Buying a 50's/60's strat/tele
Discussion
I really fancy buying the real deal, as in one of these old guitars that are from that era, no reissues or copies, I mean THE real thing.
Are they called relics? Would they be an investment? How would you know if it was really a 50's guitar? Where would I buy one?
Your thoughts gentlemen
Are they called relics? Would they be an investment? How would you know if it was really a 50's guitar? Where would I buy one?
Your thoughts gentlemen
I had the privilege of playing a '58 strat today - wonderful...
My guess is that they will continue to creep up in value but for the most desirable '57's or 62's you'll pay a premium. Having said that the '58 sounded incredible and played a dream and I doubt there is much difference between a '57 and '58 or indeed a '62 or '63.
They aren't relics - that's usually reserved for more modern guitars that have been artifically aged.
If I were buying today I would probably start at Vintage and Rare in either London or Bath. The easy way to tell if its the real deal is to ask the seller to show the heel of the neck as it should have the date written on it and if they remove the pickguard the body and pickups should also be marked. If you have a look on the web there's a few pages on identifying them. Those pages will also give you numbers to ID the pots. There are loads of other pointers too which you can research on these sites.
Cheers
DC
ETA
http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/web/our-catal...
http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/web/our-catal...
These might be a good way in - both need a little restoration - and I mean a little, like sourcing a new scratch plate...
Oh yes - budget wise expect £16K to £25K depending on year for an investment grade pre CBS strat - players ones like those linked tend to be a bit cheaper...
My guess is that they will continue to creep up in value but for the most desirable '57's or 62's you'll pay a premium. Having said that the '58 sounded incredible and played a dream and I doubt there is much difference between a '57 and '58 or indeed a '62 or '63.
They aren't relics - that's usually reserved for more modern guitars that have been artifically aged.
If I were buying today I would probably start at Vintage and Rare in either London or Bath. The easy way to tell if its the real deal is to ask the seller to show the heel of the neck as it should have the date written on it and if they remove the pickguard the body and pickups should also be marked. If you have a look on the web there's a few pages on identifying them. Those pages will also give you numbers to ID the pots. There are loads of other pointers too which you can research on these sites.
Cheers
DC
ETA
http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/web/our-catal...
http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/web/our-catal...
These might be a good way in - both need a little restoration - and I mean a little, like sourcing a new scratch plate...
Oh yes - budget wise expect £16K to £25K depending on year for an investment grade pre CBS strat - players ones like those linked tend to be a bit cheaper...
Edited by Dai Capp on Wednesday 12th May 17:32
Edited by Dai Capp on Wednesday 12th May 17:40
And how about this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fender-1955-Stratocaster-All...
and remember if you're getting an oldie make sure it's pre CBS ie pre '64 to be safe - some very early '64 strats were also pre CBS
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fender-1955-Stratocaster-All...
and remember if you're getting an oldie make sure it's pre CBS ie pre '64 to be safe - some very early '64 strats were also pre CBS
I know somwbody who has a large collection of mint 50's & 60's Fenders and Gibsons, and I can tell you that buying is a minefield.
He recently saw in a 'reputable' shop in the 'states and then in a 'reputable' shop in Denmark Street, the SAME guitar, which was dated by serial number (wrongly) to a certain year in the 'states, yet in the correct colour 'original' case for that year and with hang tags, but which was (correctly) dated to one year later in the London shop but then in a different correct colour 'original' case for that later year, and no tags .... which just happened to be found on another guitar back in the 'states. All allegedly of course
That guitar itself was right and excellent, but it's so very easy to obtain the then mass produced parts for a certain year and produce a guitar that is not all it seems.
He recently saw in a 'reputable' shop in the 'states and then in a 'reputable' shop in Denmark Street, the SAME guitar, which was dated by serial number (wrongly) to a certain year in the 'states, yet in the correct colour 'original' case for that year and with hang tags, but which was (correctly) dated to one year later in the London shop but then in a different correct colour 'original' case for that later year, and no tags .... which just happened to be found on another guitar back in the 'states. All allegedly of course
That guitar itself was right and excellent, but it's so very easy to obtain the then mass produced parts for a certain year and produce a guitar that is not all it seems.
Elderly said:
I know somwbody who has a large collection of mint 50's & 60's Fenders and Gibsons, and I can tell you that buying is a minefield.
He recently saw in a 'reputable' shop in the 'states and then in a 'reputable' shop in Denmark Street, the SAME guitar, which was dated by serial number (wrongly) to a certain year in the 'states, yet in the correct colour 'original' case for that year and with hang tags, but which was (correctly) dated to one year later in the London shop but then in a different correct colour 'original' case for that later year, and no tags .... which just happened to be found on another guitar back in the 'states. All allegedly of course
That guitar itself was right and excellent, but it's so very easy to obtain the then mass produced parts for a certain year and produce a guitar that is not all it seems.
Real or fake:He recently saw in a 'reputable' shop in the 'states and then in a 'reputable' shop in Denmark Street, the SAME guitar, which was dated by serial number (wrongly) to a certain year in the 'states, yet in the correct colour 'original' case for that year and with hang tags, but which was (correctly) dated to one year later in the London shop but then in a different correct colour 'original' case for that later year, and no tags .... which just happened to be found on another guitar back in the 'states. All allegedly of course
That guitar itself was right and excellent, but it's so very easy to obtain the then mass produced parts for a certain year and produce a guitar that is not all it seems.
Here's my '09 roadworn with a few mods.
As already advised, buying pre CBS is a bit tricky.
To be honest I wouldn't buy one even if I could afford it. It is as you say a minefield and you could end up with a tidy sum invested in something which might not even be right, and if proven not to be right could lose all its value in an instant. In the meantime you've got something you can't really enjoy, because you'll probably be scared to take it out of the house.
In my book guitars should be played. The latest vintage reissues are absolutely fantastic, and if it does get knocked over at a gig in the local Dog and Duck, it's no disaster.
In my book guitars should be played. The latest vintage reissues are absolutely fantastic, and if it does get knocked over at a gig in the local Dog and Duck, it's no disaster.
aidb said:
Elderly said:
I know somwbody who has a large collection of mint 50's & 60's Fenders and Gibsons, and I can tell you that buying is a minefield.
He recently saw in a 'reputable' shop in the 'states and then in a 'reputable' shop in Denmark Street, the SAME guitar, which was dated by serial number (wrongly) to a certain year in the 'states, yet in the correct colour 'original' case for that year and with hang tags, but which was (correctly) dated to one year later in the London shop but then in a different correct colour 'original' case for that later year, and no tags .... which just happened to be found on another guitar back in the 'states. All allegedly of course
That guitar itself was right and excellent, but it's so very easy to obtain the then mass produced parts for a certain year and produce a guitar that is not all it seems.
Real or fake:He recently saw in a 'reputable' shop in the 'states and then in a 'reputable' shop in Denmark Street, the SAME guitar, which was dated by serial number (wrongly) to a certain year in the 'states, yet in the correct colour 'original' case for that year and with hang tags, but which was (correctly) dated to one year later in the London shop but then in a different correct colour 'original' case for that later year, and no tags .... which just happened to be found on another guitar back in the 'states. All allegedly of course
That guitar itself was right and excellent, but it's so very easy to obtain the then mass produced parts for a certain year and produce a guitar that is not all it seems.
Here's my '09 roadworn with a few mods.
As already advised, buying pre CBS is a bit tricky.
As far as the OP is concerned the advise is constant - homework, homework, homework, great deal of care and attention, more homework, more care and attention and then some more homework.
If possible buy either from a recognised seller or a private collection.
Dai Capp said:
As far as the OP is concerned the advise is constant - homework, homework, homework, great deal of care and attention, more homework, more care and attention and then some more homework.
If possible buy either from a recognised seller or a private collection.
I certainly agree with the first sentence, but the point I was making was that the very same guitar I mentioned above, was for sale (at two different times) from two VERY recognised dealers (it might now be in a private collection and what will it be when/if it's later sold?).If possible buy either from a recognised seller or a private collection.
You have to be VERY careful!
Out of interest... is this just to make money, or to make music?
If the latter, there are many better examples, at a lot less money. If the former, then there are more sure fire ways of getting a return. If it's just the romance, well then good luck my friend. Good on you. (Though your accountant will be on your heels!).
If the latter, there are many better examples, at a lot less money. If the former, then there are more sure fire ways of getting a return. If it's just the romance, well then good luck my friend. Good on you. (Though your accountant will be on your heels!).
GetCarter said:
Out of interest... is this just to make money, or to make music?
If the latter, there are many better examples, at a lot less money. If the former, then there are more sure fire ways of getting a return. If it's just the romance, well then good luck my friend. Good on you. (Though your accountant will be on your heels!).
I think a lot of the time it's the romance and if that's the case then you'd better have deep pockets so you don't miss the cash!If the latter, there are many better examples, at a lot less money. If the former, then there are more sure fire ways of getting a return. If it's just the romance, well then good luck my friend. Good on you. (Though your accountant will be on your heels!).
I'd be interested on your thoughts on tone - '62 strats sound especially nice to my ears and I would chuffed to get something that sounds as good that would be affordable. You've way more knowledge than me in this area so a trade secret or two would be great!
All the best
DC
Crumbs allot of replies, I'll be brief now as I have to be. If I bought one, it would be a mix of all three, to make (even a modest amount of) money, to make music (i'd love to use it in the studio) and of course the romance.
You are right about the dangers of this, plus it's not the best money maker, music maker and there are some cars for that sort of money are worth looking at for the romance.
24k!!!!! WOW didn't expect one to be that much.
You are right about the dangers of this, plus it's not the best money maker, music maker and there are some cars for that sort of money are worth looking at for the romance.
24k!!!!! WOW didn't expect one to be that much.
Dai Capp said:
GetCarter said:
Out of interest... is this just to make money, or to make music?
If the latter, there are many better examples, at a lot less money. If the former, then there are more sure fire ways of getting a return. If it's just the romance, well then good luck my friend. Good on you. (Though your accountant will be on your heels!).
I think a lot of the time it's the romance and if that's the case then you'd better have deep pockets so you don't miss the cash!If the latter, there are many better examples, at a lot less money. If the former, then there are more sure fire ways of getting a return. If it's just the romance, well then good luck my friend. Good on you. (Though your accountant will be on your heels!).
I'd be interested on your thoughts on tone - '62 strats sound especially nice to my ears and I would chuffed to get something that sounds as good that would be affordable. You've way more knowledge than me in this area so a trade secret or two would be great!
All the best
DC
also: http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/web/Our-Catal...
but for a versatile well thought out modern design, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRS_Guitars
GetCarter said:
Out of interest... is this just to make money, or to make music?
They are not exclusive - a member of my family has a Strad (not a Strat), he makes music and his children will make money.I've always believed in buying an old musical instrument 'just because it's a lovely thing' (it's got to be 'right' too)
and over the years whilst they have made music, they've also made money - over the same period I would probably have made more money from
cars but they are more problematic to store (in a similar quantity) and maintain.
To the OP - If you can afford it, go for it but if you are spending big money be VERY VERY careful what you buy.
GetCarter said:
Dai Capp said:
GetCarter said:
Out of interest... is this just to make money, or to make music?
If the latter, there are many better examples, at a lot less money. If the former, then there are more sure fire ways of getting a return. If it's just the romance, well then good luck my friend. Good on you. (Though your accountant will be on your heels!).
I think a lot of the time it's the romance and if that's the case then you'd better have deep pockets so you don't miss the cash!If the latter, there are many better examples, at a lot less money. If the former, then there are more sure fire ways of getting a return. If it's just the romance, well then good luck my friend. Good on you. (Though your accountant will be on your heels!).
I'd be interested on your thoughts on tone - '62 strats sound especially nice to my ears and I would chuffed to get something that sounds as good that would be affordable. You've way more knowledge than me in this area so a trade secret or two would be great!
All the best
DC
also: http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/web/Our-Catal...
but for a versatile well thought out modern design, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRS_Guitars
I went over to Los Angeles last month and arranged to visit http://www.frettedamericana.com/ whilst I was there. For those of you who don't know about this place, go to Youtube and search for 'fretted americana', there are loads of videos of the wonderful guitars they have.
When I visited I intended just looking around, but was asked what I'd like to play. I was sat down at a vintage AC30, and after mumbling "erm... Les Paul" was handed a '55 goldtop worth $78k, which sounded phenomenal and was beautifully worn in with cracked lacquer and beautiful smooth tone. I couldn't get a bad sound out of it. Of course my playing fell apart a bit in the situation, and I was playing it with kid gloves as it is worth the same as quarter of my house!
I also played a '58 Strat* that had been refinished at the factory in the early 60s I think. This was interesting for me as I have just taken delivery of a Callaham S series (after a 2 year wait for it to be built). A hand built strat from a small shop in the USA. The '58 was a beautiful thing, and yes the vibe of it was really alluring. I would have taken both in a heart beat, but the Callaham isn't that far off sonically, its beautifully built, plays sweetly and smoothly and came in at around £2000. It just doesn't have that vintage vibe. I will add this myself over the years hopefully.
Visiting FA has opened my eyes to buying old and not new. I believe if you do the homework you can end up with a tactile, worn in and hopefully beneficially aged instrument for using that offers great value for money.
If you are serious about old instruments, it may be worth you looking at the FA site.
If I came into some cash, an early Les Paul would definitely be on my list! Absolutely stunning.
When I visited I intended just looking around, but was asked what I'd like to play. I was sat down at a vintage AC30, and after mumbling "erm... Les Paul" was handed a '55 goldtop worth $78k, which sounded phenomenal and was beautifully worn in with cracked lacquer and beautiful smooth tone. I couldn't get a bad sound out of it. Of course my playing fell apart a bit in the situation, and I was playing it with kid gloves as it is worth the same as quarter of my house!
I also played a '58 Strat* that had been refinished at the factory in the early 60s I think. This was interesting for me as I have just taken delivery of a Callaham S series (after a 2 year wait for it to be built). A hand built strat from a small shop in the USA. The '58 was a beautiful thing, and yes the vibe of it was really alluring. I would have taken both in a heart beat, but the Callaham isn't that far off sonically, its beautifully built, plays sweetly and smoothly and came in at around £2000. It just doesn't have that vintage vibe. I will add this myself over the years hopefully.
Visiting FA has opened my eyes to buying old and not new. I believe if you do the homework you can end up with a tactile, worn in and hopefully beneficially aged instrument for using that offers great value for money.
If you are serious about old instruments, it may be worth you looking at the FA site.
If I came into some cash, an early Les Paul would definitely be on my list! Absolutely stunning.
- Wrong, this is from the website.
Edited by joesnow on Friday 14th May 01:23
Best way to tell a really old Fender from a reproduction is to open it up and look inside, you will need to have looked inside a lot of guitars for this to work, though, so probably the best thing to do is to get an experienced guitar repairer to have a look.
Although all the parts can be got, if you look hard enough, the patina on a really old set of components such as pots, capacitor and the soldering is almost impossible to duplicate
Although all the parts can be got, if you look hard enough, the patina on a really old set of components such as pots, capacitor and the soldering is almost impossible to duplicate
Not a Strat and probably not much of an investment either but an interesting story non the less.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gibson-Les-Paul-25-50-one-10...
One day, maybe.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1959-Gibson-Les-Paul-Standar...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gibson-Les-Paul-25-50-one-10...
One day, maybe.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1959-Gibson-Les-Paul-Standar...
Dai Capp said:
And how about this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fender-1955-Stratocaster-All...
and remember if you're getting an oldie make sure it's pre CBS ie pre '64 to be safe - some very early '64 strats were also pre CBS
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fender-1955-Stratocaster-All...
and remember if you're getting an oldie make sure it's pre CBS ie pre '64 to be safe - some very early '64 strats were also pre CBS
that's immaculate condition considering it's 55 years old!Gassing Station | Music | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff