering better mpg and lower cruising rpm.
The 4 speed auto is perfectly fine and is certainly no slouch. And in some off road situations would prove a better option.
Given the choice I'd much rather the manual. But this would be true of a Land Rover too. And what I can say is, the 2.8CRD auto goes a lot better than a Tdi or Td5 auto LR does.
Hanslow said:
It's all an idea at the moment, maybe a bit midlife crisis, but just want to experience something a little different, and not a vehicle that could be a number of others. I need a car with character.
The Jeep can certainly deliver on this.Remember it has a removable roof, or there are truck cab conversions kits available from MOPAR. So it gives you lots of choice.
I also love the fact you can lift the doors off and fold the windscreen down. This is something I'd definitely do in the summer.
Half doors and a soft top are available too, as are a host of other goodies.
The JK's come standard with an off road biased TCS system, so don't need lockers for off road use, although MOPAR offer them as do other 3rd party companies if you want them. All UK spec Unlimited's come with the Dana44 axle upgrade package (known as Tow Package in the US). About the only thing Jeep UK did get right.
Dana 44 axles are really strong, so you can run big 35" tyres no probs on them. Unlike the chocolate Land Rover axles that can be broken with 31" tyres off road.
300bhp/ton said:
Remember with the JK Jeep also introduced the lwb Unlimited model to the UK market. This has a 116 inch wheelbase vs 110 inch for a Defender 110.
The Unlimited easily matches or exceeds a 110 for interior space.
Are you sure? I looked at these in 2010 (so they might be updated since) and was very disappointed in the lack of interior space. The rear seat has a 40:20:40 split and the boot was definitely smaller. And while there was more elbow room the windscreen was like a letterbox. Also the rear tailgate is a PITA to use because the spare wheel prevents you opening the upper window.The Unlimited easily matches or exceeds a 110 for interior space.
I could well be wrong as I didn't take a tape measure but they certainly don't feel bigger.
If you can cope with LHD then a Toyota FJ is worth considering.
Bill said:
Are you sure? I looked at these in 2010 (so they might be updated since) and was very disappointed in the lack of interior space. The rear seat has a 40:20:40 split and the boot was definitely smaller. And while there was more elbow room the windscreen was like a letterbox. Also the rear tailgate is a PITA to use because the spare wheel prevents you opening the upper window.
I could well be wrong as I didn't take a tape measure but they certainly don't feel bigger.
If you can cope with LHD then a Toyota FJ is worth considering.
I'll be honest I didn't take a tape measure either. But it was certainly big enough for it's use. The windscreen was no more letterbox than a Defender IMO. But there was more elbow and leg room.I could well be wrong as I didn't take a tape measure but they certainly don't feel bigger.
If you can cope with LHD then a Toyota FJ is worth considering.
Maybe a D110 has a slightly longer load bay. But unless you are using it as a pure utility truck, I'm not sure it matters. The JK Unlimited still looks to have plenty of space.
I sort of agree about the tailgate. Although I'm not sure how else you could do and still keep the top part easily removable. I certainly wouldn't call it a deal breaker. And tbh, unless you are loading something big in the back, you'd just open the bottom half anyhow.
If your getting a JK you're better off getting a soft top.
Otherwise there are better hard top cars around.
With a soft top the boot isn't an issue as the top won't open easily anyhow. (It's zipped.)
In fact - I'd say the Jeep is designed as a soft top and the hard roof is an after though.
There is an after marked add on (£1k+) for a folding roof.
It is not a sensible car.
It is a fun car.
Otherwise there are better hard top cars around.
With a soft top the boot isn't an issue as the top won't open easily anyhow. (It's zipped.)
In fact - I'd say the Jeep is designed as a soft top and the hard roof is an after though.
There is an after marked add on (£1k+) for a folding roof.
It is not a sensible car.
It is a fun car.
Thanks 300bhp for the very informative post!
I was looking at JKs, certainly not new but possibly up to, or around, the 20k mark. It'll be my daily runner, I currently drive a 61 plate MX5, not the most spacious of cars but fun. So this would be a world apart, but entertaining in a different way. All being well, the missus would have my MX5 to replace her current one, and then funds on top for whatever I end up with.
I didn't realise manual gearbox and air con were an either/or option
I also didn't realise the 4 door JKs were longer than a 110 Defender. To my eyes it carries the length better than the 110, maybe due then to the longer wheelbase and slightly shorter overhangs (I'm guessing, I've not looked that closely!).
There's not a lot on the market that floats my boat style wise, hence why I find it so difficult whenever I change cars, and am looking for something that's special in its own way. Doesn't have to be an out and out performance vehicle by any means, I'd just like one that makes me smile to see it or drive it. This is completely outside my normal sphere of vehicle types, I've oft overlooked cars of this ilk for being too heavy and us not needing the practicality. I wouldn't want this to be a project car, I have a 7 for that, so it would need to be generally reliable, hence me considering newer more expensive vehicles.
I recall seeing at most three Wranglers this year, and each made me turn and look, so I've started to see what they offer...
I was looking at JKs, certainly not new but possibly up to, or around, the 20k mark. It'll be my daily runner, I currently drive a 61 plate MX5, not the most spacious of cars but fun. So this would be a world apart, but entertaining in a different way. All being well, the missus would have my MX5 to replace her current one, and then funds on top for whatever I end up with.
I didn't realise manual gearbox and air con were an either/or option
I also didn't realise the 4 door JKs were longer than a 110 Defender. To my eyes it carries the length better than the 110, maybe due then to the longer wheelbase and slightly shorter overhangs (I'm guessing, I've not looked that closely!).There's not a lot on the market that floats my boat style wise, hence why I find it so difficult whenever I change cars, and am looking for something that's special in its own way. Doesn't have to be an out and out performance vehicle by any means, I'd just like one that makes me smile to see it or drive it. This is completely outside my normal sphere of vehicle types, I've oft overlooked cars of this ilk for being too heavy and us not needing the practicality. I wouldn't want this to be a project car, I have a 7 for that, so it would need to be generally reliable, hence me considering newer more expensive vehicles.
I recall seeing at most three Wranglers this year, and each made me turn and look, so I've started to see what they offer...
a couple of points re: the above.
you can tow with a wrangler, they're just not rated for very much due to the short wheelbase. i tow a trailer and track car very easily with my 4.0l TJ and unless its a steep uphill section i barely notice the trailer being there. it;s been used to tow a trailer as a desert rally suppport vehicle and did so with aplomb.
the 4.0l motor rate a classic? by who? sure it has a useful amount of torque and low end grunt but it's big, heavy, thirsty, no top end, agricultural, etc. etc.
as for the manual being 'sporty' i cannot disagree more. i have driven tractors with a better gearchange and the std. car handles poorly. mine needed polybushes all round and bilstein racing shocks before the handling was acceptable even for a utility vehicle. the steering on anything but the JK is as vague as hell.
i have a love/hate affair with my wrangler. it's cracking in the desert but on the roads it's just far too compromised to live with everyday.
you can tow with a wrangler, they're just not rated for very much due to the short wheelbase. i tow a trailer and track car very easily with my 4.0l TJ and unless its a steep uphill section i barely notice the trailer being there. it;s been used to tow a trailer as a desert rally suppport vehicle and did so with aplomb.
the 4.0l motor rate a classic? by who? sure it has a useful amount of torque and low end grunt but it's big, heavy, thirsty, no top end, agricultural, etc. etc.
as for the manual being 'sporty' i cannot disagree more. i have driven tractors with a better gearchange and the std. car handles poorly. mine needed polybushes all round and bilstein racing shocks before the handling was acceptable even for a utility vehicle. the steering on anything but the JK is as vague as hell.
i have a love/hate affair with my wrangler. it's cracking in the desert but on the roads it's just far too compromised to live with everyday.
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