lift kits + big wheels: effect / addtional strain?
Discussion
still looking for a tow car / desert trekker. decided it will very likely be either a 4.0l jeep tj or jk. would prefer to buy it with much of the work already done, without it looking like the offroad equivalent of being driven through halfords covered in glue.
just wondering what the max lift and/or tyre size is on the wrongler without running into trouble elsewhere. i realise that steering stabilisers need to be fitted, but what other work would you want doing if the car has, say, a 4" lift kit and 35" tyres? predominantly, i'm wondering what the increased driveshaft angle and additional unsprung weight has upon the diffs etc.
just wondering what the max lift and/or tyre size is on the wrongler without running into trouble elsewhere. i realise that steering stabilisers need to be fitted, but what other work would you want doing if the car has, say, a 4" lift kit and 35" tyres? predominantly, i'm wondering what the increased driveshaft angle and additional unsprung weight has upon the diffs etc.
shirt said:
i'm wondering what the increased driveshaft angle and additional unsprung weight has upon the diffs etc.
They're not working as intended. They'll wear out/fail quicker or in different ways.Everyone I've ever known fit any form of lift and bigger tyres will defend it all vigourously by saying:
"It's brilliant, it's improved the road holding, off road capability, fuel consumption, and most of all my prowess in bed.
Better still, there have been no negative side effects...<brief pause>...well, apart from the UJs turning to dust every 1000 miles, and the steering linkages all wearing out quicker, oh and then there's the two new transfer boxes I've had to fit....and a gear box. And all the after market shocks I fitted that turned out to be cheap Chinese s
t. But apart from all that it's been great"i'm not expecting great on road prowess, or components to last forever. i'm already fantastic in bed 
lifted wranglers are much more common here than standard ones, and most already ride on wide wheels with at least 31" tyres. i just want to know what can be done in terms of beefier / modified components so i can see if this has been performed. is a smaller suspension lift combined with a body/engine mount lift a better idea?also how to tell that everything has been realigned correctly after the lift.
i'm browsing jeepforum.com as we speak, but it seems to assume a certain level of knowledge already.
lifted wranglers are much more common here than standard ones, and most already ride on wide wheels with at least 31" tyres. i just want to know what can be done in terms of beefier / modified components so i can see if this has been performed. is a smaller suspension lift combined with a body/engine mount lift a better idea?also how to tell that everything has been realigned correctly after the lift.
i'm browsing jeepforum.com as we speak, but it seems to assume a certain level of knowledge already.
Why do you want such a big lift? Won't that mean you're more likely to roll (which is already a risk in dunes)?
Bigger wheels I can understand as it lifts the axle and increases the contact patch as you lower tyre pressures, but I'd have thought more power and lower CoG would be more useful in the desert.
Bigger wheels I can understand as it lifts the axle and increases the contact patch as you lower tyre pressures, but I'd have thought more power and lower CoG would be more useful in the desert.
shirt said:
still looking for a tow car / desert trekker. decided it will very likely be either a 4.0l jeep tj or jk. would prefer to buy it with much of the work already done, without it looking like the offroad equivalent of being driven through halfords covered in glue.
just wondering what the max lift and/or tyre size is on the wrongler without running into trouble elsewhere. i realise that steering stabilisers need to be fitted, but what other work would you want doing if the car has, say, a 4" lift kit and 35" tyres? predominantly, i'm wondering what the increased driveshaft angle and additional unsprung weight has upon the diffs etc.
First off, there's a huge difference between a TJ and a JK, they are totally different vehicles.just wondering what the max lift and/or tyre size is on the wrongler without running into trouble elsewhere. i realise that steering stabilisers need to be fitted, but what other work would you want doing if the car has, say, a 4" lift kit and 35" tyres? predominantly, i'm wondering what the increased driveshaft angle and additional unsprung weight has upon the diffs etc.
Second, a TJ is not a tow car, I think Jeep only rate it at like 1000lbs or something silly. It can manage more, just not officially. So what are you towing? The JK in States also has a punny tow rating of I think 3500lbs. Oddly enough UK spec JK's are rated at 3500kg. See what they did, swap the lbs for kgs
I think this is because in the US if you want to tow you buy a Ram or similar. A Jeep is a recreational vehicle. In the UK this type of vehicle is often used more as a work horse truck or for towing (caravans, horseboxes, etc.)
Interestingly the "Tow pack" in the US gives you a Dana44 rear axle instead of the stock Dana35 on the JK. UK spec JK's all have the Dana44. No idea what they'd have were you are though.
Thirdly, lifts. Running into trouble can occur at various heights. All depends on the exact lift, accompanying mods and intended uses. As well as your personal take on what is or isn't an issue.
Another thing, what height are you starting with initially? A Rubicon has different suspension to a base model X.
Overall though, the JK is a stronger truck and can easily accept 33's with no real mods. 35's are a simple small lift kit away. A TJ will require more work to fit 35's.
Crossflow Kid said:
shirt said:
i'm wondering what the increased driveshaft angle and additional unsprung weight has upon the diffs etc.
They're not working as intended. They'll wear out/fail quicker or in different ways.Everyone I've ever known fit any form of lift and bigger tyres will defend it all vigourously by saying:
"It's brilliant, it's improved the road holding, off road capability, fuel consumption, and most of all my prowess in bed.
Better still, there have been no negative side effects...<brief pause>...well, apart from the UJs turning to dust every 1000 miles, and the steering linkages all wearing out quicker, oh and then there's the two new transfer boxes I've had to fit....and a gear box. And all the after market shocks I fitted that turned out to be cheap Chinese s
t. But apart from all that it's been great"Bill said:
Why do you want such a big lift? Won't that mean you're more likely to roll (which is already a risk in dunes)?
Bigger wheels I can understand as it lifts the axle and increases the contact patch as you lower tyre pressures, but I'd have thought more power and lower CoG would be more useful in the desert.
I agree as an overall principle. But I think it's easy to get hung up on thinking a lift on one vehicle will make it 10 feet taller than another.Bigger wheels I can understand as it lifts the axle and increases the contact patch as you lower tyre pressures, but I'd have thought more power and lower CoG would be more useful in the desert.
Something like a TJ rides quite low for a 4x4 in standard trim. Far lower than say a Defender 90. I guess this might be due to two reasons:
1. Most Wranglers have a 170+hp 4.0 litre engine, so can do 0-60mph in around 8.5 sec and easily top over 100mph. While many are off roaded, it's probably safer to sell to the masses with a more stable street setup.
2. The modding industry in the USA. Cars are sold with the intention people will be modifying them. Jeep have their own tuning division called MOPAR where among many other mods you can buy lift kits and lockers.
This means if you want to off road properly, Jeep expects you to buy a lift kit for the vehicle they've sold to you. Its just their culture really and is the same with fast cars too.
So while a Defender 90 can easily fit 31-32" tyres in stock trim (maybe even narrow 33's). On a TJ Wrangler you'll struggle to fit 30" tall tyres.
So a 2-4" lift actually only lifts them to a similar height as a Defender. So if the Jeep is now unstable, well so is the Landy.....
Also people like Crossflow Kid are prime candidates to accept anything from the factory. Even if they are lifted. I'm sure that Crossflow Kid would have no objections to something like a 1 Ton 109, despite the fact they had a suspension lift and fitted with taller 9.00 series tyres.
I'm also fairly certain if you suggested to them about lifting a standard 109 (achieving the same result as a 1 Ton), then they'd say it's dangerous, wears bits out and performs worse.
Classic Range Rovers with HD factory springs on will sit about 1" than one on normal springs.... But maybe this too wears out transfer boxes and uses cheap Chinese parts?
cheers 300bhp, i was hoping you'd post 
i asked about 4"as a mate [and pher] has one going for a good price, but it came to him in that state so is an unknown quantity. also it would give me the worst case 'what might go wrong' in general.
will be towing a car that weighs 600kg plus a trailer of unknown weight.
plenty of ti's around here, so a diff upgrade and tans cooler could be easily sourced.
i'll post the model when i see it tomorrow. pretty knackered atm.
i asked about 4"as a mate [and pher] has one going for a good price, but it came to him in that state so is an unknown quantity. also it would give me the worst case 'what might go wrong' in general.
will be towing a car that weighs 600kg plus a trailer of unknown weight.
plenty of ti's around here, so a diff upgrade and tans cooler could be easily sourced.
i'll post the model when i see it tomorrow. pretty knackered atm.
You can mitigate some things, but not others.
You can always drop your diff lower to mitigate CV joint issues on an IFS 4x4, but this can lead to issues in the diff if you do not top it up with additional oil.
Big tyres make for extra hearing, so you may find that 4-lo isn't as lo as it was when you started, not to mention just traveling about as normal. Again, this can be mitigated by gearing to a degree. Big tyres can also put extra strain on the diffs, (not so much an issue for a rear solid axle, rather the joints on the front), due to shock loading, more inertia, etc. you can buy HD cv joints, and shafts, but to me this will simply move the issue further up into the transmission. I would rather a CV joint go, than something more expensive up the line! I always carried extra cv joints right and left in the car when off on a jolly. I changed a few on the Isuzu before I lowered the front diff, and never had an issue after.
As for body roll, etc, you can get adjustable suspension that you can change the damping settings, (I had the Rancho XL 9000 on the Isuzu, and they felt quite good from soft to hard), but you will never get it feeling as it was before the lift, in my opinion. Youmcan't counter the fact the vehicle is higher, and the cog has been raised. You cou
D make the track wider as a counter, but again, you simply end up adding more and more bits on, be it bigger rims, spacers, etc. not worth it. Just drive the vehicle within its confines.
You can have a set of road tyres to use when not offloading, but it will look like a roller skate.
You can always drop your diff lower to mitigate CV joint issues on an IFS 4x4, but this can lead to issues in the diff if you do not top it up with additional oil.
Big tyres make for extra hearing, so you may find that 4-lo isn't as lo as it was when you started, not to mention just traveling about as normal. Again, this can be mitigated by gearing to a degree. Big tyres can also put extra strain on the diffs, (not so much an issue for a rear solid axle, rather the joints on the front), due to shock loading, more inertia, etc. you can buy HD cv joints, and shafts, but to me this will simply move the issue further up into the transmission. I would rather a CV joint go, than something more expensive up the line! I always carried extra cv joints right and left in the car when off on a jolly. I changed a few on the Isuzu before I lowered the front diff, and never had an issue after.
As for body roll, etc, you can get adjustable suspension that you can change the damping settings, (I had the Rancho XL 9000 on the Isuzu, and they felt quite good from soft to hard), but you will never get it feeling as it was before the lift, in my opinion. Youmcan't counter the fact the vehicle is higher, and the cog has been raised. You cou
D make the track wider as a counter, but again, you simply end up adding more and more bits on, be it bigger rims, spacers, etc. not worth it. Just drive the vehicle within its confines.
You can have a set of road tyres to use when not offloading, but it will look like a roller skate.
thanks for the replies guys.
to update, i picked this up earlier and it's now in my parking spot:
http://dubai.dubizzle.com/classified/autos4x4s/jee...
2005 4.0l sport with the 6 speed manual. if anyone knows what spec diffs this would have etc. it will save me some time on jeepforums!
lift kit is a 3.5" rubicon express. 33" tyres, warn bumpers and a bunch of spotlights i'm not sure if i'll keep. k&n filter [snorkel not currently connected to the intake, but can do easily] and cat-back exhaust. brush guard, all the plumbing for an onboard compressor [seller kept this] and front mounted winch [same].
drivng impressions are good. seems a load better than the automatic i drove last week and less agricultural than the defender. road noise isn't as bad as i imagined [120kph speed limit helps] and the steering also didn't wander all over as feared. driving into our multistorey car park the first time was interesting though!
due to the local laws, i have to remove the front bumper and lights to pass the road traffic authority inspection. hopefully get it passed this week as it needs to tow my track car next thurs and will be doing it's first wadi trip on the 27th! seller tells me it could use new bushes so the first job is to buy a PU bush kit from the states and blitz the lot.
one pertinent question to ask: is it difficult to recalibrate the speedo? fines are £100 a time here and i'd like to know what my true road speed is on these tyres.
to update, i picked this up earlier and it's now in my parking spot:
http://dubai.dubizzle.com/classified/autos4x4s/jee...
2005 4.0l sport with the 6 speed manual. if anyone knows what spec diffs this would have etc. it will save me some time on jeepforums!
lift kit is a 3.5" rubicon express. 33" tyres, warn bumpers and a bunch of spotlights i'm not sure if i'll keep. k&n filter [snorkel not currently connected to the intake, but can do easily] and cat-back exhaust. brush guard, all the plumbing for an onboard compressor [seller kept this] and front mounted winch [same].
drivng impressions are good. seems a load better than the automatic i drove last week and less agricultural than the defender. road noise isn't as bad as i imagined [120kph speed limit helps] and the steering also didn't wander all over as feared. driving into our multistorey car park the first time was interesting though!
due to the local laws, i have to remove the front bumper and lights to pass the road traffic authority inspection. hopefully get it passed this week as it needs to tow my track car next thurs and will be doing it's first wadi trip on the 27th! seller tells me it could use new bushes so the first job is to buy a PU bush kit from the states and blitz the lot.
one pertinent question to ask: is it difficult to recalibrate the speedo? fines are £100 a time here and i'd like to know what my true road speed is on these tyres.
300bhp/ton said:
Crossflow Kid said:
shirt said:
i'm wondering what the increased driveshaft angle and additional unsprung weight has upon the diffs etc.
They're not working as intended. They'll wear out/fail quicker or in different ways.Everyone I've ever known fit any form of lift and bigger tyres will defend it all vigourously by saying:
"It's brilliant, it's improved the road holding, off road capability, fuel consumption, and most of all my prowess in bed.
Better still, there have been no negative side effects...<brief pause>...well, apart from the UJs turning to dust every 1000 miles, and the steering linkages all wearing out quicker, oh and then there's the two new transfer boxes I've had to fit....and a gear box. And all the after market shocks I fitted that turned out to be cheap Chinese s
t. But apart from all that it's been great"I have a 4.0 Jeep YJ - basically the same as a TJ but with leaf springs instead of coils.
It's running on 35's.
I have a 4" suspension lift with a 3" body lift.
I've not had any problems, and it also runs ok on the road too, although I can't do 80 odd mph anymore like I used to with stock wheels / suspension. Well, I say that, it will do it, but it's a bit 'vibratey' and not terribly comfortable, lol!
Anyway essential mods that I have are:
New engine mounts to tip the motor back more (from Rubicon) - only other mod in the engine bay is to cut a bit from the radiator fan cowling
Gearbox lowering spacers
Double cardan rear prop
Cut and re-welded spring mounts on the axles
Longer brake pipes
That's about it really. Front prop is ok as is. Gearstick moves slightly inside the cabin but not enough to be a problem or warrant mods.
People say the Dana 35 rear axle is weak but I've not had an issue - then again I drive with mechanical sympathy and mostly in wet mud - maybe someone ham fisted on rocks would break it.
I also have Detroit Trutrac lockers front and rear.
Let us know how you get on
It's running on 35's.
I have a 4" suspension lift with a 3" body lift.
I've not had any problems, and it also runs ok on the road too, although I can't do 80 odd mph anymore like I used to with stock wheels / suspension. Well, I say that, it will do it, but it's a bit 'vibratey' and not terribly comfortable, lol!
Anyway essential mods that I have are:
New engine mounts to tip the motor back more (from Rubicon) - only other mod in the engine bay is to cut a bit from the radiator fan cowling
Gearbox lowering spacers
Double cardan rear prop
Cut and re-welded spring mounts on the axles
Longer brake pipes
That's about it really. Front prop is ok as is. Gearstick moves slightly inside the cabin but not enough to be a problem or warrant mods.
People say the Dana 35 rear axle is weak but I've not had an issue - then again I drive with mechanical sympathy and mostly in wet mud - maybe someone ham fisted on rocks would break it.
I also have Detroit Trutrac lockers front and rear.
Let us know how you get on
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
I have a 4.0 Jeep YJ - basically the same as a TJ but with leaf springs instead of coils.
It's running on 35's.
I have a 4" suspension lift with a 3" body lift.
I've not had any problems, and it also runs ok on the road too, although I can't do 80 odd mph anymore like I used to with stock wheels / suspension. Well, I say that, it will do it, but it's a bit 'vibratey' and not terribly comfortable, lol!
Anyway essential mods that I have are:
New engine mounts to tip the motor back more (from Rubicon) - only other mod in the engine bay is to cut a bit from the radiator fan cowling
Gearbox lowering spacers
Double cardan rear prop
Cut and re-welded spring mounts on the axles
Longer brake pipes
That's about it really. Front prop is ok as is. Gearstick moves slightly inside the cabin but not enough to be a problem or warrant mods.
People say the Dana 35 rear axle is weak but I've not had an issue - then again I drive with mechanical sympathy and mostly in wet mud - maybe someone ham fisted on rocks would break it.
I also have Detroit Trutrac lockers front and rear.
Let us know how you get on
You also have a slip yoke eliminator kit, or the standard prop tends to fall out of the back of the gearbox at those lift heights.It's running on 35's.
I have a 4" suspension lift with a 3" body lift.
I've not had any problems, and it also runs ok on the road too, although I can't do 80 odd mph anymore like I used to with stock wheels / suspension. Well, I say that, it will do it, but it's a bit 'vibratey' and not terribly comfortable, lol!
Anyway essential mods that I have are:
New engine mounts to tip the motor back more (from Rubicon) - only other mod in the engine bay is to cut a bit from the radiator fan cowling
Gearbox lowering spacers
Double cardan rear prop
Cut and re-welded spring mounts on the axles
Longer brake pipes
That's about it really. Front prop is ok as is. Gearstick moves slightly inside the cabin but not enough to be a problem or warrant mods.
People say the Dana 35 rear axle is weak but I've not had an issue - then again I drive with mechanical sympathy and mostly in wet mud - maybe someone ham fisted on rocks would break it.
I also have Detroit Trutrac lockers front and rear.
Let us know how you get on
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Let us know how you get on
have yet to go offroad as my mate got called away to a job in kenya and i don't fancy it on my own in case i'm stranded, so here's the seller's pics:
mechanically, it seems very sound indeed. top notch components, nice to find bilstein shocks in there and it's much more composed on the road than my friend's lifted TJ. i do want to know exactly what axle etc. i have though, do you know how i can tell ray?
electrically, it is poor to say the least. i first noticed that the sidelights were coming on when i pressed the brake pedal, then when i took the bumper spots off to pass the RTA inspection found they'd been attached by stripping a little insulation from another wire and simply wrapping the end around this + a bit of insulation tape. someone has got to the rear light cluster before me [i was going to T in my trailer wiring here] and made a right mess of things. some bits are sort of done right [proper relays etc.] but also sort of bodged [relay cable tied to whatever is close rather than mounting it properly].
so, seems to me as though it's had a <how do i put this> third world national wiring job. i am awaiting one of our techs to have a free weekend and he'll go to town on it and rewire whatever he doesn't like the look of.
oh yeah, the interior light doesn't go off when driving. it used to, but not since i took a short cut over a building site to avoid a traffic jam [was rather bumpy].
other than that, i took the rear bumper off last night and am just drawing it up in 3D. I want to have some mounting brackets added so it locates down the chassis legs. i don't trust towing my track car with the current set-up. it'll then be shot blasted and powder coated, i'll take pics if anyone is interested.
sorry for the long post. am loving the wrongler much more than i thought i would, even the 15 mpg amuses me!
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