Mixing advice?

[qube_TA]

Hi,

I'm trying to get better at writing music (new age / ambient) but am struggling with mixing, particularly with acoustic sounds when used alongside synths.

If I record a piano, it sounds fine, but as soon as I start adding in layers it'll just get lost very quickly even if I turn everything else down. I can use compression on it which certainly brings it out but it will then sound really harsh and gated. No matter what I do I can't seem to ever fix it without simply binning most of the other tracks. I've tried using a little bit of compression on all tracks and use side-chain on the acoustic parts but end up with a very squashed sounding piece of music.

I appreciate that some folk make a living knowing how to do this sort of thing so it's not something that can be taught in 5 minutes but any advice would be gratefully received.

I use Logic on OSX, using Alesis monitors.

Here is an example of a noodle I'm working on: http://www.dreamconspiracy.co.uk/Tunes/counterpoin... uses 5 keyboards and a single piano (the piano starts about a 3rd of the way in). I've dicked about with it so much I'll have to re-record the piano part as I've sucked the life out of it.

Thanks.

[Z06George]

If you haven't already try normailizing the piano before doing anything else to it.

With regards to compression, I wouldn't really use it on a piano. But if that's the sound you want try making the gate less harsh and also bring up the make up gain in the compressor.

[qube_TA]

increasing the gain really makes it sound harsh.

I'll dump a track of the piano solo'ed

[patchst]

Try are putting the piano on one side of the mix and the synth on the other, If your still having issues try eqing the Synth so that the frequencies where the piano is does not conflict. Other things to try are Parallel compression on the piano.

Edited by patchst on Tuesday 2nd March 13:31

Edited by patchst on Tuesday 2nd March 13:33

[Greg964]

I dont think you need to compress that piano, I think its just that you've got too many elements fighting for the same bit of frequency range. Perhaps group the synth layers into one eq bus and apply a slight dip where the piano is playing.

[ShadownINja]

Just a little thought... does it have to stand out? By virtue of the style, it can blend happily in a fluffy bunny floating through clouds on a summer's day kind of way. PS the mp3 sounds great as it is. I'd play that in one of my meditation classes.

ETA: why not increase the output volume of the piano (assume it's digital?) before the sound goes anywhere near a computer?

Edited by ShadownINja on Tuesday 2nd March 14:21

[brayash]

^^ What Greg964 said.

It's called 'frequency masking'. To give it a motoring anaolgy (we are on PH), imagine a supermarket car park full of cars. Each has an engine running, and though you might get the odd howling V10 or something, for the most part the engines will not be dicernable from one another. Now somebody starts up a two-stroke bike. It can immediately be heard/recognised.

The same applies with an area full of bikes, and then somebody starts a car up.

This is what's happening when you can't really hear the piano anymore. So as has been suggested, if you want the piano to really shine, or take a little more priority in the mix, you have to make the other instruments sound a little different. You could modify (EQ) the piano, but it'll inevitably ruin it. Pianos generally aren't to be messed with unless that's the effect your going for. Imagine a mongoose exhaust on an F430 for example.

What you really need (by the sounds of things) is an F430 surrounded by fiestas. So - make the other instruments a little more fiesta like. Make a relatively wide dip (curvy not pointy) in your EQ that you've applied to the other instruments, and just move it up and down the frequency scale and experiment. You shouldn't need to take too much out, it's more about finding a 'sweet spot' where the piano makes itself known than killing all your other synths.

HTH

[qube_TA]

Thanks, I like the piano to sound nice n silky and a little bit subtle but I end up having to mash the keys to be able to hear them!

I'll try remixing it, starting with the piano, get that sounding nice and then moving to the other instruments and see how I get on.

Cheers

[KB_S1]

Think arrangement before mix.


Oh and please don't normalize anything.

Ever.

[Evangelion]

Agree with others that you don't want to mess with the piano sound too much. I tend to reduce the bottom frequencies as they don't do much except get in the way of other things! Best approach would be to try finding the frequency in the other instrument(s) that's masking the piano, and reduce that.

I used to eq things to death in my early days, and it just ended up sounding weird.

[qube_TA]

KB_S1 said:

Think arrangement before mix.


Oh and please don't normalize anything.

Ever.

I normalise the whole lot when I bounce it to a WAV,

[KB_S1]

qube_TA said:

KB_S1 said:

Think arrangement before mix.


Oh and please don't normalize anything.

Ever.

I normalise the whole lot when I bounce it to a WAV,

For rough bounces or for mixes that are intended for release?

If they are proper mixes heading off for master not only does the normalising have a negative impact on the audio but it then leaves nowhere to adjust for mastering balance between songs.

Then there is the whole debate of clipping on playback.


Back to OP:

How are you recording the piano?
If you plan to add a lot of synth sounds perhaps a more aggressive recording could help.
Although it may not sound as good on its own it may help it out in the finished piece.
Perhaps record closer to the hammers than normal?

[qube_TA]

Only done rough mixes so far, but yes you're right if mastering an album normalising would be bad.

as for the recording, it was line out from my keyboard into the DAW dry without any FX, added EQ and reverb once there.

I've remixed it again, taken off all the compression, adjusted levels and EQ, sounds better now I reckon, thanks for advice.