Japanese vs Defender vs anything else
Discussion
Hullo all, apologies if this asked every week.
I'm after a 3rd car for weekend lugging duties. Logs, builders merchant, timber merchant, camping trips etc. It wouldn't do too many miles but it would need to be reliable enough to shoot down a motorway if needed and not cost £000's run.
I'd have bought an old Transit or similar but I need 4 seats to house family. Also 4x4 would be handy because increasingly I need to get up tracks or bumpy, slippery areas for logging.
Naturally, I'd love a 110 Defender SW/Double cab, but it looks like any less than £7-8k can buy dross. It seems like £6k could get me a reasonable Pathfinder/Navarra/L200/Shogun Sport/Cherokee etc. Cheaper the better because it would allow me to put up a man-shed/workshop/outside-office quicker. The more storage the better too.
Over to you. Thanks.
I'm after a 3rd car for weekend lugging duties. Logs, builders merchant, timber merchant, camping trips etc. It wouldn't do too many miles but it would need to be reliable enough to shoot down a motorway if needed and not cost £000's run.
I'd have bought an old Transit or similar but I need 4 seats to house family. Also 4x4 would be handy because increasingly I need to get up tracks or bumpy, slippery areas for logging.
Naturally, I'd love a 110 Defender SW/Double cab, but it looks like any less than £7-8k can buy dross. It seems like £6k could get me a reasonable Pathfinder/Navarra/L200/Shogun Sport/Cherokee etc. Cheaper the better because it would allow me to put up a man-shed/workshop/outside-office quicker. The more storage the better too.
Over to you. Thanks.
Have done huge mileage, lots of towing too with:
Disco 2 (300 &TD5) Disco 3 TDV6, Range Rovers of all types, and a Grand Cherokee (with 3.0 merc diesel) The Disco 2 300 is the ultimate 'ute,crude but effective, the TD5 more refined but heavy on fuel, the \disco 3 fantastic on fuel, fast, amazing towing, complex. the 2002 on Range rover is huge, but will tow at truly outrageous speed. a 2006 Cherokee CRD handles well, is even quicker than a Disco 3, is cheap and very strong mechanically, benefits from the Merc diesel, but has an american interior. All the jap stuff just lags way behind on driveability due to being based on antiquated four wheel drive versions of pick up trucks.
You decide!
Disco 2 (300 &TD5) Disco 3 TDV6, Range Rovers of all types, and a Grand Cherokee (with 3.0 merc diesel) The Disco 2 300 is the ultimate 'ute,crude but effective, the TD5 more refined but heavy on fuel, the \disco 3 fantastic on fuel, fast, amazing towing, complex. the 2002 on Range rover is huge, but will tow at truly outrageous speed. a 2006 Cherokee CRD handles well, is even quicker than a Disco 3, is cheap and very strong mechanically, benefits from the Merc diesel, but has an american interior. All the jap stuff just lags way behind on driveability due to being based on antiquated four wheel drive versions of pick up trucks.
You decide!
Test drive. Test drive. Test drive.
For that money, and your requirement pretty much any of the usual suspects will do what you want.
You could probably look at a nearly new Kia and get a very good car (for a given value of very good).
Personally, I don't like the Disco 2.
You might get a low spec d3 for that money - they are great cars.
But at that price it might come with problems.
For that money, and your requirement pretty much any of the usual suspects will do what you want.
You could probably look at a nearly new Kia and get a very good car (for a given value of very good).
Personally, I don't like the Disco 2.
You might get a low spec d3 for that money - they are great cars.
But at that price it might come with problems.
Thanks for the replies.
I suppose what it boils down to is reliability and mechanicals (which underlines the importance of test drive and condition of individual cars).
In my head I've got this general stereotypical notion that Jap 4x4s (and well maintained Cherokees with the right engine) tend to be a better bet than than Discos and Defenders. -If I haven't driven it all week and jump in for a drive down to the timber merchant, is a Nissan/Mitsubishi going to fire up and run more happily than a Land Rover?
I've also heard horror stories about Jap chassis rusting just as badly as Land Rovers.
To what extent is my understanding b
ks and to be disregarded?
I suppose what it boils down to is reliability and mechanicals (which underlines the importance of test drive and condition of individual cars).
In my head I've got this general stereotypical notion that Jap 4x4s (and well maintained Cherokees with the right engine) tend to be a better bet than than Discos and Defenders. -If I haven't driven it all week and jump in for a drive down to the timber merchant, is a Nissan/Mitsubishi going to fire up and run more happily than a Land Rover?
I've also heard horror stories about Jap chassis rusting just as badly as Land Rovers.
To what extent is my understanding b
ks and to be disregarded?My experience....
Paid 7.5k for an early Navara double cab (recessed headlights upto 51 plate has most robust engine; but like hens teeth now-a-days). At the time LR D110 double cabs were 10k+ and *not* as comfortable to drive. I would still have it had it not been for an accident on the M4 where I ended up on my roof facing the wrong way (truck saved my life no doubt)
Anyway, replaced it with a later 58 plate L200. Looks not to everyone taste, but make same torque and BHP as similar age TD5 and get 40mpg from it. Try that in *any* LR
Cost me 12k. Still see similar age LR double cabs for more money than that.
To be fair I am an LR fan but for every day work horse the Jap stuff can be hard to beat. I have done 20k work miles in the L200 in the last 12 month and that has included hauling fire wood, brick rubble, trailer of bricks and slates as well as a Clerk of the Course truck when I am organising off road events. All on 'tarmac' tyres.
There you go that is just my tuppence.
Paid 7.5k for an early Navara double cab (recessed headlights upto 51 plate has most robust engine; but like hens teeth now-a-days). At the time LR D110 double cabs were 10k+ and *not* as comfortable to drive. I would still have it had it not been for an accident on the M4 where I ended up on my roof facing the wrong way (truck saved my life no doubt)
Anyway, replaced it with a later 58 plate L200. Looks not to everyone taste, but make same torque and BHP as similar age TD5 and get 40mpg from it. Try that in *any* LR
Cost me 12k. Still see similar age LR double cabs for more money than that.To be fair I am an LR fan but for every day work horse the Jap stuff can be hard to beat. I have done 20k work miles in the L200 in the last 12 month and that has included hauling fire wood, brick rubble, trailer of bricks and slates as well as a Clerk of the Course truck when I am organising off road events. All on 'tarmac' tyres.
There you go that is just my tuppence.
captainzep said:
Hullo all, apologies if this asked every week.
I'm after a 3rd car for weekend lugging duties. Logs, builders merchant, timber merchant, camping trips etc. It wouldn't do too many miles but it would need to be reliable enough to shoot down a motorway if needed and not cost £000's run.
I'd have bought an old Transit or similar but I need 4 seats to house family. Also 4x4 would be handy because increasingly I need to get up tracks or bumpy, slippery areas for logging.
Naturally, I'd love a 110 Defender SW/Double cab, but it looks like any less than £7-8k can buy dross. It seems like £6k could get me a reasonable Pathfinder/Navarra/L200/Shogun Sport/Cherokee etc. Cheaper the better because it would allow me to put up a man-shed/workshop/outside-office quicker. The more storage the better too.
Over to you. Thanks.
Remember this about a Defender, that it'll hold it's money well. My Uncle traded in a 110 over 10 years ago, for a then brand new Discovery 2. Today the 110 would still be worth exactly the same as it was when he traded it in, and incidently worth about double what the D2 is today.I'm after a 3rd car for weekend lugging duties. Logs, builders merchant, timber merchant, camping trips etc. It wouldn't do too many miles but it would need to be reliable enough to shoot down a motorway if needed and not cost £000's run.
I'd have bought an old Transit or similar but I need 4 seats to house family. Also 4x4 would be handy because increasingly I need to get up tracks or bumpy, slippery areas for logging.
Naturally, I'd love a 110 Defender SW/Double cab, but it looks like any less than £7-8k can buy dross. It seems like £6k could get me a reasonable Pathfinder/Navarra/L200/Shogun Sport/Cherokee etc. Cheaper the better because it would allow me to put up a man-shed/workshop/outside-office quicker. The more storage the better too.
Over to you. Thanks.
Jap trucks are fine, but IMO mostly inferior to a Defender and will lose a lot more money and I'm not convinced they are actually any cheaper to run or maintain either.
A Left field option would be a Yank pickup. An early Dodge Ram is likely in budget, and on LPG will do similar pence per mile as most of the Jap trucks manage on diesel.
Generally the Yank trucks just do everything better, and again tend to hold their money rather well.
Another left field option would be something like a Santana PS-10. These are partly Land Rover based, but built by Sanatana in Spain. From what I've read very capable vehicles, although there does seem a question mark over certain parts availability. But value for money will nab you a 2004 model or newer for half the price of a 110.
5 seater with an enclosed van back:
Defenders (and early discos) are IMO awesome off road cars, or lifestyle cars - but a terrible choice for a reliable third car family wagon.
A 3rd gen disco is closer to a RR than a defender - but a good one is probably just out of your price range.
I had a hilux surf for 6 years. (The surf is the estate version of the pickup)
10 years old when I bought it.
Started every time, drove to the alps and back a few times.
It even started first time under 3 foot of snow.
Big load bay, good engine, quite comfortable, cheap to maintain.
It's a bit rough and ready and dated, but still damned good.
If I needed a third car 4x4 again that's what I would buy.
I only sold it because the 4x4 became my daily drive and I wanted leather heated seats and a bit more refinement.
A 3rd gen disco is closer to a RR than a defender - but a good one is probably just out of your price range.
I had a hilux surf for 6 years. (The surf is the estate version of the pickup)
10 years old when I bought it.
Started every time, drove to the alps and back a few times.
It even started first time under 3 foot of snow.
Big load bay, good engine, quite comfortable, cheap to maintain.
It's a bit rough and ready and dated, but still damned good.
If I needed a third car 4x4 again that's what I would buy.
I only sold it because the 4x4 became my daily drive and I wanted leather heated seats and a bit more refinement.
300bhp/ton said:
Jap trucks are fine, but IMO mostly inferior to a Defender and will lose a lot more money and I'm not convinced they are actually any cheaper to run or maintain either.
The L200 mentioned, other than an oil change and air filter has only need two bulbs and a wiper blade in 20k miles. I used to be a service mechanic and services a D110 that was owned by a tree surgeon. Wheel bearings, swivel pin reshimed and oil seals pretty much every six months along with the normal engine service.
I 'nipped up' the front wheel bearings on old Navara *once* in 5 years of ownership becuase they got an MOT advise.
I think to be fair it is swings and roundsabout; Jap probably does lose value faster, but to be honest I think that is becuase the more modern looks date faster then the basic shape of the Defender.
captainzep said:
Thanks for the replies.
I suppose what it boils down to is reliability and mechanicals (which underlines the importance of test drive and condition of individual cars).
In my head I've got this general stereotypical notion that Jap 4x4s (and well maintained Cherokees with the right engine) tend to be a better bet than than Discos and Defenders. -If I haven't driven it all week and jump in for a drive down to the timber merchant, is a Nissan/Mitsubishi going to fire up and run more happily than a Land Rover?
I've also heard horror stories about Jap chassis rusting just as badly as Land Rovers.
To what extent is my understanding bks and to be disregarded?
Land Rovers are generally quite durable and reliable in my experience. Even more so Tdi era ones with less electronics. Rarely will they fail to get you home.I suppose what it boils down to is reliability and mechanicals (which underlines the importance of test drive and condition of individual cars).
In my head I've got this general stereotypical notion that Jap 4x4s (and well maintained Cherokees with the right engine) tend to be a better bet than than Discos and Defenders. -If I haven't driven it all week and jump in for a drive down to the timber merchant, is a Nissan/Mitsubishi going to fire up and run more happily than a Land Rover?
I've also heard horror stories about Jap chassis rusting just as badly as Land Rovers.
To what extent is my understanding b
ks and to be disregarded?They will suffer niggles. And due to their design they require more regular planned maintenance, but this isn't unreliability as it's fully expected.
Jap stuff I think tends to suffer less niggles, but when they do fail it's usually more terminal and more expensive.
andyb66 said:
The L200 mentioned, other than an oil change and air filter has only need two bulbs and a wiper blade in 20k miles.
I used to be a service mechanic and services a D110 that was owned by a tree surgeon. Wheel bearings, swivel pin reshimed and oil seals pretty much every six months along with the normal engine service.
I 'nipped up' the front wheel bearings on old Navara *once* in 5 years of ownership becuase they got an MOT advise.
I think to be fair it is swings and roundsabout; Jap probably does lose value faster, but to be honest I think that is becuase the more modern looks date faster then the basic shape of the Defender.
Something else was wrong if you were fitting new wheel bearings ever 6 months.I used to be a service mechanic and services a D110 that was owned by a tree surgeon. Wheel bearings, swivel pin reshimed and oil seals pretty much every six months along with the normal engine service.
I 'nipped up' the front wheel bearings on old Navara *once* in 5 years of ownership becuase they got an MOT advise.
I think to be fair it is swings and roundsabout; Jap probably does lose value faster, but to be honest I think that is becuase the more modern looks date faster then the basic shape of the Defender.
But as I just posted before this, LR's use old tech, so they require more planned maintenance. This doesn't make them unreliable, just more maintenance heavy. As for oil seals, yes they leak - it's a niggle. But a leaky seal will never stop you using the vehicle.
Landy's must be built to last else there simply wouldn't be so many old ones still in regular use. I know personally of LR's in use today that hail fro the early 1950's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's and brand new ones.
I can't claim anything remotely similar for any Jap trucks. The oldest one I knew of was an early 1990's Trooper and my cousins Hilux Surf. The Trooper was scraped because it had rotted away and wasn't worth fixing (the same person also owns an early 1980's ex-Mil Land Rover). And the Hilux was basically binned due to a terminal engine issue that would have cost more than the vehicle was worth to fix. They now have a Disco 2 instead.
300bhp/ton said:
Something else was wrong if you were fitting new wheel bearings ever 6 months.
Didn't say I was replacing wheel bearings; just resetting preload. This was on standard rims and wheels. Oil leaks maybe a day to day 'niggle' but can be MOT failure and ignore any leak and you end up with no oil where there should be oil. Depends on what you are happy to accept I guess.
It can be phrased in different ways - but old Defenders need constant upkeep and maintenance.
That's great for an enthusiast who likes spanners every weekend - but crap for an occasional use third car.
Most Japanese 4x4s finally fail because of lack of maintenance and because they are cheap and easy to replace.
A financially terminal failure on a hilux might just be a bit of 'planned maintenance' on a cherished old 110.
For what you want you need low maintenance and high reliability and a bit of family comfort.
For 7k the only way your getting that is with a lucky find on a cheap D3 or by getting a 6-10 year old Japanese model.
That's great for an enthusiast who likes spanners every weekend - but crap for an occasional use third car.
Most Japanese 4x4s finally fail because of lack of maintenance and because they are cheap and easy to replace.
A financially terminal failure on a hilux might just be a bit of 'planned maintenance' on a cherished old 110.
For what you want you need low maintenance and high reliability and a bit of family comfort.
For 7k the only way your getting that is with a lucky find on a cheap D3 or by getting a 6-10 year old Japanese model.
Snowboy said:
It can be phrased in different ways - but old Defenders need constant upkeep and maintenance.
That's great for an enthusiast who likes spanners every weekend - but crap for an occasional use third car.
Most Japanese 4x4s finally fail because of lack of maintenance and because they are cheap and easy to replace.
A financially terminal failure on a hilux might just be a bit of 'planned maintenance' on a cherished old 110.
For what you want you need low maintenance and high reliability and a bit of family comfort.
For 7k the only way your getting that is with a lucky find on a cheap D3 or by getting a 6-10 year old Japanese model.
+1 That's great for an enthusiast who likes spanners every weekend - but crap for an occasional use third car.
Most Japanese 4x4s finally fail because of lack of maintenance and because they are cheap and easy to replace.
A financially terminal failure on a hilux might just be a bit of 'planned maintenance' on a cherished old 110.
For what you want you need low maintenance and high reliability and a bit of family comfort.
For 7k the only way your getting that is with a lucky find on a cheap D3 or by getting a 6-10 year old Japanese model.
How off-road are the tracks you'll be using? Would something more economical like an X trail or Patriot be suitable? Both are more than capable with a decent set of tyres, can get 50mpg on a long run and are cheap to buy.
We have a Cherokee KK THAT WE BOUGHT FOR £10k with 16k miles this year, might be worth looking at too
We have a Cherokee KK THAT WE BOUGHT FOR £10k with 16k miles this year, might be worth looking at too
Happy82 said:
How off-road are the tracks you'll be using? Would something more economical like an X trail or Patriot be suitable? Both are more than capable with a decent set of tyres, can get 50mpg on a long run and are cheap to buy.
We have a Cherokee KK THAT WE BOUGHT FOR £10k with 16k miles this year, might be worth looking at too
Economy isn't really the issue because it's unlikely to be used outside of a 20 mile radius too often. Although the option of using it as camping/holiday transport would be useful.We have a Cherokee KK THAT WE BOUGHT FOR £10k with 16k miles this year, might be worth looking at too
I've nothing against an X-Trail but I suspect I'll get more 'stuff' in one of the bigger 4x4s.
How 'off-road'? Don't know, but I'm going to be helping an older guy out with sorting some out-of-control hedges on agricultural land here is West Wales from time to time and taking the firewood as payment. Plus, if the opportunity arises I want to buy some woodland where 'access' could be as bad as it gets.
Despite being a huge Land Rover fan, i left out all versions of the defender from my observations in my first post, simply because you have to really want to drive one to live with that driving position, and everything else that goes with it, when you could just drive a disco 2 instead. Having said that then if the Defender is being measured against the jap pick ups, then in the right spec it's better than all of them. Depends on use really. One thing about the defender is it looks great when its a little weathered and dirty, the others look like they need washing weekly.
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