Sourdough breadmaking
Discussion
Whoozit said:
Happy to. This is the short version of my standard recipe with more or less user-friendly hydration, feel free to ask any questions.
150g whole rye starter (1:1)
100g whole rye flour
400g STRONG bread flour (mine is 15% protein)
375g water (78% hydration inc starter) at around 30 degrees
9g salt
1hr autolyse of water, flour and salt
Add the starter and mix well
4hr prove with 3x stretch and folds and 1x lamination in temps of 22 degrees plus and away from draughts
Shape, into banneton floured with rice flour
Overnight cold proof
Bake in dutch oven 25 mins @240C covered, 15 mins @220C uncovered
So this kinda did and didn't work. I only had some cheap strong white bread flour in the cupboard, so used that. I've never done an autolyse before – do you just combine the ingredients and leave for an hour, or mix and then leave? I mixed, left an hour, then added the starter and mixed for the usual 10 minutes that I normally do.150g whole rye starter (1:1)
100g whole rye flour
400g STRONG bread flour (mine is 15% protein)
375g water (78% hydration inc starter) at around 30 degrees
9g salt
1hr autolyse of water, flour and salt
Add the starter and mix well
4hr prove with 3x stretch and folds and 1x lamination in temps of 22 degrees plus and away from draughts
Shape, into banneton floured with rice flour
Overnight cold proof
Bake in dutch oven 25 mins @240C covered, 15 mins @220C uncovered
Hydration is very similar to my usual recipe, but I couldn't get it anything like a dough and was a gloopy mess. Stuck it in the fridge Friday night, still gloopy Saturday and didn't really have time to do anything with it, so left it in the fridge until Sunday afternoon. After nearly 48 hours cold proving, as it was still so liquid, I added what must have been somewhere between 50-100g more flour and mixed it in, to get the usual dough consistency I'm used to.
Another night in the fridge in a banneton then baked this morning – and by far the best loaf I've ever made
So a happy accident, not sure if it's something I'll be able to repeat or how I got it so wrong in the first place, but thanks for the recipe! The flavour was exceptional after 3 days of cold proving.
illmonkey said:
Look alright that Ben! Autolyse is mixing the flour and water together to make a dough, just missing the starter (and salt in my case, I add that after the starter)
Whoozit, I'm intrigued, 78% hydration is massive isn't it? I am on 63% and they are coming out well.
My normal hydration has been 87%, something changed in the past two months so I dialled it back to 78%. It's certainly high, however the internet suggests a higher hydration helps the yeastie beasties to move more freely and I get a much better flavour. Whoozit, I'm intrigued, 78% hydration is massive isn't it? I am on 63% and they are coming out well.
Ben, the dough is going to be on the sloppy side, certainly nothing like a normal bread dough. It takes a different approach to handling and shaping it. If you're not happy with the sloppiness, worth to try it with 50g water less and see what you get?
illmonkey said:
Look alright that Ben! Autolyse is mixing the flour and water together to make a dough, just missing the starter (and salt in my case, I add that after the starter)
Whoozit, I'm intrigued, 78% hydration is massive isn't it? I am on 63% and they are coming out well.
Thanks! So I did the right thing to mix it together then.Whoozit, I'm intrigued, 78% hydration is massive isn't it? I am on 63% and they are coming out well.
Whoozit said:
My normal hydration has been 87%, something changed in the past two months so I dialled it back to 78%. It's certainly high, however the internet suggests a higher hydration helps the yeastie beasties to move more freely and I get a much better flavour.
Ben, the dough is going to be on the sloppy side, certainly nothing like a normal bread dough. It takes a different approach to handling and shaping it. If you're not happy with the sloppiness, worth to try it with 50g water less and see what you get?
Thanks Whoozit. It was so sloppy I just couldn't do anything with it – I think I would have ended up with a tray bake rather than a loaf of bread if I hadn't added anymore flour Ben, the dough is going to be on the sloppy side, certainly nothing like a normal bread dough. It takes a different approach to handling and shaping it. If you're not happy with the sloppiness, worth to try it with 50g water less and see what you get?
Will try cutting the water next time and see how it goes, cheers!Glad i just found this thread. Been making Soughdough for the last couple of years off and on. I really like it, but its time consuming to make 
My neighbour is originally from San Fran and loves sough dough and has his own you tube channel https://www.youtube.com/c/LoafHacker/featured he created an app as well which is handy called 'autoproofer'.
This was my last attempt, but disappointed with the lack of crunchy top.
My neighbour is originally from San Fran and loves sough dough and has his own you tube channel https://www.youtube.com/c/LoafHacker/featured he created an app as well which is handy called 'autoproofer'.
This was my last attempt, but disappointed with the lack of crunchy top.
illmonkey said:
The results you're getting this way are very good but I think your next refinement should be baking in the lid of a dutch oven rather than dropping it into a casserole. You can do away with the paper trick thenThey're not ridiculously expensive; you need to season them but I think your loaves will open up better.
oddman said:
illmonkey said:
The results you're getting this way are very good but I think your next refinement should be baking in the lid of a dutch oven rather than dropping it into a casserole. You can do away with the paper trick thenThey're not ridiculously expensive; you need to season them but I think your loaves will open up better.
They come out well and taste delish
illmonkey said:
Looks like you've pretty much nailed it. Inspired again to make bread I ordered a banneton etc and this was todays result.
70% hydration, 18 hours cold and 6 warm in the banneton, no kneeding at all, just inital mix.
Next time I'll kneed a couple of times, do a slightly smaller mix and proof for longer. See if I can get more aeration.
illmonkey said:
What’s the reason behind using a lid? I only just got this dish for sourdough, so reluctant to spend more!
They come out well and taste delish
I'd assumed you were improvising with a casserole you'd already got.They come out well and taste delish
A Dutch oven is just a Le Creuset style cast iron casserole with no enamel. Lid of a Dutch oven is flat and has no knob or handle on the top so it can sit flat on the shelf with the pan as a a cloche over the top. Easier to load and less likely to squeeze the slash shut than lowering the loaf into a casserole on paper.
Won't make any difference to taste just appearance
Edited by oddman on Saturday 5th March 16:16
illmonkey said:
What’s the reason behind using a lid? I only just got this dish for sourdough, so reluctant to spend more!
My kids bought me one of these...https://www.doublezerolab.com/product/pizza-steel-...
Makes a noticable difference to cooking in a domestic oven and not just for bread and pizza. Its helps maintain a consistent temperature and gives instant heat from below which is obviously great for baking but also yorkshires and roast potatos!
21TonyK said:
My kids bought me one of these...
https://www.doublezerolab.com/product/pizza-steel-...
Makes a noticable difference to cooking in a domestic oven and not just for bread and pizza. Its helps maintain a consistent temperature and gives instant heat from below which is obviously great for baking but also yorkshires and roast potatos!
That's very good value. I ordered a piece of 10mm mild steel to fit my oven and bevelled the edges and seasoned it at home. That was £36 delivered and it took a few hours work to finish.https://www.doublezerolab.com/product/pizza-steel-...
Makes a noticable difference to cooking in a domestic oven and not just for bread and pizza. Its helps maintain a consistent temperature and gives instant heat from below which is obviously great for baking but also yorkshires and roast potatos!
The steel works fantastically well for pizza and baguettes. I get the sort of oven spring that means baguettes are almost circular in cross section. Pizzas get nice leopard spotting and crispy bases. You need a lot of steam for bread to spring well though. I put a baking tray with a soaked towel inside the oven. For sourdough the easiest way is for the bread to be enclosed in an iron pot for the first half of its cooking the steam from the wet dough keeps it from forming a crust so it can expand to its full potential. If you baked the loaf in the photo without a lid thats amazing.
What I was suggesting to Illmonkey is that he inverts his pot and bakes the loaf in the lid rather than dropping it into the pot on parchment paper. Home sourdough bakers using a steel would still mostly put a cloche over the top for steaming. It's also a PIA loading loaves onto a blazing got steel rather than putting a pot into the oven. In terms of heat conduction, the pot does the same job as a steel.
Edited by oddman on Sunday 6th March 09:48
oddman said:
21TonyK said:
My kids bought me one of these...
https://www.doublezerolab.com/product/pizza-steel-...
Makes a noticable difference to cooking in a domestic oven and not just for bread and pizza. Its helps maintain a consistent temperature and gives instant heat from below which is obviously great for baking but also yorkshires and roast potatos!
That's very good value. I ordered a piece of 10mm mild steel to fit my oven and bevelled the edges and seasoned it at home. That was £36 delivered and it took a few hours work to finish.https://www.doublezerolab.com/product/pizza-steel-...
Makes a noticable difference to cooking in a domestic oven and not just for bread and pizza. Its helps maintain a consistent temperature and gives instant heat from below which is obviously great for baking but also yorkshires and roast potatos!
The steel works fantastically well for pizza and baguettes. I get the sort of oven spring that means baguettes are almost circular in cross section. Pizzas get nice leopard spotting and crispy bases. You need a lot of steam for bread to spring well though. I put a baking tray with a soaked towel inside the oven. For sourdough the easiest way is for the bread to be enclosed in an iron pot for the first half of its cooking the steam from the wet dough keeps it from forming a crust so it can expand to its full potential. If you baked the loaf in the photo without a lid thats amazing.
What I was suggesting to Illmonkey is that he inverts his pot and bakes the loaf in the lid rather than dropping it into the pot on parchment paper. Home sourdough bakers using a steel would still mostly put a cloche over the top for steaming. It's also a PIA loading loaves onto a blazing got steel rather than putting a pot into the oven. In terms of heat conduction, the pot does the same job as a steel.
Edited by oddman on Sunday 6th March 09:48
I've baked in a le creuset pan same as monkey with half decent results but found the size loaf was a bit "meh".
Now having said its the first time I have used a banneton I just did what I thought would work....
Cold proof the no-kneed dough in the fridge (3 degrees) for 18 hours then shape and into the floured banneton. Then... a banneton sized disc of parchment over the dough followed by the supplied "cloth" (dampened) as a lid, then left on the side in a warm kitchen 22-23 degrees. Then... cloth off, baking sheet on top then invert whole thing and lift off the banneton and slide on the paper from the sheet to the baking steel.
For consistency I'm doing another loaf with a longer cold proof and a kneed before shaping and the warm proof, plus 20% less dough as I expect a greater rise before baking. Just experiementing really.
Think I'll have to find something big enough to try as a lid for the first part of the bake.
Edited by 21TonyK on Sunday 6th March 10:47
21TonyK said:
Cold proof the no-kneed dough in the fridge (3 degrees) for 18 hours then shape and into the floured banneton.
One option could be to shape and put in the banneton the day before, and bake from cold? Less faff on baking day and the dough is stiffer = easier to score + transfer21TonyK said:
Think I'll have to find something big enough to try as a lid for the first part of the bake.
I used a big ceramic mixing bowl for around nine months, it works very well indeed. But it's hard on the bowl 
mine fell apart.Whoozit said:
21TonyK said:
Cold proof the no-kneed dough in the fridge (3 degrees) for 18 hours then shape and into the floured banneton.
One option could be to shape and put in the banneton the day before, and bake from cold? Less faff on baking day and the dough is stiffer = easier to score + transfer21TonyK said:
Think I'll have to find something big enough to try as a lid for the first part of the bake.
I used a big ceramic mixing bowl for around nine months, it works very well indeed. But it's hard on the bowl mine fell apart.I'll pop into work in the morning and pinch a big stainless mixing bowl
Whoozit said:
21TonyK said:
You mean bake from 3C? Does that work?
I'll pop into work in the morning and pinch a big stainless mixing bowl
a) yup, it's fineI'll pop into work in the morning and pinch a big stainless mixing bowl
b) Stainless is better than nothing but not as good as preheated ceramic or cast iron
Challo said:
Could anyone recommend some cost effect Dutch Ovens? I'm just using a steel baking sheet at the moment, with a tray of boiling water in the bottom of the oven. The results have been good, but would like to try the Dutch Oven method is if possible.
I bought a casserole dish, for bread but also as a big pan to cook in. I've then been told to get a proper dutch oven, a handleless upside down pan, like so: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pre-Seasoned-Dutch-Oven-C...You put the dough on the lid, then the bottom ontop, if that makes sense.
My casserole is 27cm diameter, so I have to do 1.5x a normal dough recipe to 'fill' the dish, otherwise it's flat. So maybe look for something low 20's if you want a normal loaf. (Something I want as I can't eat a big one before it's stale)
On that note, I was going to ask the group how long I can keep a dough in the fridge? I was thinking to do the same amount of dough, but half it and use a smaller dish. Do one on a Sat morning, one on Sunday or Monday, would it be ok in the fridge for 48hrs?
Challo said:
Could anyone recommend some cost effect Dutch Ovens? I'm just using a steel baking sheet at the moment, with a tray of boiling water in the bottom of the oven. The results have been good, but would like to try the Dutch Oven method is if possible.
i asked the same thing a little while ago - and was recommended this:Whoozit said:
The Kichly dutch oven I use is now £25 on Amazon. Was £40 when I bought it, even that seemed a bargain. It's been in use two/three times a week for a year and needed only one reseasoning when one pan got wet.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/KICHLY-Pre-Seasoned-Combo...
i got one and have had excellent results - so much better than using a tray https://www.amazon.co.uk/KICHLY-Pre-Seasoned-Combo...
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