Dm9?

[Get Karter]

For anyone who knows their music theory, I have a question on a song I am deciphering....

If E is the melody note held over a Dm chord, does that mean that the Dm chord is actually a Dm9?

[Sim89]

Im far from an expert but from what I can work out

Dm9 is D,F,A,C,E. Notes in the chord of D are D, F, C#, E

I think the m9 is the C

Sub the D and its Fmaj

[Get Karter]

Sim89 said:

Im far from an expert but from what I can work out

Dm9 is D,F,A,C,E. Notes in the chord of D are D, F, C#, E

I think the m9 is the C

Sub the D and its Fmaj

Ahh, the C is actually the 7th (as the 8th is always the root + 1 octave)...but you have made a good point. I forgot that a 9th chord is the 7th chord plus the 9th note.
What I talk about in my OP is actually a Dm chord plus the 9th.

Therefore it is probably not a Dm9 but a Dm +9 (i.e. no 7th)

Edited by Get Karter on Wednesday 9th September 14:15

[timbob]

Get Karter said:

Sim89 said:

Im far from an expert but from what I can work out

Dm9 is D,F,A,C,E. Notes in the chord of D are D, F, C#, E

I think the m9 is the C

Sub the D and its Fmaj

Ahh, the C is actually the 7th (as the 8th is always the root + 1 octave)...but you have made a good point. I forgot that a 9th chord is the 7th chord plus the 9th note.
What I talk about in my OP is actually a Dm chord plus the 9th.

Therefore it is probably not a Dm9 but a Dm +9 (i.e. no 7th)

"It all depends" is usually the answer with regards to chord related questions!

You could write it as Dm +9, it would be technically correct.

You could also just write it as Dm9 - if the 9th is there, adding the 7th to the chord won't change the sound/function of the harmony very much.

Of course, it could just be a plain simple Dm chord, with an E in the melody - the chord doesn't necessarily have to reflect that!

All 3 are, in my mind "right".

It's all in the arranging of the notes - as the previous poster has said - get rid of the D, and you're left with an Fmaj7 chord. With the D, you could have an Fmaj7(+13) chord. You could even interpret the same notes as an E7sus(b9) chord....!

Edited by timbob on Wednesday 9th September 16:17

[GetCarter]

Firstly, you still can't spell

Secondly, No it means nothing of the sort. All it means is that the melody is playing an E and the chord below is a D-. E just happens to be the 9th. If you stopped the tape and played D- with an E it would however be a D-9

[Get Karter]

timbob said:

"It all depends" is usually the answer with regards to chord related questions!

You could write it as Dm +9, it would be technically correct.

You could also just write it as Dm9 - if the 9th is there, adding the 7th to the chord won't change the sound/function of the harmony very much.

Of course, it could just be a plain simple Dm chord, with an E in the melody - the chord doesn't necessarily have to reflect that!

All 3 are, in my mind "right".

It's all in the arranging of the notes - as the previous poster has said - get rid of the D, and you're left with an Fmaj7 chord. With the D, you could have an Fmaj7(+13) chord. You could even interpret the same notes as an E7sus(b9) chord....!

Edited by timbob on Wednesday 9th September 16:17

Thanks for that considered explanation. I know there are few definite rules in music, which is quite irritating in a way, as I like black and white rather than grey.
The thing that I really want to be able to do is work out what chords to use behind a melody.
More often than not, the dominant melody note is the 5th of the chord, which makes a lot of stuff easy to work out. Failing that it is usually the 3rd or the root.

However, how the heck am I meant to know when to use Dm chord(rather than A, Am, C, E or Em) when E is the melody note.....what rule does that follow?....are there any hints that could lead us to a Dm conclusion from an E melody?
Or do I simply need a more cultured ear?

GetCarter said:

Secondly, No it means nothing of the sort. All it means is that the melody is playing an E and the chord below is a D-. E just happens to be the 9th. If you stopped the tape and played D- with an E it would however be a D-9

[Dr Evil voice on] Ah GetCarter, finally we meet.......we're not so different you and I.......[/Dr Evil voice off]

Thanks for your somewhat more blunt input to the debate So it's ok to simply say its a Dm with an E melody. That suits me just fine.

Any input on my questions above of how you'd work out what chord is used in a particular piece, if it is not straightforward?

I want to get better and quicker at working this stuff out.

Many thanks.

[Evangelion]

A Dm9 has both a 7th and a 9th (c and E) added.

A Dm chord with an E bunged in it some where would be a Dm+9 (pronounced D minor added 9th).

On a piano, you can get a Dm9 by playing a Dm in the left hand and an Am in the right hand. For a Dm+9 you will need an A5 (A and E only) in the right hand.

[timbob]

Get Karter said:

timbob said:

"It all depends" is usually the answer with regards to chord related questions!

You could write it as Dm +9, it would be technically correct.

You could also just write it as Dm9 - if the 9th is there, adding the 7th to the chord won't change the sound/function of the harmony very much.

Of course, it could just be a plain simple Dm chord, with an E in the melody - the chord doesn't necessarily have to reflect that!

All 3 are, in my mind "right".

It's all in the arranging of the notes - as the previous poster has said - get rid of the D, and you're left with an Fmaj7 chord. With the D, you could have an Fmaj7(+13) chord. You could even interpret the same notes as an E7sus(b9) chord....!

Edited by timbob on Wednesday 9th September 16:17

Thanks for that considered explanation. I know there are few definite rules in music, which is quite irritating in a way, as I like black and white rather than grey.
The thing that I really want to be able to do is work out what chords to use behind a melody.
More often than not, the dominant melody note is the 5th of the chord, which makes a lot of stuff easy to work out. Failing that it is usually the 3rd or the root.

However, how the heck am I meant to know when to use Dm chord(rather than A, Am, C, E or Em) when E is the melody note.....what rule does that follow?....are there any hints that could lead us to a Dm conclusion from an E melody?
Or do I simply need a more cultured ear?

Listen to the bass, and pick out what note he's playing.

Even in Jazz music (which I think is generally considered to be one of the most harmonically complex forms of music), the bass player almost universally plays the root note of the chord on the first beat of each bar - or first beat of a new chord, if the chord changes during a bar.

In harmonically simpler rock/pop/country music etc., I'd be happy putting a fair amount of money on almost never finding a chord in any tune that didn't have the root in the bass (unless in special circumstances) - it's a virtually bulletproof rule of thumb.

For example, let's take a basic A C E triad in the right hand of the piano, and go through some options:

Get a bass player to play an A underneath it, and we have a bog standard, boring A minor chord.

If the bass player plays a C on his bass, we're looking at a C6 chord (old fashioned 1920s theatre organ chord!)

If the bass player played an F, we'd notate it as an Fmaj7 chord.

He could play an F#, and we'd have an F# half diminished chord.

He could play a D, and we'd write the chord as D9 (or Dm9 - there's no third, so we'd be unsure and use our ear to decide the major/minor tonality)

As you can see, if you're just listening out for the "chord" in the recording you're transcribing, all you'll hear is the "A C E" part on the guitar or piano. Without the context of the bass note underneath though, you'll be none the wiser to what the chord actually is.

[Get Karter]

timbob said:

Listen to the bass, and pick out what note he's playing.

Even in Jazz music (which I think is generally considered to be one of the most harmonically complex forms of music), the bass player almost universally plays the root note of the chord on the first beat of each bar - or first beat of a new chord, if the chord changes during a bar.

In harmonically simpler rock/pop/country music etc., I'd be happy putting a fair amount of money on almost never finding a chord in any tune that didn't have the root in the bass (unless in special circumstances) - it's a virtually bulletproof rule of thumb.

For example, let's take a basic A C E triad in the right hand of the piano, and go through some options:

Get a bass player to play an A underneath it, and we have a bog standard, boring A minor chord.

If the bass player plays a C on his bass, we're looking at a C6 chord (old fashioned 1920s theatre organ chord!)

If the bass player played an F, we'd notate it as an Fmaj7 chord.

He could play an F#, and we'd have an F# half diminished chord.

He could play a D, and we'd write the chord as D9 (or Dm9 - there's no third, so we'd be unsure and use our ear to decide the major/minor tonality)

As you can see, if you're just listening out for the "chord" in the recording you're transcribing, all you'll hear is the "A C E" part on the guitar or piano. Without the context of the bass note underneath though, you'll be none the wiser to what the chord actually is.

Great tip thanks.

PS. In blues though, the bass can stay on the key root when the chord moves to the 4th. i.e. in C, the bass sounds right staying on the C when the chord has moved to the F (thus playing the 5th of the 4th chord, rather than the root).

[timbob]

Get Karter said:

timbob said:

Listen to the bass, and pick out what note he's playing.

Even in Jazz music (which I think is generally considered to be one of the most harmonically complex forms of music), the bass player almost universally plays the root note of the chord on the first beat of each bar - or first beat of a new chord, if the chord changes during a bar.

In harmonically simpler rock/pop/country music etc., I'd be happy putting a fair amount of money on almost never finding a chord in any tune that didn't have the root in the bass (unless in special circumstances) - it's a virtually bulletproof rule of thumb.

For example, let's take a basic A C E triad in the right hand of the piano, and go through some options:

Get a bass player to play an A underneath it, and we have a bog standard, boring A minor chord.

If the bass player plays a C on his bass, we're looking at a C6 chord (old fashioned 1920s theatre organ chord!)

If the bass player played an F, we'd notate it as an Fmaj7 chord.

He could play an F#, and we'd have an F# half diminished chord.

He could play a D, and we'd write the chord as D9 (or Dm9 - there's no third, so we'd be unsure and use our ear to decide the major/minor tonality)

As you can see, if you're just listening out for the "chord" in the recording you're transcribing, all you'll hear is the "A C E" part on the guitar or piano. Without the context of the bass note underneath though, you'll be none the wiser to what the chord actually is.

Great tip thanks.

PS. In blues though, the bass can stay on the key root when the chord moves to the 4th. i.e. in C, the bass sounds right staying on the C when the chord has moved to the F (thus playing the 5th of the 4th chord, rather than the root).

Indeed it can. That's where slash chords come in - the chord you've described above would be written as F/C (an F chord played over a C in the bass). When it comes to working out slash chords, it's really only your ear that can help! Helpfully though, the top chord is usually (and technically should always be) a simple triad.

[GetCarter]

timbob said:

the top chord is usually (and technically should always be) a simple triad.

I am so screwed!

[tank slapper]

Get Karter said:

However, how the heck am I meant to know when to use Dm chord(rather than A, Am, C, E or Em) when E is the melody note.....what rule does that follow?....are there any hints that could lead us to a Dm conclusion from an E melody?
Or do I simply need a more cultured ear?

There isn't really any rule in that case. A sustained melody note rather than a passing note can be coloured quite nicely by using unexpected harmony underneath it. That really depends on context though, and it will be down to your judgement as to what fits nicely.

timbob said:

For example, let's take a basic A C E triad in the right hand of the piano, and go through some options:

Get a bass player to play an A underneath it, and we have a bog standard, boring A minor chord.

If the bass player plays a C on his bass, we're looking at a C6 chord (old fashioned 1920s theatre organ chord!)

If the bass player played an F, we'd notate it as an Fmaj7 chord.

He could play an F#, and we'd have an F# half diminished chord.

He could play a D, and we'd write the chord as D9 (or Dm9 - there's no third, so we'd be unsure and use our ear to decide the major/minor tonality)

As you can see, if you're just listening out for the "chord" in the recording you're transcribing, all you'll hear is the "A C E" part on the guitar or piano. Without the context of the bass note underneath though, you'll be none the wiser to what the chord actually is.

In your examples though you are not necessarily changing the chord because the order of the notes is different. An A minor chord with a C in the bass is just an A minor chord in first inversion, not really a C6, and should probably be written Amin/C.

Similarly, Amin with an F in the bass is just Amin/F not necessarly Fmaj7. This might sound pedantic, but it doesn't make musical sense to leap around into different keys just because the notes happen to fit with a particular chord.

So, while if you listen to a chord in isolation it may be possible to say it is one particular chord, but actually it will be the context of the surrounding harmony that indicates which chord it really is.

[timbob]

tank slapper said:

timbob said:

For example, let's take a basic A C E triad in the right hand of the piano, and go through some options:

Get a bass player to play an A underneath it, and we have a bog standard, boring A minor chord.

If the bass player plays a C on his bass, we're looking at a C6 chord (old fashioned 1920s theatre organ chord!)

If the bass player played an F, we'd notate it as an Fmaj7 chord.

He could play an F#, and we'd have an F# half diminished chord.

He could play a D, and we'd write the chord as D9 (or Dm9 - there's no third, so we'd be unsure and use our ear to decide the major/minor tonality)

As you can see, if you're just listening out for the "chord" in the recording you're transcribing, all you'll hear is the "A C E" part on the guitar or piano. Without the context of the bass note underneath though, you'll be none the wiser to what the chord actually is.

In your examples though you are not necessarily changing the chord because the order of the notes is different. An A minor chord with a C in the bass is just an A minor chord in first inversion, not really a C6, and should probably be written Amin/C.

Similarly, Amin with an F in the bass is just Amin/F not necessarly Fmaj7. This might sound pedantic, but it doesn't make musical sense to leap around into different keys just because the notes happen to fit with a particular chord.

So, while if you listen to a chord in isolation it may be possible to say it is one particular chord, but actually it will be the context of the surrounding harmony that indicates which chord it really is.

Exactly - but there's no hard and fast rules, I was using various abstracted chords to illustrate the point that the key to everything is in the bass note.

I'm not really talking "bass note" as in the bottom note of the piano voicing either, but rather the note played on a separate bass instrument, probably a good octave or two away from the pitch of the triad on the piano. I think if we're talking mainly jazz and modern music, talking pure inversions of triads is pretty much redundant!

In that instance, playing ACE, with a big loud C on the bass (as opposed to in the bass!) *sounds* majory. Totally agreed that the correct answer depends entirely on the context though.

Playing ACE with an F on the bass is nothing but an Fmaj7 chord, I'm not a great pianist by any stretch of the imagination, but when playing jazz (comping the changes), I will nearly never play any roots in my right hand voicing. That's pretty standard among jazzers, so ACE over an F on the bass is as close to a "pure" Fmaj7 chord as you can get.

I fully agree though with your last point though, it's all in the ears and context of the surrounding chords.