If you had a restaurant or bistro...
Discussion
...what would be on the menu and why?
Reason I ask is I am going to be made redundant in Feb 2011. I've always been into food and over the past 10 years I have been more and more involved in catering to the point where I went back to college and did 3 years NVQ 2 & 3 Professional Cookery. I'm now comfortable with an informal wedding reception for 200 people or a 9 course fine dining experience for 50. I can cook pretty much anything if I've got a spec. to follow.
My aspiration is to buy a going concern early next year, something in the high street serving the public. Don't care what it is as long as it's the right location. I've got 20+ years serious business management and development behind me so I know my accounts and marketing it's more "what to do"? But whatever it is it will have B2B and private event catering on top.
So, if you could build your perfect venue for breakfast, lunch and dinner what would it be?
Reason I ask is I am going to be made redundant in Feb 2011. I've always been into food and over the past 10 years I have been more and more involved in catering to the point where I went back to college and did 3 years NVQ 2 & 3 Professional Cookery. I'm now comfortable with an informal wedding reception for 200 people or a 9 course fine dining experience for 50. I can cook pretty much anything if I've got a spec. to follow.
My aspiration is to buy a going concern early next year, something in the high street serving the public. Don't care what it is as long as it's the right location. I've got 20+ years serious business management and development behind me so I know my accounts and marketing it's more "what to do"? But whatever it is it will have B2B and private event catering on top.
So, if you could build your perfect venue for breakfast, lunch and dinner what would it be?
If I was opening a restaurant it would be mine to decide the menu. You need to have a passion to do it yourself, cooking is a creative art not just "I can cook pretty much anything if I've got a spec. to follow" if you just want to cook, go work for someone else. Just buying a place in any style won't work if you don't have an interest in cooking in that style every day.
I'd go modern British fwiw, quality local and seasonal ingredients where possible. Maybe a grill element (steak/burgers but really good hand made ones).
I'd go modern British fwiw, quality local and seasonal ingredients where possible. Maybe a grill element (steak/burgers but really good hand made ones).
I've always thought about this, in a day dreaming never going to happen kind of way.
I'd probably go with a Spanish/Tapas style bar kind of place:
1 beer on tap (keep costs down), couple of different Spanish wines. Standard olives, patasas bravas, chorizo, calamari, salt cod, croquettas, serrano, gambas, russian salad, tortilla. maybe even paella.
As opposed to all this fancy nancy stuff that requires a shed load of investment for the vacuum cookers, blast-chillers, etc.
The only problem being is finding a place with a market for it, obviously I'd love to open something like this in the local highstreet but I just can't see it being busy at all. Obviously London would be an obvious target, but a huge amount of already established competition and mega£££ rent is a definite issue.
It's a shame the youth of today wont go and sit in a bar like the above and have a nice bit of food/drink with their mates, instead of getting blotted on fosters in Wetherspoons.
I'd probably go with a Spanish/Tapas style bar kind of place:
1 beer on tap (keep costs down), couple of different Spanish wines. Standard olives, patasas bravas, chorizo, calamari, salt cod, croquettas, serrano, gambas, russian salad, tortilla. maybe even paella.
As opposed to all this fancy nancy stuff that requires a shed load of investment for the vacuum cookers, blast-chillers, etc.
The only problem being is finding a place with a market for it, obviously I'd love to open something like this in the local highstreet but I just can't see it being busy at all. Obviously London would be an obvious target, but a huge amount of already established competition and mega£££ rent is a definite issue.
It's a shame the youth of today wont go and sit in a bar like the above and have a nice bit of food/drink with their mates, instead of getting blotted on fosters in Wetherspoons.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think it's actually more than half, certainly 60+ % in the first two years so I appreciate it's not an easy market."In home" dining is certainly an option and I do a small amount of this already plus a few B2B jobs, doing 50+ for a Gala dinner this Thursday.
As you say, doing a proper gastro is sodding expensive and that is my real passion but it needs to be supported by something day-to-day p[en to the public.
Personally I'd just have a fire pit, 3 meats grilled to order with salad and jacket pots. Works well in the south of France at 30 euro a head for dinner with free house wine.
Lardydah said:
I've always thought about this, in a day dreaming never going to happen kind of way.
I'd probably go with a Spanish/Tapas style bar kind of place:
1 beer on tap (keep costs down), couple of different Spanish wines. Standard olives, patasas bravas, chorizo, calamari, salt cod, croquettas, serrano, gambas, russian salad, tortilla. maybe even paella.
As opposed to all this fancy nancy stuff that requires a shed load of investment for the vacuum cookers, blast-chillers, etc.
The only problem being is finding a place with a market for it, obviously I'd love to open something like this in the local highstreet but I just can't see it being busy at all. Obviously London would be an obvious target, but a huge amount of already established competition and mega£££ rent is a definite issue.
It's a shame the youth of today wont go and sit in a bar like the above and have a nice bit of food/drink with their mates, instead of getting blotted on fosters in Wetherspoons.
Completely agree 100%. Unfortunately I don't think the UK is ready for this other than in major cities. It was tried down here (South Devon) and it failed miserably.I'd probably go with a Spanish/Tapas style bar kind of place:
1 beer on tap (keep costs down), couple of different Spanish wines. Standard olives, patasas bravas, chorizo, calamari, salt cod, croquettas, serrano, gambas, russian salad, tortilla. maybe even paella.
As opposed to all this fancy nancy stuff that requires a shed load of investment for the vacuum cookers, blast-chillers, etc.
The only problem being is finding a place with a market for it, obviously I'd love to open something like this in the local highstreet but I just can't see it being busy at all. Obviously London would be an obvious target, but a huge amount of already established competition and mega£££ rent is a definite issue.
It's a shame the youth of today wont go and sit in a bar like the above and have a nice bit of food/drink with their mates, instead of getting blotted on fosters in Wetherspoons.
Maybe something less specific would work. All ideas are good.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
;-)Goats cheese, what one? Got 3 in the fridge ranging from Brakes "log" at £7 a kilo to local stuff which I don;t really look at as I hate the stuff... tastes of goat to me.
Lamb... mmm... off the shelf leg or a seamed and reformed shoulder with protein gel mint and spinach replacing the sinews so it forms a "pink and green log"
Do you want after dinner mints from http://www.paulwaynegregory.com/ (spent a day with him learning to temper chocolate) if so then your £500 budget just went out the window!
I know what you are saying and I know how silly it can get in terms of suppliers and food. The market down here in South Devon would not cope with me doing things 100%
ie. raspberry tart... blind bake puff pastry so it doesn't rise to form the shell then trim. Pack solid dried raspberry pieces in a clarified coulis with a dash of pectin etc etc etc
We have 1 and 2 star places and they do okay but I am looking to make money from this not massage my ego. I know I can cook, I don't need public adulation.
I'm just interested to know what people prefer. Went to a local place recently and paid over £150 for dinner for 2 adults and 2 kids. It was appalling and I did complain but got no real response so won't be going back.
Had dinner at a nice chain bistro in Marlborough a few months back after a track day, same sort of money but really felt like it was worth it.
/For the record, if you want me plus staff for 6 pax it's more than £500. I used to charge £75 an hour for consultancy 10 years ago.
princeperch said:
21TonyK said:
My aspiration is to buy a going concern early next year,?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Right on que eh...
ttiest places are busy and make money. I'm not looking to cater to that market though. I want something the locals can rely on for decent food boosted by summer trade. Knowing John Burton-Race is pulling out I gave serious consideration to the place next door to him as it's walking distance from home but I really don't wan't to be catering to the "yachty brigade". I'd rather do something a lot more down to earth, not cheap but good. Thinking local produce, fish, bread and pasta made fresh each day, steaks from local farms. Endless grill at £30 a head with free wine, kids at £10.
If you were a family of 4 would you happily pay £80 for dinner including free wine (others available at extra cost!)
Tappas and desserts also at additional cost? £4-£7 mark?
Burton Race is walking away, and you want to open one next door? I presume he is relatively expensive and the recession is biting hard in that price range.
People do eat out in a recession, as it can be cheaper than many other 'treats' at a time when money is short. But I'd be looking at a pizzeria. Cheap ingredients, low prices, acceptable to the kids, not too hard to get a chef who can do it. What would be the competition like in that price range?
People do eat out in a recession, as it can be cheaper than many other 'treats' at a time when money is short. But I'd be looking at a pizzeria. Cheap ingredients, low prices, acceptable to the kids, not too hard to get a chef who can do it. What would be the competition like in that price range?
grumbledoak said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
He is arrogant, but gifted, and has been on TV repeatedly, so I presume he had more chance of drawing the custom than most. I would try to find out why he is leaving.I certainly wouldn't want to be opening something similar any time soon.
He's actually quite a nice guy but has very directed views on how things should be which maybe don't quite match with his main market.
IMHO a mistake down here, "face doesn't fit etc"
For a decent sit in restaurant, you've got a very hard task, for sure. I use Stamford in south Lincs as a barometer.
Over the years, there have been some superb restaurants open up in the town...and close, sadly.
One restaurant in particular, is held up as sign of success...problem is though its had more owners than I can think of in the past 10 yrs, or so. Only the name has remained the same.
For those who know the town , there was a great little restaurant . just off Red Lion square , called the Oak house. It was first class....it was never full though. Good as it was. Apparently, the rent was spectacular, and it was that , that caused closure in the end.
The places that seem to endure, tend to have a theme, and cater for the younger set, with quick rotation simplistic "fashionable" food. The higher quality food, being catered for by the Hotels, which have a range of income streams.
I never got to the serious study stage, as a business venture...just too dangerous. Basically, a mobile junk food van has far more chance of success, from what I've seen.
Over the years, there have been some superb restaurants open up in the town...and close, sadly.
One restaurant in particular, is held up as sign of success...problem is though its had more owners than I can think of in the past 10 yrs, or so. Only the name has remained the same.
For those who know the town , there was a great little restaurant . just off Red Lion square , called the Oak house. It was first class....it was never full though. Good as it was. Apparently, the rent was spectacular, and it was that , that caused closure in the end.
The places that seem to endure, tend to have a theme, and cater for the younger set, with quick rotation simplistic "fashionable" food. The higher quality food, being catered for by the Hotels, which have a range of income streams.
I never got to the serious study stage, as a business venture...just too dangerous. Basically, a mobile junk food van has far more chance of success, from what I've seen.
A steak house! Somewhere nicely done out with a choice of cuts as well as some alternatives. I would be concentrating on fresh, quality ingredients and keeping it simple.
I find its hard to go out and eat straight forward tasty food. Most places seem to try to be something they're not/cant be by complicating the menu with 'jus' this and 'bed of' that. There's a pub about 8 miles from me in the sticks that literally has a steakhouse menu and it is what it is and is always heaving. There is no where in town that does it though! Everyone else has laced the mushrooms with red onion, fked the chips up by cutting them like door stops, and only offer a ribeye (lazy choice as its so easy to cook) or fillet. And its all really expensive. Grrrr.
As a side note, they opened a Loch Fyne (fish restaurant chain) here about 2 years ago. Before opening they started renovation works on the building and advertised the fact that there was a new fish restaurant opening soon. There isnt anywhere else like this in the immediate vacinity (prob cos we're 100 miles inland) and the place is busy lunch and tea.
I find its hard to go out and eat straight forward tasty food. Most places seem to try to be something they're not/cant be by complicating the menu with 'jus' this and 'bed of' that. There's a pub about 8 miles from me in the sticks that literally has a steakhouse menu and it is what it is and is always heaving. There is no where in town that does it though! Everyone else has laced the mushrooms with red onion, f
ked the chips up by cutting them like door stops, and only offer a ribeye (lazy choice as its so easy to cook) or fillet. And its all really expensive. Grrrr.As a side note, they opened a Loch Fyne (fish restaurant chain) here about 2 years ago. Before opening they started renovation works on the building and advertised the fact that there was a new fish restaurant opening soon. There isnt anywhere else like this in the immediate vacinity (prob cos we're 100 miles inland) and the place is busy lunch and tea.
Brazilian churrascaria would be good. Getting big in the US over the past few years and a few popping up here. If you can keep the place busy its a great concept. Been here a couple of times: http://www.fogodechao.com
Personally, my wife is an awesome cook so, we as a family often find restaurants disappointing and poor value for money. I don't like stuffy, poncey restaurants, but I love good food. I don't great have luck finding good value quality food very often - I would love to try places that have reasonably priced main courses made from cheaper cuts - I love Skirt Steak, Liver, Beef Ribs, Pie etc. and a <£10 main course/ £15 2-3 course type restaurant, I think will always do well if the food is good. I was in the US recently and somewhere I ate lunch had a small skirt steak (cooked to my order), fries, a few leaves of rocket and aioli for $6.95. It was fantastic- great food and great value for money.
Personally, my wife is an awesome cook so, we as a family often find restaurants disappointing and poor value for money. I don't like stuffy, poncey restaurants, but I love good food. I don't great have luck finding good value quality food very often - I would love to try places that have reasonably priced main courses made from cheaper cuts - I love Skirt Steak, Liver, Beef Ribs, Pie etc. and a <£10 main course/ £15 2-3 course type restaurant, I think will always do well if the food is good. I was in the US recently and somewhere I ate lunch had a small skirt steak (cooked to my order), fries, a few leaves of rocket and aioli for $6.95. It was fantastic- great food and great value for money.
If you want to see how restaurants work, come to Brighton. The biggest 'Italian' ones are all owned by Iranians and they make a lot of money. They also do some clever things as well, such as sell produce side by side, have a smaller cafe style menu and some sexy cakes. Bill's in Brighton is another interesting business model. The place is packed, and I mean packed every single day and a lunch meal will set you back a tenner. Come and have a look around if you want to see busy and popular and not just 'touristie'. You'll get some great ideas
I nothing of the restaurant trade but I am a greedy bd!
For a breakfast menu I like to see yoghurt, honey, fruit, kippers, smoked salmon, scrambled eggs, bacon, black pudding. Croissant. Glass of red wine. Fresh coffee. Selection of tea. Small/light portions, I dont want to be shaking off a 'food coma' all morning.
NO...fried bread, no hash browns, no sausages, no fried eggs, no mountains of cold soggy toast. No greasy mushrooms.
Lunch, lighter meals again, lots of seafood and fish, cold meats and salads, omlettes, a good croque monsieur.
Evenings, varied, must have 2 fish choices, fillet steak, a pasta dish or 2, our local Italian does a tagliatelli with smoked salmon and cream sauce that is to die for.
Aside from the menu I do not want the following
ste music.
Paper napkins.
Worn out plates.
Smeared glasses.
Three quid a bottle mineral water in a plastic bottle on the table, I want a jug of ice cold water, with some ice cubes and a slice of lemon, tap water is fine and I want it free.
Morose staff.
Gin and tonic in a warm glass drowned in melted ice as the tonic was warm. That annoys me.
I dont want the those bloody gold foil wrapped piss arse st pot tiny blobs of butter melted on the edge of the plate. I want a ramekin of firm, good quality, lightly salted butter.
I do not want these portions of jam and marmalade with the bloody kevlar fecking unremovable bloody foil covers.
Not those bloody floor sweepings Twinnings tea bags!
Brown sugar for coffee (sorry, in the wrong list, I do want this)
Port - I'll try not to rant to much about port, if I want a glass of port after dinner with my cheese, the chances are by this time I'm quite pissed and wont be much able to know if its any good. but I want a fecking great big large one! I'll be really fed up if you bring me one of those st pot tiny little half egg cup thimble size taster glasses.
I want apple and celery with my cheese.
I want Sel Marin on the table.
I want a pepper mill on the table.
If I see a Heinz tartare sauce sachet I might grab your cooking knife and kill someone. I want proper tartare sauce, made fresh, in the restaurant, that day, withv proper big juicey capers.
How's that?
d!For a breakfast menu I like to see yoghurt, honey, fruit, kippers, smoked salmon, scrambled eggs, bacon, black pudding. Croissant. Glass of red wine. Fresh coffee. Selection of tea. Small/light portions, I dont want to be shaking off a 'food coma' all morning.
NO...fried bread, no hash browns, no sausages, no fried eggs, no mountains of cold soggy toast. No greasy mushrooms.
Lunch, lighter meals again, lots of seafood and fish, cold meats and salads, omlettes, a good croque monsieur.
Evenings, varied, must have 2 fish choices, fillet steak, a pasta dish or 2, our local Italian does a tagliatelli with smoked salmon and cream sauce that is to die for.
Aside from the menu I do not want the following
s
te music.Paper napkins.
Worn out plates.
Smeared glasses.
Three quid a bottle mineral water in a plastic bottle on the table, I want a jug of ice cold water, with some ice cubes and a slice of lemon, tap water is fine and I want it free.
Morose staff.
Gin and tonic in a warm glass drowned in melted ice as the tonic was warm. That annoys me.
I dont want the those bloody gold foil wrapped piss arse s
t pot tiny blobs of butter melted on the edge of the plate. I want a ramekin of firm, good quality, lightly salted butter.I do not want these portions of jam and marmalade with the bloody kevlar fecking unremovable bloody foil covers.
Not those bloody floor sweepings Twinnings tea bags!
Brown sugar for coffee (sorry, in the wrong list, I do want this)
Port - I'll try not to rant to much about port, if I want a glass of port after dinner with my cheese, the chances are by this time I'm quite pissed and wont be much able to know if its any good. but I want a fecking great big large one! I'll be really fed up if you bring me one of those s
t pot tiny little half egg cup thimble size taster glasses.I want apple and celery with my cheese.
I want Sel Marin on the table.
I want a pepper mill on the table.
If I see a Heinz tartare sauce sachet I might grab your cooking knife and kill someone. I want proper tartare sauce, made fresh, in the restaurant, that day, withv proper big juicey capers.
How's that?
Edited by Huntsman on Wednesday 28th July 08:26
Huntsman said:
Aside from the menu I do not want the following
ste music.
Paper napkins.
Worn out plates.
Smeared glasses.
Three quid a bottle mineral water in a plastic bottle on the table, I want a jug of ice cold water, with some ice cubes and a slice of lemon, tap water is fine and I want it free.
Morose staff.
Gin and tonic in a warm glass drowned in melted ice as the tonic was warm. That annoys me.
I dont want the those bloody gold foil wrapped piss arse st pot tiny blobs of butter melted on the edge of the plate. I want a ramekin of firm, good quality, lightly salted butter.
I do not want these portions of jam and marmalade with the bloody kevlar fecking unremovable bloody foil covers.
Not those bloody floor sweepings Twinnings tea bags!
Brown sugar for coffee (sorry, in the wrong list, I do want this)
Port - I'll try not to rant to much about port, if I want a glass of port after dinner with my cheese, the chances are by this time I'm quite pissed and wont be much able to know if its any good. but I want a fecking great big large one! I'll be really fed up if you bring me one of those st pot tiny little half egg cup thimble size taster glasses.
I want apple and celery with my cheese.
I want Sel Marin on the table.
I want a pepper mill on the table.
If I see a Heinz tartare sauce sachet I might grab your cooking knife and kill someone. I want proper tartare sauce, made fresh, in the restaurant, that day, withv proper big juicey capers.
How's that?
I think this sums up what I want/don't want in a restaurant quite nicely. I see a lot of places, especially up here in the Dales where the food is great, but the atmosphere is non-existent. it's not just about the food.s
te music.Paper napkins.
Worn out plates.
Smeared glasses.
Three quid a bottle mineral water in a plastic bottle on the table, I want a jug of ice cold water, with some ice cubes and a slice of lemon, tap water is fine and I want it free.
Morose staff.
Gin and tonic in a warm glass drowned in melted ice as the tonic was warm. That annoys me.
I dont want the those bloody gold foil wrapped piss arse s
t pot tiny blobs of butter melted on the edge of the plate. I want a ramekin of firm, good quality, lightly salted butter.I do not want these portions of jam and marmalade with the bloody kevlar fecking unremovable bloody foil covers.
Not those bloody floor sweepings Twinnings tea bags!
Brown sugar for coffee (sorry, in the wrong list, I do want this)
Port - I'll try not to rant to much about port, if I want a glass of port after dinner with my cheese, the chances are by this time I'm quite pissed and wont be much able to know if its any good. but I want a fecking great big large one! I'll be really fed up if you bring me one of those s
t pot tiny little half egg cup thimble size taster glasses.I want apple and celery with my cheese.
I want Sel Marin on the table.
I want a pepper mill on the table.
If I see a Heinz tartare sauce sachet I might grab your cooking knife and kill someone. I want proper tartare sauce, made fresh, in the restaurant, that day, withv proper big juicey capers.
How's that?
To that list I'd add;
Staff that at least know what the menu consists of, if not tastes like.
A simple menu, well laid out, and not in one of those generic plastic 'books'.
Extra points if the menu looks like it changes regularly or there's a large specials board (to show that the menu changes with what's available).
Don't sit me too close to other people, I don't want to have my food knocked out of my hands every time the woman on the next table gets up to powder her nose.
Oh, and plenty of decent quality biscuits with the cheese board, not 3 cream crackers and a soggy oatcake.
Edited by Mark Benson on Wednesday 28th July 08:49
For your first restaurant, I'd forget foreign themes such as Brazilian, Spanish or French.
Cook, simple food such as steaks, etc but use really good, local ingredients and cook them well.
Offer good wine and home-made desserts/starters but stick to the mantra of keeping it simple.
An excellent restaurant I went to recently offered 3 starters, main courses from the grill and 3 desserts. It was rammed.
If your cooking is good and the produce quality, people will come.
Don't try and be Heston Blumenthal until you have something successful going, then you can move upmarket.
Cook, simple food such as steaks, etc but use really good, local ingredients and cook them well.
Offer good wine and home-made desserts/starters but stick to the mantra of keeping it simple.
An excellent restaurant I went to recently offered 3 starters, main courses from the grill and 3 desserts. It was rammed.
If your cooking is good and the produce quality, people will come.
Don't try and be Heston Blumenthal until you have something successful going, then you can move upmarket.
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