Discussion
So there's been quite a lot of discussion about the loudness war and it's impact on the quality/listenability of music. Metallica's Death Magnetic probably was responsible for bringing the issues to a wider audience most recently. The problem has been abley described and graphically demonstrated by others far more qualified than me but what can be done?
3 albums I've recently brought have highlighted the problem to me and leads to me to ask what other albums/songs have people brought recently and found the listening experience a real disappointment. For me the KOL Only By The Night was a real disappointment with a squeezed dynamic range rendering tracks like Sex On Fire a 3 minute mono volume level experience. Contrast that with Elbows Seldom Seen Kid which has, you know, both kinds of "volume" i.e. soft and loud; the same can be said of Portico Quartet's Knee Deep in the North Sea which also exhibits genuine dynamic range.
There was an article in SoS recently about Elbow's album and there was mention in there of an initiative to stop the war and stage a return to the old notion of proper dynamics in music.
Is it simply that everyone listens to highly compressed MP3 through ear bud headphones or docking stations and it simply doesn't matter any more?
3 albums I've recently brought have highlighted the problem to me and leads to me to ask what other albums/songs have people brought recently and found the listening experience a real disappointment. For me the KOL Only By The Night was a real disappointment with a squeezed dynamic range rendering tracks like Sex On Fire a 3 minute mono volume level experience. Contrast that with Elbows Seldom Seen Kid which has, you know, both kinds of "volume" i.e. soft and loud; the same can be said of Portico Quartet's Knee Deep in the North Sea which also exhibits genuine dynamic range.
There was an article in SoS recently about Elbow's album and there was mention in there of an initiative to stop the war and stage a return to the old notion of proper dynamics in music.
Is it simply that everyone listens to highly compressed MP3 through ear bud headphones or docking stations and it simply doesn't matter any more?
I think most people (including myself these days) listen to music on the crappy earbuds, in the car, or on poor quality Hifi stuff, and aren't really bothered or don't notice. Mp3/WMA etc isn't great for quality anyway, So perhaps as you suggest, it doesn't matter anymore???? Except to others like yourself, and artists/producers.
I think there is an optimum though, dependent on genre, and some albums over step the threshold. I haven't heard Death Magnetic, but the last CD i bought which in my opinion had all the life squeezed out of it by over zealous compression was Black holes and Revelations by Muse. Listening to a lot of obscure electronic stuff as well as black metal and some world music at the moment, I am accepting of bad production, or extreme/minimal use of effects and compression, and think it can sometimes even add to a recording rather than detract from it.
White-Noise said:
Sorry I missed this, what is the loudness war?
It's the assumption by record companies that louder = better and this leads to over zealous compression, sample clipping (which you hear as distortion), an abscence of dynamics i.e. the quiet bits are as loud as the loud bits and almost always makes the music tiring to listen to... It's been going on for ages but reached a bit of a peak when Metallica released Death Magnetic and a number of people complained, quite loudly, about the almost continual distortion and lack of dynamics. It was then further compounded by the fact that blame was being passed around and that the mix for the guitar hero game did not exhibit the problem to the same degree.
The best explanation and demonstration of the problem is http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
Edited by GnuBee on Wednesday 26th November 13:31
Without getting into my huge rant about Popular music being geared to make money rather than make good music, pop music is about making money.
As a lifetime music student and songwriter I despair for the state of our current Popular music trend which rewards tedious, stagnant music and marginalises anything that is different, challening or too 'creative'.
When you're telling people what to buy with shows like X-factor et al its very easy to tell them that louder = better. They don't do any thinking of their own in relation to music, so they'll just swallow whatever the ad-men throw at them.
I noticed it recently on my friends album which had been oddly, almost incorrectly, mastered. The music was really going for it, really pushing for energy and drive and life, but it had all been mastered out, all been clipped and reduced and compressed, presumably to sound good in your car. I have to assume that it was mastered on 45p headphones that came with the engineers karoake machine.
Damn I'm uptight about this type of thing!
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree with them...
As a lifetime music student and songwriter I despair for the state of our current Popular music trend which rewards tedious, stagnant music and marginalises anything that is different, challening or too 'creative'.
When you're telling people what to buy with shows like X-factor et al its very easy to tell them that louder = better. They don't do any thinking of their own in relation to music, so they'll just swallow whatever the ad-men throw at them.
I noticed it recently on my friends album which had been oddly, almost incorrectly, mastered. The music was really going for it, really pushing for energy and drive and life, but it had all been mastered out, all been clipped and reduced and compressed, presumably to sound good in your car. I have to assume that it was mastered on 45p headphones that came with the engineers karoake machine.
Damn I'm uptight about this type of thing!
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree with them...
I share your frustration - of course there's another issue at work here as well and that is who is really behind the decision; if it's the artists choice i.e. they are after a certain sound/feel as a conscious creative decision then that's fine by me if, however, this is a cynical marketing issue which is what I suspect in the majority of cases then one would hope for some kind of backlash from the artists themselves.
As much as I would love to agree with you, if the marketing men net the band in question more mullah then are they going to argue? I love the idea of a band with principles, but does anyone stick to their principles unflininchigly at that level?
I thought we'd all learned long ago that loud = bad, a range of loudness = good. Music nowadays is far too obvious for my liking, especially in the mainstream.
I thought we'd all learned long ago that loud = bad, a range of loudness = good. Music nowadays is far too obvious for my liking, especially in the mainstream.
Nakedninja, I agree with you 110% actually.
It's a sad state of affairs when we have all this amazing technology capable of incredible quality results, yet it's all pissed away at the mastering stage in favour of loudness.
Im of the opinion that a lot of mastering engineers are absolutely full of sh!t, and many of them just don't know what they are doing. And even those that do know what they are doing, still make an awful job of it regardless.
I was reading an article about mastering engineers recently, where many were quizzed and interviewed. They all said "Oh we just use that box there to remove a db or so of range, and that box there to remove another couple of db's here.. " when evidently its a lie, and they are smashing far more out of the dynamic range than that.
The other problem is.. Even the mastering engineers that do know what they are doing, have to essentially do as they are told by the record companies. They are paying the ME's to do a job, and if they say "Make it louder" then by & large, the ME's are obligated to do so. If they didn't, then they likely won't get any more work. Chicken and egg..
I bought an electronic compilation album recently (Now binned, and i forgot the name of it). It was a popular album, but had been terribly mastered. Evidently the mastering engineer was lazy, and just applied the same bad settings to every track on the album. The compression timing was horrendous.. It worked ok'ish for 1 track, but not for the other dozen or so.
But then ridiculous as it may seem, some sound engineers are nigh on deaf. Strange, but true..
I used to do some mastering myself some years ago, and I am seriously thinking about getting into it again, as I think there is a market for "anti loudness war" mastering. The only hold up for me is the initial investment cost of the new gear needed and if i'd ever recoup the cost of it!
P,
It's a sad state of affairs when we have all this amazing technology capable of incredible quality results, yet it's all pissed away at the mastering stage in favour of loudness.
Im of the opinion that a lot of mastering engineers are absolutely full of sh!t, and many of them just don't know what they are doing. And even those that do know what they are doing, still make an awful job of it regardless.
I was reading an article about mastering engineers recently, where many were quizzed and interviewed. They all said "Oh we just use that box there to remove a db or so of range, and that box there to remove another couple of db's here.. " when evidently its a lie, and they are smashing far more out of the dynamic range than that.
The other problem is.. Even the mastering engineers that do know what they are doing, have to essentially do as they are told by the record companies. They are paying the ME's to do a job, and if they say "Make it louder" then by & large, the ME's are obligated to do so. If they didn't, then they likely won't get any more work. Chicken and egg..
I bought an electronic compilation album recently (Now binned, and i forgot the name of it). It was a popular album, but had been terribly mastered. Evidently the mastering engineer was lazy, and just applied the same bad settings to every track on the album. The compression timing was horrendous.. It worked ok'ish for 1 track, but not for the other dozen or so.
But then ridiculous as it may seem, some sound engineers are nigh on deaf. Strange, but true..
I used to do some mastering myself some years ago, and I am seriously thinking about getting into it again, as I think there is a market for "anti loudness war" mastering. The only hold up for me is the initial investment cost of the new gear needed and if i'd ever recoup the cost of it!
P,
Edited by PJR on Wednesday 26th November 16:38
Somebody agrees with me! Take me now, God, I'm ready!
Seriously though it is a crying shame. I was going to bring live music into the equation but we'll stay away from that for a second, because studio music is not without potential at all, its just woefully underused.
Artists and bands whine about creative control and then let their music go off to a mastering suite for whatever the engineer feels like on the day. Maybe its even the work experience kid?!
When my album goes for mastering I'll be sat right there with the tech if at all humanly possible and if its not bang on it'll be going right back until he gets it right. I can't even conceive of putting the work in to write, arrange, practice, record and then edit, overdub etc. an album, to let it be mastered poorly.
I'm going to stop now, I've kinda lost where I was going and its just ranting.
[cockney] Does my nut in![/cockney]
Seriously though it is a crying shame. I was going to bring live music into the equation but we'll stay away from that for a second, because studio music is not without potential at all, its just woefully underused.
Artists and bands whine about creative control and then let their music go off to a mastering suite for whatever the engineer feels like on the day. Maybe its even the work experience kid?!
When my album goes for mastering I'll be sat right there with the tech if at all humanly possible and if its not bang on it'll be going right back until he gets it right. I can't even conceive of putting the work in to write, arrange, practice, record and then edit, overdub etc. an album, to let it be mastered poorly.
I'm going to stop now, I've kinda lost where I was going and its just ranting.
[cockney] Does my nut in![/cockney]
The tide is (finally) turning. Bob Ludwig speaks out - someone had to:
http://www.gatewaymastering.com/gateway_LoudnessWa...
And regardless of the songs (or Axl being a cock-end), Chinese Democracy sounds fantastic. It just does. -14 RMS which is unheard of in todays climate
Hopefully Ted Jensen will go back and re-do that frigging Metallica record. I couldn't even make it through the 1st track. Awful
http://www.gatewaymastering.com/gateway_LoudnessWa...
And regardless of the songs (or Axl being a cock-end), Chinese Democracy sounds fantastic. It just does. -14 RMS which is unheard of in todays climate
Hopefully Ted Jensen will go back and re-do that frigging Metallica record. I couldn't even make it through the 1st track. Awful
Evil Jack said:
The tide is (finally) turning. Bob Ludwig speaks out - someone had to:
http://www.gatewaymastering.com/gateway_LoudnessWa...
And regardless of the songs (or Axl being a cock-end), Chinese Democracy sounds fantastic. It just does. -14 RMS which is unheard of in todays climate
Hopefully Ted Jensen will go back and re-do that frigging Metallica record. I couldn't even make it through the 1st track. Awful
Bob Ludwig is mastering an album for a colleagues band ... how the hell he managed to get Ludwig on the job I will never know.http://www.gatewaymastering.com/gateway_LoudnessWa...
And regardless of the songs (or Axl being a cock-end), Chinese Democracy sounds fantastic. It just does. -14 RMS which is unheard of in todays climate
Hopefully Ted Jensen will go back and re-do that frigging Metallica record. I couldn't even make it through the 1st track. Awful
And hearing about the sound quality of Chinese Democracy, and my previous interest in the band, I'll have to check it out.
But the loudnes war has been going on in varying degrees for years, and its been a crying shame. But then look at the way music is sold - uber hype, pop idol, X-Factor, all ultimately having little to do with out and out talent, purely being a way to bring massive wads of cash into Simon Cowells pockets.
GnuBee said:
It's been going on for ages but reached a bit of a peak when Metallica released Death Magnetic and a number of people complained, quite loudly, about the almost continual distortion and lack of dynamics. It was then further compounded by the fact that blame was being passed around and that the mix for the guitar hero game did not exhibit the problem to the same degree.
I bought the album and was very disappointed with the sound quality. However 'my brother in law' downloaded the Guitar Hero version off a torrent site and the difference in quality is very noticeable. I'd encourage everyone to get the GH version
Having done front of house sound for many major Rock and Metal acts including members of G'n'R 
and been FOH engineer at a major Venue for 20 years. This topic has recently been discussed to death with most acts and the reality is it's more and more bands (Metalica included) actually recording and mixing the stuff themselves and then getting some dude (or should that be dud) to Master it.
It usually sounds bad because it has been recorded and mixed badly from the start. Never let a drummer mix your stuff, it will be all drums, same with bass player, it will be all bass and guitarist etc. If they all get a stab at it then it's going to get louder and louder all over and then the Mastering eng is told to make it loud for the radio.
I've just recently started dabbling in recording, though I have recorded a lot of live shows for some acts (got some crackin bootlegs to but they are for my ears only and the odd party). I usually try to mix at really low levels (I have great monitors) and take it up a bit at the mastering end to make sure it does not become tiresome on the ears. I then sample the program material over many different play back devices CD/MP3, in the car, through the telly, headphones and try and get a happy medium. Up to now it's working well for me and when I get the right gear I will fully engage Mastering as I know I have the ears for it (for now).
and been FOH engineer at a major Venue for 20 years. This topic has recently been discussed to death with most acts and the reality is it's more and more bands (Metalica included) actually recording and mixing the stuff themselves and then getting some dude (or should that be dud) to Master it.It usually sounds bad because it has been recorded and mixed badly from the start. Never let a drummer mix your stuff, it will be all drums, same with bass player, it will be all bass and guitarist etc. If they all get a stab at it then it's going to get louder and louder all over and then the Mastering eng is told to make it loud for the radio.
I've just recently started dabbling in recording, though I have recorded a lot of live shows for some acts (got some crackin bootlegs to but they are for my ears only and the odd party). I usually try to mix at really low levels (I have great monitors) and take it up a bit at the mastering end to make sure it does not become tiresome on the ears. I then sample the program material over many different play back devices CD/MP3, in the car, through the telly, headphones and try and get a happy medium. Up to now it's working well for me and when I get the right gear I will fully engage Mastering as I know I have the ears for it (for now).
Edited by V8A*ndy on Saturday 29th November 01:10
You should try recording sound for television 
Most people don't care unless something is wrong
Anyhow, if you want to listen to a truly excellently produced album, try "Seeds of Love" by Tears for Fears. Its full of ace music, but its impeccably mastered. I'd also recommend anything by The Blue Nile.
/edit: holy s
t I just discovered they released a new album a few years back! *scurries off to get a copy and consider buying*
Most people don't care unless something is wrong Anyhow, if you want to listen to a truly excellently produced album, try "Seeds of Love" by Tears for Fears. Its full of ace music, but its impeccably mastered. I'd also recommend anything by The Blue Nile.
/edit: holy s
t I just discovered they released a new album a few years back! *scurries off to get a copy and consider buying*Edited by Parrot of Doom on Monday 1st December 17:11
Parrot of Doom said:
You should try recording sound for television Most people don't care unless something is wrong
Anyhow, if you want to listen to a truly excellently produced album, try "Seeds of Love" by Tears for Fears. Its full of ace music, but its impeccably mastered. I'd also recommend anything by The Blue Nile.
/edit: holy st I just discovered they released a new album a few years back! *scurries off to get a copy and consider buying*
Seeds of Love is possibly a little overproduced? But it is an excellent combination of quality production and music. Most people don't care unless something is wrong Anyhow, if you want to listen to a truly excellently produced album, try "Seeds of Love" by Tears for Fears. Its full of ace music, but its impeccably mastered. I'd also recommend anything by The Blue Nile.
/edit: holy s
t I just discovered they released a new album a few years back! *scurries off to get a copy and consider buying*Edited by Parrot of Doom on Monday 1st December 17:11
Has anyone downloaded the 'Unmastered' version of Californication?
Amazing, not best quality but boy do you get the urge to turn it up.
Exactly how it should have been on the CD i bought when it first came out thats been listened to literally several times, the 192k unmastered mp3 is on it's 3rd loop today.
Amazing, not best quality but boy do you get the urge to turn it up.
Exactly how it should have been on the CD i bought when it first came out thats been listened to literally several times, the 192k unmastered mp3 is on it's 3rd loop today.
The_Burg said:
Has anyone downloaded the 'Unmastered' version of Californication?
Amazing, not best quality but boy do you get the urge to turn it up.
Exactly how it should have been on the CD i bought when it first came out thats been listened to literally several times, the 192k unmastered mp3 is on it's 3rd loop today.
I will have to check that out thanks for heads up on that. But yes I love it when a song comes on and your compelled to turn it up because it sounds so good and dynamic. Probably why all the 80's pop/rock sounds so good.Amazing, not best quality but boy do you get the urge to turn it up.
Exactly how it should have been on the CD i bought when it first came out thats been listened to literally several times, the 192k unmastered mp3 is on it's 3rd loop today.
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