new pants please
Discussion
would i be right in saying that it was the airframes delta wing coming into ground effect that "saved" that?? Looks like a significant rate of decent ( and a high AOA) that is abruptly halted only 5-10M above the r/w ?? (either that, or a VERY confident pilot input??)
Also, with a modern FBW jet, how "soon" will the plane know the pilots messed it up? (i.e. max recovery from a known rate of decent in a known altitude?? i.e. would the plane have been anunciating all sorts of warnings during that event??)
Also, with a modern FBW jet, how "soon" will the plane know the pilots messed it up? (i.e. max recovery from a known rate of decent in a known altitude?? i.e. would the plane have been anunciating all sorts of warnings during that event??)
Max_Torque said:
would i be right in saying that it was the airframes delta wing coming into ground effect that "saved" that?? Looks like a significant rate of decent ( and a high AOA) that is abruptly halted only 5-10M above the r/w ?? (either that, or a VERY confident pilot input??)
I like to think on birth we should all be issued with an 'Oh f
k' button. You can only use it once and it fires you up and away about a mile and you land in a nice pastoral meadow, therefrom to leg it to safety. Handy when facing firing squads etc. Max_Torque said:
Also, with a modern FBW jet, how "soon" will the plane know the pilots messed it up? (i.e. max recovery from a known rate of decent in a known altitude?? i.e. would the plane have been anunciating all sorts of warnings during that event??)
One step from that to auto-eject - although if it happened without warning you'd be in for significant injury. Better bent than dead though. Even better not to get in a mess to start with.
Auto eject? No such thing...
The alt readout on the HUD tape, if I recall rightly, got down into double digits, and the first digit was '1'...
I was watching from near the end of the runway and it's the closest I've ever seen an aircraft come to crashing. He kicked up a lot of earth and dust from the runway and grass to the side of it. There was some damage to the runway surface from the reheat I understand.
The alt readout on the HUD tape, if I recall rightly, got down into double digits, and the first digit was '1'...
I was watching from near the end of the runway and it's the closest I've ever seen an aircraft come to crashing. He kicked up a lot of earth and dust from the runway and grass to the side of it. There was some damage to the runway surface from the reheat I understand.
Max_Torque said:
would i be right in saying that it was the airframes delta wing coming into ground effect that "saved" that?? Looks like a significant rate of decent ( and a high AOA) that is abruptly halted only 5-10M above the r/w ?? (either that, or a VERY confident pilot input??)
Ground Effect may have played a part but, looking at it in slow motion, it is apparent that the aerofoils had already started to 'bite' and that there was just enough space to complete the manoeuvre. Ie there is no 'yug' at the end of the manoeuvre.Low level aeros are dangerous because there is no margin if you get it wrong. To that end, any display pilot will have a series of 'Gates' which he/she must achieve before starting a subsequent manoeuvre. Ie minimum heights and speeds.
The low level Barrel Roll/Dumbell/Wingover Reverse Turn have historically been a killer (eg the Phantom at Abingdon in the early '80s, Hoof Proudfoot in the P38, Ormond Haydon Baillie in the twin seat P51 {where he also killed his passenger}, the Nimrod at Toronto {that killed a very good Navigator friend of mine}) because they are easy to feck up. Go in too slack and you don't reach your altitude gate, you have a lower energy state (which means your turning performance is reduced), pitch too nose low at the top and you run out of airspace.
If you watch the video carefully, the entry is very slack, the required height isn't achieved, the a/c pitches nose low inverted, and there is an 'Oh Jaysus' pull to try to avert a disaster. He'd have been better realising he got it wrong early, unloading the a/c and rolling to wings level.
Unfortunately there are a number of psychological factors upon the Display Pilot that, if not understood, can predispose you to disaster. These range from 'getting the job done', ego and personal pride, to not wanting to disappoint the crowd.
I'm sure the Pro Aero Display pilots on here like E Harding would be able to elucidate more upon this.
Max_Torque said:
Also, with a modern FBW jet, how "soon" will the plane know the pilots messed it up? (i.e. max recovery from a known rate of decent in a known altitude?? i.e. would the plane have been enunciating all sorts of warnings during that event??)
With an 'Electric Jet' the a/c will only go to max alpha for the conditions despite how hard the pilot pulls - if there is insufficient sky you will be a smoking hole in the ground. It won't 'know' its altitude and apply corrective action to save the a/c, it will just limit the pilot's demands to what is aerodynamically available.Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Sunday 24th April 23:45
mrloudly said:
The Typhoon system knows each pilots "G" profile. Individuals can with-stain less over a period of continued exposure and the aircraft won't let them exceed
their own tolerance levels. Very clever stuff
I'd love to see where you read / heard that! (Its nonsense!)their own tolerance levels. Very clever stuff
DamienB said:
Auto eject? No such thing....
No such thing in the Typhoon, but it was there in the YAK-38, and will be there in STOVL F-35.DamienB said:
Auto eject? No such thing...
The alt readout on the HUD tape, if I recall rightly, got down into double digits, and the first digit was '1'...
I was watching from near the end of the runway and it's the closest I've ever seen an aircraft come to crashing. He kicked up a lot of earth and dust from the runway and grass to the side of it. There was some damage to the runway surface from the reheat I understand.
That is a fantastic shot The alt readout on the HUD tape, if I recall rightly, got down into double digits, and the first digit was '1'...
I was watching from near the end of the runway and it's the closest I've ever seen an aircraft come to crashing. He kicked up a lot of earth and dust from the runway and grass to the side of it. There was some damage to the runway surface from the reheat I understand.
DamienB said:
Auto eject? No such thing...
I didnt say there was, merely that if the airplane was sufficiently clever to know whether it was going to crash, as Max Torque suggested, then the final link would be easy. But on balance it is probably better to have the human deciding these things.Ginetta G15 Girl said:
With an 'Electric Jet' the a/c will only go to max alpha for the conditions despite how hard the pilot pulls - if there is insufficient sky you will be a smoking hole in the ground. It won't 'know' its altitude and apply corrective action to save the a/c, it will just limit the pilot's demands to what is aerodynamically available.
Interesting info, ta, I had realised that the a/c's flight envelope cannot be exceeded (i.e. the pilots inputs can/will be rate and magnitude limited by the DFC, but i was really wondering if the a/c could basically be able to announce "ALTITUDE ALTITUDE ALTITUDE" or possibly even "EJECT EJECT EJECT" somehow ? (DFC knows max recovery altitude required, and if the plane is lower than this warning is triggered?)Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Sunday 24th April 23:45
If we assume that that incident was about as "close to crashing as is possible without crashing" then it is difficult to know at what point the pilot could have made an eject descision etc? (it certainly would have been a very low level ejection)
(i guess the simple answer is luck and experience told them to stay in and hang on, and that was actually the correct descision !!!)
Here is another example of a similar manoeuver going drastically wrong.
The pilot ejected and survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaWNj-ZkADY
The pilot ejected and survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaWNj-ZkADY
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