The ask a 'water sommelier' thread

[bolidemichael]

For over a decade, I have owned and operated a business specialising in the distribution and retail of both mineral water and soft drinks. In 2017, I participated in a course in order to become a certified 'water sommelier', the first Brit to have gain this recognition, make of that what you will.

In the meantime, I have learned a lot about mineral water (and soft drinks) - the business, the production and... the tactile sensation on one's palate, colloquially referred to as 'taste'.

I am neither a powerfullybuiltstairdominatingdirectortype nor a practitioner of new age treatments. Think 'school of Life of Brian, Black Adder and Red Dwarf' and you'll get where I come from i.e. just as cynical as you which a healthy dose of pedantry! Also 'Only Fools and Horses' in case anyone is tempted to take the bait and fire off the obvious comment...

Mineral water is definitely a misunderstood 'product', so am willing to try and address any questions that PHers might have. I've tried to keep the intro brief so as not to pre-empt any questions.

bm

[InitialDave]

"Of course, Ankh-Morpork’s citizens had always claimed that the river water was incredibly pure in any case. Any water that had passed through so many kidneys, they reasoned, had to be very pure indeed."

[Greshamst]

Water is the fastest growing drinks sector, so you’re in the right part of the industry...

What do you think of tap water down south?

[Zirconia]

What are the long term issues of drinking bottled water? I am back to tap but the contents often made me wonder how Maude I was in taking via the plastic goodness.

[bolidemichael]

InitialDave said:

"Of course, Ankh-Morpork’s citizens had always claimed that the river water was incredibly pure in any case. Any water that had passed through so many kidneys, they reasoned, had to be very pure indeed."

How very esoteric

Greshamst said:

Water is the fastest growing drinks sector, so you’re in the right part of the industry...

What do you think of tap water down south?

Kombucha, though there have been continuous reports of bottled water sales growing year on year. Packaging type is another consideration for water growth areas, as people want alternatives to single use plastic.

Tap water down South, full of bicarbonates, thick, gloopy and not thirst quenching in the slightest.

Zirconia said:

What are the long term issues of drinking bottled water? I am back to tap but the contents often made me wonder how Maude I was in taking via the plastic goodness.

Hello Maude... is that in reference to the oestrogen in tap water, perhaps, or possible effect of long term consumption in water from plastic bottles?

You'd have to elaborate further, I'm afraid, on what you mean by 'long term effects'. Is this in relation to the minerals, the packaging or the volume consumed daily... or other?

[Chainsaw Rebuild]

InitialDave said:

"Of course, Ankh-Morpork’s citizens had always claimed that the river water was incredibly pure in any case. Any water that had passed through so many kidneys, they reasoned, had to be very pure indeed."

Yes! I love a quote from the gifted late Mr Pratchett.

[knk]

How much sodium bicarbonate should I put in 700ml of water prior to carbonation in order to make it soda water?

[bolidemichael]

knk said:

How much sodium bicarbonate should I put in 700ml of water prior to carbonation in order to make it soda water?

I refer you to the yet to be created 'ask a chemist' thread.

[anonymous-user]

Why is mineral water misunderstood? I would say it isn't.

I watched this guy on youtube, who had made his own water from ones, ithink he was what you are.

[fizz47]

In the industry which mineral water is considered the holy grail of mineral waters or gold standard...

Personally cannot tell the difference betweeen the majority of minieral water companies / brands except FIJI water.

For some reason that is the only mineral water I will go out of my way to drink...

[knk]

I like Badoit, but I understand they have stopped selling in the UK.

[Zirconia]

bolidemichael said:

Hello Maude... is that in reference to the oestrogen in tap water, perhaps, or possible effect of long term consumption in water from plastic bottles?

You'd have to elaborate further, I'm afraid, on what you mean by 'long term effects'. Is this in relation to the minerals, the packaging or the volume consumed daily... or other?

Spiil chocker threw me.
Maude. As in much.

On the contents it lists a lot of minerals. I never really considered it but chugging several mineral bottles os water variety a day got me wondering how much I was intaking vs what was good or bad for me. Due to the plastic issue I am now tap all the way.

And I hate the taste of London tap water.

[knk]

bolidemichael said:

I refer you to the yet to be created 'ask a chemist' thread.

Thanks. You said you know a lot about water and soft drinks, and specifically mentioned the production of them.

[knk]

I went to an interesting exhibition at the V&A on food and it had a recipe for an opensource coca cola recipe - Cube cola.

Interesting.
https://cube-cola.org/index.php?route=information/...

[ZedLeg]

click me NSFW (swearing)

[bolidemichael]

Thesprucegoose said:

Why is mineral water misunderstood? I would say it isn't.

I watched this guy on youtube, who had made his own water from ones, ithink he was what you are.

In depends entirely on what you understand, without being intentionally rhetorical... I refer you to the endless media fascination for 'tap water vs bottled water' debates as evidence of this.

What do you mean by "made his own water from ones" and I don't think that he is what I am, though post a link and I'll verify.

Please note that 'bottled water' attracts a lot of knobbers.

fizz47 said:

In the industry which mineral water is considered the holy grail of mineral waters or gold standard...

Personally cannot tell the difference betweeen the majority of minieral water companies / brands except FIJI water.

For some reason that is the only mineral water I will go out of my way to drink...

I would say that the EU guidelines for bottled water are a good base line for establishing a hierarchy of quality:

Natural Mineral Water (NMW) - microbiologically pure at source, not tampered with, bottled at source (this is defined to allow for a reasonable extraction method) and maintains a consistent parameter of minerals indentified. Cannot be co-bottled and labelled as a NMW.

Spring Water - microbiologically pure at source, not tampered with, doesn't have to be bottled at source and can be a blend of different springs with different mineral contents. See Highland Spring changed from a Natural Mineral Water to a Spring Water in order to capitalise on the greater yield available from the various springs.

Table Water - anything from tap water (see Dasani) to modified water.

Natural Mineral Waters are the definition of provenance. They are a natural product, unmodified (within agreed guidelines) and are assured to be the same product every time that you consume it.

Fiji water, whilst not a NMW (they probably don't want to pay for EU accreditation despite being owned by one of the world's richest men) is an Artesian Water, which as a marketing concept possible has enough cache to diminish any perceived value in NMW status.

An artesian water is from an impermeable source that rises to the ground under it's own pressure. Fiji has a distinctive mouthfeel and you clearly like it, without knowing why - that is down to the minerals that it possesses, which alter the 'mouthfeel', and you innately recognise this without having a terminology to access that adequately describes your experience.

Incidentally, FIJI also possesses a very high content of Silica, which is the only mineral known to flush aluminium toxicity from the human body... that subject itself is a fascinating demonstration of how significant minerals are, to one's physiology.

As you have asked a myriad of great questions... the 'gold' standard for me is something that can be defined via a number of criteria...

Source - some waters are naturally carbonated, as a result of their journey to the surface, such as badoit. That journey imbues water with a complexity of various minerals and there is a great deal of variety in the Earth's surface.

Presentation - does the packaging entice you to interact with the product

Packaging - is the product contained within an inert substance, such as glass?

'Taste' or character - is the mineral content memorable and distinctive

Mineral Properties - does the water possess a mineral or more that is valuable to our bodies or conversely, is it absent in certain minerals which are undesirable?

As you can see, this is a small selection of the criteria against which people can evaluate a preferential bottled water and label it as a 'gold' standard.

knk said:

I like Badoit, but I understand they have stopped selling in the UK.

That's correct, Danone pulled it on 14th August after analysis of the spring demonstrated an unsustainable volume for market growth. They have restricted it to the French market... we currently import it via the grey market in order to satisfy demand. A much loved water with a distinctive saline characteristic.

Zirconia said:

bolidemichael said:

Hello Maude... is that in reference to the oestrogen in tap water, perhaps, or possible effect of long term consumption in water from plastic bottles?

You'd have to elaborate further, I'm afraid, on what you mean by 'long term effects'. Is this in relation to the minerals, the packaging or the volume consumed daily... or other?

On the contents it lists a lot of minerals. I never really considered it but chugging several mineral bottles os water variety a day got me wondering how much I was intaking vs what was good or bad for me. Due to the plastic issue I am now tap all the way.

And I hate the taste of London tap water.

There are other packaging types - consider cans, tetra pak or ideally, glass.

Minerals in water are the most bioavailable of any food source i.e. calcium in water is absorbed in a greater proportion than calcium in milk or cheese. If you understand the effect of minerals on the body, you'll appreciate the variety of mineral waters much more... though those available in the supermarkets are mostly largely homogenous. My suggestion is to vary your consumption to ensure a good balance.

knk said:

bolidemichael said:

I refer you to the yet to be created 'ask a chemist' thread.

Thanks. You said you know a lot about water and soft drinks, and specifically mentioned the production of them.

True. I have visited a lot of sources and production facilites for bottled water so have asked a lot of questions; this doesn't extend to the chemistry of manufacturing soft drinks, I'm afraid. Thanks for asking, though.

knk said:

I went to an interesting exhibition at the V&A on food and it had a recipe for an opensource coca cola recipe - Cube cola.

Interesting.
https://cube-cola.org/index.php?route=information/...

Fascinating... but too much for me to absorb! Was this the V&A London or Dundee?

ZedLeg said:

click me NSFW (swearing)

The withering humour of a nasal Glaswegian... the lowest common denominator attitude is most definitely the inspiration for this thread! I appreciate the variety on 'Only Fools' however, though nil points for originality!

Edited by bolidemichael on Thursday 3rd October 15:35

[Scabutz]

bolidemichael said:

As you have asked a myriad of questions... the 'gold' standard for me is something that can be defined via a number of criteria...

Source - some waters are naturally carbonated, such as badoit.

Presentation - does the packaging entice you to interact with the product

Packaging - is the product contained within an inert substance, such as glass?

'Taste' or character - is the mineral content memorable and distinctive

Mineral Properties - does the water possess a mineral or more that is valuable to our bodies or conversely, is it absent in certain minerals which are undesirable?

I apologise in advance if you are serious with this, but this is a piss take non? "Does the packaging entice you to interact with the product", eh? Its water, I drink it because I am thirsty. "is the mineral content memorable and distinctive", what is a memorable and distinctive mineral content? I'm mean if its full of arsenic its distinctive, might not be very memorable for the person drinking it.

Wine snobs are pretentious, water snobs though, Whole new level! I assume you are working in a high-end hotel / restaurant? How many people actually give a flying fig about the water?

[ZedLeg]

bolidemichael said:

ZedLeg said:

click me NSFW (swearing)

The withering humour of a nasal Glaswegian... the lowest common denominator attitude is most definitely the inspiration for this thread! I appreciate the variety on 'Only Fools' however, though nil points for originality!

Edited by bolidemichael on Thursday 3rd October 15:35

Water Sommelier sounds like something that would be in an end stage capitalism dystopia but here we are.

Shipping bottled water around the world so people can get pretentious about it is ludicrous.

[anonymous-user]

bolidemichael said:

What do you mean by "made his own water from ones" and I don't think that he is what I am, though post a link and I'll verify.

nsfw some swearing

https://youtu.be/rg3Mr6e1KMo?t=145

2 Chainz & Diplo Try $100K Bottled Water | Most Expensivest Sh*t | GQ

http://beverlywater.com/

''Winner of the World’s Best Water Award, the extraordinary Beverly Hills 9OH2O was designed from the ground up by a world-class team of experts, including the world’s leading water sommelier Martin Riese, to be the ultimate in water.''

[Scabutz]

Thesprucegoose said:

ultimate in water.

The ultimate in water......is wine Shirley?