How we eat now
Discussion
Perhaps this is more suited to np&e, but I'm not allowed to post in there. I'm also more interested in the food side of this than the politics, though the two come as a package.
I've started listening to the food programme podcast from the bbc, and very often the problem of not being able to afford 'proper' or fresh food comes up, alarmingly so.
We were pretty poor when i was a kid, my mum didn't have a job as such, she was raising me and my brothers and sister, and did some child minding, my dad worked full time. I remember my mum always baking bread, and all our meals were cooked from scratch. She always maintains we couldn't afford emerging ready meals at the time. I suppose my point here is she did have more time than many these days.
I am no saint, but try (and fail) to follow in her footsteps, however, we do end up eating ultra processed food one way or another on a daily basis (cereal i learned falls into this, however, I've eaten breakfast cereal as long as i can remember.) We will eat a frozen pizza once a week, have pasta with a bought sauce/pesto for lunches etc. However, i always try and scratch cook our evening meal, a compromise I can accept in the modern world.
Most of us these days are time poor, and i accept that spending an hour on an evening meal is a choice i have where others may not, I also do the shopping most weeks for the household, so am aware of the rising prices and compromises necessary to balance the weekly budget. I'm not poor, but we are far from well off.
Though very cheap, very convenient food is an option in the shops, a spagbol for example is a classic cheap family meal easy to have on day two on a jacket spud. A roast can be comfortably turned into two days worth of food in a similar vein.
It would appear that I am massively out of touch with how people fuel themselves these days, and how they arrive at the decisions (or not perhaps) they take regarding diet/work/life/budget/education. Obviously there are people unable to afford to eat well, i'm mindful that cooking isn't just the purchase price of the food, but the energy to cook it, much the same as there are people unable to afford to turn on the heating.
Is it really the case that cooking a meal for oneself is now a luxury many cant afford? And if so how when food generally really is so cheap?
Is it actually so much cheaper to eat poor quality food?
Initiatives to help and educate people to eat better feature quite heavily on the last few podcasts i've heard, can this rescue our diets, and do we even want to?
I've started listening to the food programme podcast from the bbc, and very often the problem of not being able to afford 'proper' or fresh food comes up, alarmingly so.
We were pretty poor when i was a kid, my mum didn't have a job as such, she was raising me and my brothers and sister, and did some child minding, my dad worked full time. I remember my mum always baking bread, and all our meals were cooked from scratch. She always maintains we couldn't afford emerging ready meals at the time. I suppose my point here is she did have more time than many these days.
I am no saint, but try (and fail) to follow in her footsteps, however, we do end up eating ultra processed food one way or another on a daily basis (cereal i learned falls into this, however, I've eaten breakfast cereal as long as i can remember.) We will eat a frozen pizza once a week, have pasta with a bought sauce/pesto for lunches etc. However, i always try and scratch cook our evening meal, a compromise I can accept in the modern world.
Most of us these days are time poor, and i accept that spending an hour on an evening meal is a choice i have where others may not, I also do the shopping most weeks for the household, so am aware of the rising prices and compromises necessary to balance the weekly budget. I'm not poor, but we are far from well off.
Though very cheap, very convenient food is an option in the shops, a spagbol for example is a classic cheap family meal easy to have on day two on a jacket spud. A roast can be comfortably turned into two days worth of food in a similar vein.
It would appear that I am massively out of touch with how people fuel themselves these days, and how they arrive at the decisions (or not perhaps) they take regarding diet/work/life/budget/education. Obviously there are people unable to afford to eat well, i'm mindful that cooking isn't just the purchase price of the food, but the energy to cook it, much the same as there are people unable to afford to turn on the heating.
Is it really the case that cooking a meal for oneself is now a luxury many cant afford? And if so how when food generally really is so cheap?
Is it actually so much cheaper to eat poor quality food?
Initiatives to help and educate people to eat better feature quite heavily on the last few podcasts i've heard, can this rescue our diets, and do we even want to?
I think the crux of it is, time. By your own admission, your mother didn't work in the modern sense, which likely (despite raising/looking after children) left her with more time each day to actually plan and cook a meal. Whereas if both parents are working a traditional 9-5, by the time they've picked the kids up, got home, and started to cook it could be easily 7-8pm, which leaves very little time for spending time with your family or relaxing, therefore whilst it might be more expensive to eat pre-prepared food financially, it opens up a chunk of time which you could argue is much more important.
With sufficient experience, I'm sure you could whip up a nutritious balanced meal every single night in very little time, however, throwing some beige food from a box into the oven is still going to be quicker and less effort.
Miss me with the Jamie Oliver 30 minute meal nonsense too, if I had a production assistant pre-measuring all of my ingredients and several hundreds of quids worth of cooking equipment (blenders, food processors, 5 different pans for one meal) then I'm sure even I could manage to pull off the same feats of culinary absurdity that he does.
With sufficient experience, I'm sure you could whip up a nutritious balanced meal every single night in very little time, however, throwing some beige food from a box into the oven is still going to be quicker and less effort.
Miss me with the Jamie Oliver 30 minute meal nonsense too, if I had a production assistant pre-measuring all of my ingredients and several hundreds of quids worth of cooking equipment (blenders, food processors, 5 different pans for one meal) then I'm sure even I could manage to pull off the same feats of culinary absurdity that he does.
I agree with that. The programme I listened to this morning for example had an initiative to give food coupons to allow people who couldn't afford to the capacity to put a fruit bowl on the table. An apple or a snack bar, the cost is broadly the same, or possibly in the apples favour price wise, so is cost the problem?
Of course, you need the time to get to the market in the first place.....
Of course, you need the time to get to the market in the first place.....
Sslink said:
I think the crux of it is, time. By your own admission, your mother didn't work in the modern sense, which likely (despite raising/looking after children) left her with more time each day to actually plan and cook a meal. Whereas if both parents are working a traditional 9-5, by the time they've picked the kids up, got home, and started to cook it could be easily 7-8pm, which leaves very little time for spending time with your family or relaxing, therefore whilst it might be more expensive to eat pre-prepared food financially, it opens up a chunk of time which you could argue is much more important.
With sufficient experience, I'm sure you could whip up a nutritious balanced meal every single night in very little time, however, throwing some beige food from a box into the oven is still going to be quicker and less effort.
Miss me with the Jamie Oliver 30 minute meal nonsense too, if I had a production assistant pre-measuring all of my ingredients and several hundreds of quids worth of cooking equipment (blenders, food processors, 5 different pans for one meal) then I'm sure even I could manage to pull off the same feats of culinary absurdity that he does.
I think the crux of the issue is that no one had even heard the term "ultra processed food" until recently coupled with the fact that the range of pre-prepared meals/food "ingredients" is now vast compared to when I was a kid and by PH standards I am not even that old! With sufficient experience, I'm sure you could whip up a nutritious balanced meal every single night in very little time, however, throwing some beige food from a box into the oven is still going to be quicker and less effort.
Miss me with the Jamie Oliver 30 minute meal nonsense too, if I had a production assistant pre-measuring all of my ingredients and several hundreds of quids worth of cooking equipment (blenders, food processors, 5 different pans for one meal) then I'm sure even I could manage to pull off the same feats of culinary absurdity that he does.
As for the JO 30 minute meals, these are 30 minute meals not 50p meals. He did do a series or two on cheap meals that were achingly simple https://www.jamieoliver.com/features/budget-friend...
JackJarvis said:
It's a combination of requiring 2 full time salaries to pay the mortgage, combined with the rise of convenience / fast foods, JustEat etc.
That isn't the case though is it? I've never ordered via just eat (currently not in the uk) but i bet if you can afford to, you can afford a bunch of bannanas, a few apples, and a couple of kiwis?I keep hearing specifically about people being unable to afford to eat fresh fruit and veg. I wonder what sort of % of the population the are talking about?
craigthecoupe said:
JackJarvis said:
It's a combination of requiring 2 full time salaries to pay the mortgage, combined with the rise of convenience / fast foods, JustEat etc.
That isn't the case though is it? I've never ordered via just eat (currently not in the uk) but i bet if you can afford to, you can afford a bunch of bannanas, a few apples, and a couple of kiwis?I keep hearing specifically about people being unable to afford to eat fresh fruit and veg. I wonder what sort of % of the population the are talking about?
Thats not to say every person crying they cant afford Fruit and Veg is time poor, some of them aren't even financially poor but rather they just lack the motivation or whatever. There is no easy fix of course, if there was, well it would be fixed!
craigthecoupe said:
JackJarvis said:
It's a combination of requiring 2 full time salaries to pay the mortgage, combined with the rise of convenience / fast foods, JustEat etc.
That isn't the case though is it? I've never ordered via just eat (currently not in the uk) but i bet if you can afford to, you can afford a bunch of bannanas, a few apples, and a couple of kiwis?I keep hearing specifically about people being unable to afford to eat fresh fruit and veg. I wonder what sort of % of the population the are talking about?
I'm quite interested in this...
I'm obviously Indian which means that i grew up in a house where my mum was able to feed as many people that turned up at our house at any given minute with some potatoes and a small aubergine.
I'd like to say that my wife is as good a cook as my mum but i'd be telling porkies. My daughter however can.. but thats not the point I'm making..
Having spent a lot of time in Spain and Germany over the last couple of years there is one thing that struck me about the food.... In my opinion, We as a nation don't care about food in the same way that they do over the channel.
This is evident in the lack of massive chain fast food type places, crap coffee shops that repeat every 50 steps, and the way that people here are happy to order and eat all manor of crap from shady takeaways.
Even nice takeaways suffer in the UK. - I quite like a pastry ( cos I'm a fatty ) and when I'm working in London i'd pop into a Paul and get an escargot - I visited a Paul in France last year, I had my usual - it blew my mind... this wasn't the same thing I was eating, not even close. Our European neighbours wont tolerate crap food at any level.
We've been consumed by convenience and meal times have died a death.
Going back to the point made above about spag bol - yes - perfect, the ingredients for a big batch of that would come in well under a fiver and it'd last a couple of days. I don't buy the "people are too busy" - people just cant be arsed.
I'm obviously Indian which means that i grew up in a house where my mum was able to feed as many people that turned up at our house at any given minute with some potatoes and a small aubergine.
I'd like to say that my wife is as good a cook as my mum but i'd be telling porkies. My daughter however can.. but thats not the point I'm making..
Having spent a lot of time in Spain and Germany over the last couple of years there is one thing that struck me about the food.... In my opinion, We as a nation don't care about food in the same way that they do over the channel.
This is evident in the lack of massive chain fast food type places, crap coffee shops that repeat every 50 steps, and the way that people here are happy to order and eat all manor of crap from shady takeaways.
Even nice takeaways suffer in the UK. - I quite like a pastry ( cos I'm a fatty ) and when I'm working in London i'd pop into a Paul and get an escargot - I visited a Paul in France last year, I had my usual - it blew my mind... this wasn't the same thing I was eating, not even close. Our European neighbours wont tolerate crap food at any level.
We've been consumed by convenience and meal times have died a death.
Going back to the point made above about spag bol - yes - perfect, the ingredients for a big batch of that would come in well under a fiver and it'd last a couple of days. I don't buy the "people are too busy" - people just cant be arsed.
It's not lack of time, at least very rarely. For starters, it doesn't take that long. And anyway if you work full time you have to make time for anything you do. What you make time for is down to your priorities.
I think most people simply can't cook anything more appetising than wallpaper paste, so they don't bother. We can blame the parents, but they can blame their own. More generally there is a lot of money in ready made and processed crap so there is generally a poor food information environment for those who don't know where to start.
Good luck to Jamies of this world trying to show people that they can actually do this.
I think most people simply can't cook anything more appetising than wallpaper paste, so they don't bother. We can blame the parents, but they can blame their own. More generally there is a lot of money in ready made and processed crap so there is generally a poor food information environment for those who don't know where to start.
Good luck to Jamies of this world trying to show people that they can actually do this.
I think being cash poor and the affordability of fresh fruit/veg must only really be hitting the poorest in society? Bottom few percent? But the point stands, if you're absolutely skint you can get 6 doughnuts at Morrisons cheaper than 6 bananas...
The bigger issue for the rest of the population will be time poor. % wise we pay more of the average salary to mortgages/rent than we ever have, so both of a couple are likely to be working. Locally, there's very little well paid jobs and people are travelling out to business parks/centres, or having to commute into cities etc which all adds time and causes stress.
My dietary requirements exclude most ready meals and frozen premade foods so much so i've not got a microwave. And despite enjoying cooking if there was an option of decent ready meals available to me I probably would opt for one from time to time. Probably as 2-3 generations back, who we like to compare todays diet with, would've done aswell. Its quite easy to say look how rubbish our diet is compared to our gran's generation which was all home cooked, but the simple fact of the matter is, they didn't have the food, restaurants and technology we have now so its impossible to say how they would've acted if they did have.
A comparison to rest of Europe is fair and despite the better weather, better arable conditions and local food, on average 53% of EU adults are over weight, just a few points of the number of overweight adults in England.
And another thing, UPFs taste good. Junk food and drinks have been deliberately designed to be tasty and addictive, so its little surprise some people are hooked and keep going back to them.
The bigger issue for the rest of the population will be time poor. % wise we pay more of the average salary to mortgages/rent than we ever have, so both of a couple are likely to be working. Locally, there's very little well paid jobs and people are travelling out to business parks/centres, or having to commute into cities etc which all adds time and causes stress.
My dietary requirements exclude most ready meals and frozen premade foods so much so i've not got a microwave. And despite enjoying cooking if there was an option of decent ready meals available to me I probably would opt for one from time to time. Probably as 2-3 generations back, who we like to compare todays diet with, would've done aswell. Its quite easy to say look how rubbish our diet is compared to our gran's generation which was all home cooked, but the simple fact of the matter is, they didn't have the food, restaurants and technology we have now so its impossible to say how they would've acted if they did have.
A comparison to rest of Europe is fair and despite the better weather, better arable conditions and local food, on average 53% of EU adults are over weight, just a few points of the number of overweight adults in England.
And another thing, UPFs taste good. Junk food and drinks have been deliberately designed to be tasty and addictive, so its little surprise some people are hooked and keep going back to them.
JackJarvis said:
craigthecoupe said:
JackJarvis said:
It's a combination of requiring 2 full time salaries to pay the mortgage, combined with the rise of convenience / fast foods, JustEat etc.
That isn't the case though is it? I've never ordered via just eat (currently not in the uk) but i bet if you can afford to, you can afford a bunch of bannanas, a few apples, and a couple of kiwis?I keep hearing specifically about people being unable to afford to eat fresh fruit and veg. I wonder what sort of % of the population the are talking about?
A friend of mine works in a petrol station/convenience store. This morning I stood talking to him for an hour, in between customers. I watched and listened as he served them. He sold energy drinks, flapjacks, chocolate bars, vapes, and cigarettes hand-over-fist. Just next to the till is a display basket containing a few "reduced" items, and fruit. Bananas, mainly. Priced individually at 25 pence each. Literally nothing else he sold was as little as 25p, and literally nothing was as convenient to find as bananas right under their noses. But not one customer chose the orders of magnitude cheaper fruit ahead of the Monster/Rockstar/Prime crap they left with. And God knows some of them could have done with even a marginally healthier option.
It's not even as if the 25p each bananas were comparatively much more expensive than buying them by weight in a local supermarket. I buy mine individually at Tesco less than half a mile away, and pay between 17p and 26p per banana depending on the size. Priorities is right. "Wah! It's not fair, how can you have sold out of my favourite pink lemonade flavour vape - now I'll have to make do with tropical pineapple ffs"
And don't get me started on chaps in hospital gowns and slippers out buying roll-your-own tobacco while trying not to drop a bag they've got stuffed inside their jacket which is connected to a tube coming out from under the hospital gown. Or the bell end on the mobility scooter moaning that he's in pain from broken ribs because he "fell over". I've nearly been run over by him on his derestricted mobility scooter a number of times and I'd bet my mortgage that his ribs are the result of him taking a corner too fast and rolling the thing. His "basket" of goods? Yeah, Monster energy drink, Bakewell tarts, and a little tin of fags. People are either lazy or stupid. You cannot moan about being short of money in one breath, then produce your debit card to buy a load of high sugar, high fat junk with the next, while cheaper, healthier options are literally staring you in the face.
We all know pistonheads doesnt represent the whole of society, and there must be people on the edge struggling like hell. So is convenience the symptom or the cure?
When i was at school, i had to do home economics as part of my technology syllabus, that was sewing, cooking and woodwork. i think we did a term of each. Is there anything like that now? can young people classify food into basic food groups for example?
I live in Italy at present, and obviously Italy has a strong food identity, but i sat at a neighbours table two weeks back for lunch. Around 20 of us, three courses, and all home made, including the wine and grappa. It was broadly older folks, i wonder if their heritage will be lost to convenience in the next generation or two?
When i was at school, i had to do home economics as part of my technology syllabus, that was sewing, cooking and woodwork. i think we did a term of each. Is there anything like that now? can young people classify food into basic food groups for example?
I live in Italy at present, and obviously Italy has a strong food identity, but i sat at a neighbours table two weeks back for lunch. Around 20 of us, three courses, and all home made, including the wine and grappa. It was broadly older folks, i wonder if their heritage will be lost to convenience in the next generation or two?
For many people they say it’s lack of time. I don’t agree with this. It’s more laziness and poor use of time. People are “busy” doing lots of things that we would have seen as time wasters many years ago. Convenience foods and both parents working has made it easier to play the busy card.
You can cook good meals from scratch fairly quick and those that take longer you can batch cook and freeze. I never eat ready meals because in reality I have my own in the freezer. Just eat etc has made take away food much more available too that it was a few years ago.
It’s just too easy and too convenient to say “I’m busy” and then switch on between and reach for the just eat menu.
I don’t think we spend enough focus on life skills at school and being able to cook a range of basic meals from scratch is just that.
You can cook good meals from scratch fairly quick and those that take longer you can batch cook and freeze. I never eat ready meals because in reality I have my own in the freezer. Just eat etc has made take away food much more available too that it was a few years ago.
It’s just too easy and too convenient to say “I’m busy” and then switch on between and reach for the just eat menu.
I don’t think we spend enough focus on life skills at school and being able to cook a range of basic meals from scratch is just that.
But it's half a term so necessarily basic.Something I've noticed in recent years - where I live we have a green wheelie bin for garden and food waste, it's collected every other Friday.
During the summer months every green bin appears kerbside every collection day as people use it for garden waste.
From now on until April-ish only two or three green bins out of around 20 that we can see are put out; do the other houses really never have any food waste? Do they never have vegetable peelings, bones, skins or food scraps to dispose of?
Is this an indication they all they eat are ready meals and take-aways? It wouldn't surprise me judging by the number of times a week delivery drivers ring our bell in mistake for other houses with the same number (there are four within a very short distance, all with the same post code.)
During the summer months every green bin appears kerbside every collection day as people use it for garden waste.
From now on until April-ish only two or three green bins out of around 20 that we can see are put out; do the other houses really never have any food waste? Do they never have vegetable peelings, bones, skins or food scraps to dispose of?
Is this an indication they all they eat are ready meals and take-aways? It wouldn't surprise me judging by the number of times a week delivery drivers ring our bell in mistake for other houses with the same number (there are four within a very short distance, all with the same post code.)
For a significant proportion ignorance and laziness is a key factor. Shop every fortnight in farm foods or the food warehouse and live on nuggets, pizza and oven chips supplemented by deliveroo and a trip to "Maccy D" to keep this kids quiet. If you haven't got anything else in the house stick the kids in front of the TV with frozen on DVD, give them 2 litres of coke and a bag of doritos for dinner. When they are asleep get some fish and chips or fried rice and sweet and sour chicken balls from the takeaway round the corner.
(Almost sounds like I'm quoting real world examples doesn't it)
Real food is very much a luxury for many but IME a lot of those that "can't afford it" somehow manage to buy dodgy fags at work for a couple of quid a pack and go to the pub a couple of nights a week, "go bingo" or "double their money" with online gaming which is handy because it means they can then afford to go to the pub again.
(Not ranting, honest, just quoting a few things I used to hear every day while trying to educate parents about child obesity and real world early death due to their ignorance and neglect)
Love him or hate him Jamie Oliver did try to get people cooking and I think he did more than he gets credit for. Most are not aware of his work in the US on the subject as well but are very happy to criticise or spout their opinion of him as a person without having even met the guy.
It starts at ground level. No-one shopping in waitrose of getting their hellofresh box needs educating or support but my experience tells me it's a bit of a lost cause both in terms of the people you need to target and the food industry.
in terms of cost? It's cheaper to buy a one off ready meal than cook from scratch. Yes you can do mathematical gymnastics to cost it by gram if you want (I do for a living) but you won't beat a frozen beef mince pie for one or a bag of chicken nuggets.
ETA: this is a subject I am very passionate about, studied quite extensively and an area I worked in for nearly 10 years. Keep the discussion going.
(Almost sounds like I'm quoting real world examples doesn't it)
Real food is very much a luxury for many but IME a lot of those that "can't afford it" somehow manage to buy dodgy fags at work for a couple of quid a pack and go to the pub a couple of nights a week, "go bingo" or "double their money" with online gaming which is handy because it means they can then afford to go to the pub again.
(Not ranting, honest, just quoting a few things I used to hear every day while trying to educate parents about child obesity and real world early death due to their ignorance and neglect)
Love him or hate him Jamie Oliver did try to get people cooking and I think he did more than he gets credit for. Most are not aware of his work in the US on the subject as well but are very happy to criticise or spout their opinion of him as a person without having even met the guy.
It starts at ground level. No-one shopping in waitrose of getting their hellofresh box needs educating or support but my experience tells me it's a bit of a lost cause both in terms of the people you need to target and the food industry.
in terms of cost? It's cheaper to buy a one off ready meal than cook from scratch. Yes you can do mathematical gymnastics to cost it by gram if you want (I do for a living) but you won't beat a frozen beef mince pie for one or a bag of chicken nuggets.
ETA: this is a subject I am very passionate about, studied quite extensively and an area I worked in for nearly 10 years. Keep the discussion going.
Edited by 21TonyK on Tuesday 17th October 20:23
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