Not going too well for the 787 then....

[fatboy b]

Cost overruns now at $12b...


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstech...

Edited by fatboy b on Monday 20th December 07:22

[Simpo Two]

How odd; they must be packed to the rafters with Six Sigma whizzkids poking spreadsheets.

Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 20th December 10:40

[Captain Cadillac]

Interesting thing about the tails being made in Italy.... They can't make a fking power window switch and Boeing has them making a crucial structural part of an airliner?

Uh oh.

[fatboy b]

Simpo Two said:

How odd; they must be packed to the rafters with Six Sigma whizzkids poking spreadsheets.

Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 20th December 10:40

I think you'll find the same with most companies when this sort of thing happens. 6-sigma goes out the window, & management start shouting louder

[davepoth]

Generally, the 6 sigma whizzkids are in a meeting room showing a powerpoint slide that proves that 6 sigma shows that there shouldn't be a problem. And then the CEO starts throwing things.

[Simpo Two]

Thought as much.

Where's Lord Beaverbrook when you need him?

[DamienB]

Captain Cadillac said:

Interesting thing about the tails being made in Italy.... They can't make a fking power window switch and Boeing has them making a crucial structural part of an airliner?

Uh oh.

The story said:

Horizontal tails poorly built by Alenia in Italy are still being reworked. With the workmanship on the tails varying from one plane to the next, mechanics have to painstakingly customize the fixes plane by plane.

If Alfa made airliners...

[eccles]

DamienB said:

The story said:

Horizontal tails poorly built by Alenia in Italy are still being reworked. With the workmanship on the tails varying from one plane to the next, mechanics have to painstakingly customize the fixes plane by plane.

If Alfa made airliners...

This sort of thing is common where I work. Build standards are very poor, and vary to the factory drawings. Great when your repair drawing doesn't match the non standard factory bit in front of you, then the Boeing rep says that's perfectly acceptable!
I'm not sure farming bits out is that good idea if you don't have a robust quality assurance policy!

[AnotherClarkey]

eccles said:

DamienB said:

The story said:

Horizontal tails poorly built by Alenia in Italy are still being reworked. With the workmanship on the tails varying from one plane to the next, mechanics have to painstakingly customize the fixes plane by plane.

If Alfa made airliners...

This sort of thing is common where I work. Build standards are very poor, and vary to the factory drawings. Great when your repair drawing doesn't match the non standard factory bit in front of you, then the Boeing rep says that's perfectly acceptable!
I'm not sure farming bits out is that good idea if you don't have a robust quality assurance policy!

Yes, looks like a classic bit of 'blame the foreigner' by Boeing - BP stylee. It is equally possible that Boeing ballsed up the specification given to Alenia. Probably more than equal given the total fk-up fest the whole project seems to be.

[Taffer]

eccles said:

DamienB said:

The story said:

Horizontal tails poorly built by Alenia in Italy are still being reworked. With the workmanship on the tails varying from one plane to the next, mechanics have to painstakingly customize the fixes plane by plane.

If Alfa made airliners...

This sort of thing is common where I work. Build standards are very poor, and vary to the factory drawings. Great when your repair drawing doesn't match the non standard factory bit in front of you, then the Boeing rep says that's perfectly acceptable!
I'm not sure farming bits out is that good idea if you don't have a robust quality assurance policy!

Was this not one of the reasons that the Nimrod upgrade was so expensive (and late) - on pulling the airframes apart they found each one was essentially bespoke, so the work carried out on one couldn't be replicated on the next? Sad to see the programme cancelled, but I don't believe for one second that it was already paid for, when not all the airframes had been finished.

With all the delays in the 787 programme, how many airlines will shift to the Airbus A350 (first flight est. 2012)?

[eccles]

AnotherClarkey said:

eccles said:

DamienB said:

The story said:

Horizontal tails poorly built by Alenia in Italy are still being reworked. With the workmanship on the tails varying from one plane to the next, mechanics have to painstakingly customize the fixes plane by plane.

If Alfa made airliners...

This sort of thing is common where I work. Build standards are very poor, and vary to the factory drawings. Great when your repair drawing doesn't match the non standard factory bit in front of you, then the Boeing rep says that's perfectly acceptable!
I'm not sure farming bits out is that good idea if you don't have a robust quality assurance policy!

Yes, looks like a classic bit of 'blame the foreigner' by Boeing - BP stylee. It is equally possible that Boeing ballsed up the specification given to Alenia. Probably more than equal given the total fk-up fest the whole project seems to be.

I expect it was the Italians fault, they ballsed up making the Tornado wings many years ago.

The parts I work on are made in America by Boeing sub contractors,by Shorts in Northern Ireland and by Fokkers in Holland to Boeing drawings. Yet the bits of aircraft don't match what the drawing says, they've decided locally to change the type of fastener or even change the size and shape of parts!

The drawing were fine, just the locals interpreting them didn't like them and have changed the spec, often with shocking bad build standard.

[eccles]

Taffer said:

eccles said:

DamienB said:

The story said:

Horizontal tails poorly built by Alenia in Italy are still being reworked. With the workmanship on the tails varying from one plane to the next, mechanics have to painstakingly customize the fixes plane by plane.

If Alfa made airliners...

This sort of thing is common where I work. Build standards are very poor, and vary to the factory drawings. Great when your repair drawing doesn't match the non standard factory bit in front of you, then the Boeing rep says that's perfectly acceptable!
I'm not sure farming bits out is that good idea if you don't have a robust quality assurance policy!

Was this not one of the reasons that the Nimrod upgrade was so expensive (and late) - on pulling the airframes apart they found each one was essentially bespoke, so the work carried out on one couldn't be replicated on the next? Sad to see the programme cancelled, but I don't believe for one second that it was already paid for, when not all the airframes had been finished.

With all the delays in the 787 programme, how many airlines will shift to the Airbus A350 (first flight est. 2012)?

Older British aircraft weren't built in jigs, so often there was a level of individuality about them.
I worked on the RAF Dominie upgrade which involved fitting a new nose to the aircraft. Our workshops made up a bunch of kits (new frames , skins etc) but on trying fit them we found every aircraft was different, so they now have a pretty much bespoke new nose on them. This does increase the time it take to do the work by quite a margin.

[Tango13]

It's the Convair 880/990 saga all over again. Convair lost about $425million in 1962 dollars, does anybody know how this compares to or how to work this out into 2010 money?

[Chuck328]

787 - plastic fantastic.

The best Airbus, Boeing have ever built.....

[Eric Mc]

Tango13 said:

It's the Convair 880/990 saga all over again. Convair lost about $425million in 1962 dollars, does anybody know how this compares to or how to work this out into 2010 money?

At the time the Convair 880/990 fiasco was the biggest commercial disaster of all time. It effectively ended Convair (which was itself a merger of Consolidated and Vultee) as an independent company and was shortly after taken over by General Dynamics.

[evolution666]

eccles said:

AnotherClarkey said:

eccles said:

DamienB said:

The story said:

Horizontal tails poorly built by Alenia in Italy are still being reworked. With the workmanship on the tails varying from one plane to the next, mechanics have to painstakingly customize the fixes plane by plane.

If Alfa made airliners...

This sort of thing is common where I work. Build standards are very poor, and vary to the factory drawings. Great when your repair drawing doesn't match the non standard factory bit in front of you, then the Boeing rep says that's perfectly acceptable!
I'm not sure farming bits out is that good idea if you don't have a robust quality assurance policy!

Yes, looks like a classic bit of 'blame the foreigner' by Boeing - BP stylee. It is equally possible that Boeing ballsed up the specification given to Alenia. Probably more than equal given the total fk-up fest the whole project seems to be.

I expect it was the Italians fault, they ballsed up making the Tornado wings many years ago.

The parts I work on are made in America by Boeing sub contractors,by Shorts in Northern Ireland and by Fokkers in Holland to Boeing drawings. Yet the bits of aircraft don't match what the drawing says, they've decided locally to change the type of fastener or even change the size and shape of parts!

The drawing were fine, just the locals interpreting them didn't like them and have changed the spec, often with shocking bad build standard.

Well the level of QC standards must vary massively from part to part. I finished a contract earlier in the year working for GE on the nose wheel steering modules for 787. The plant mainly providing Actuation systems for a whole host of aircraft and companies (A380 and A320) Airbus and Boeing were a complete pain in our ar$es over some issues. none critical dimensional reports for one such as outer casings, oh, theres a mis match on that casing (which is going to get sprayed anyway) bin it. 6k for the matirial and probably over 70 man hrs invested in the single part already. I seen many parts thrown out to the tune equal to a good lottery win (lost sales) in 2009

[illmonkey]

Tango13 said:

It's the Convair 880/990 saga all over again. Convair lost about $425million in 1962 dollars, does anybody know how this compares to or how to work this out into 2010 money?

What cost $425,000,000 in 1962 would cost $2,981,528,933.39 in 2009.

[FourWheelDrift]

DamienB said:

Captain Cadillac said:

Interesting thing about the tails being made in Italy.... They can't make a fking power window switch and Boeing has them making a crucial structural part of an airliner?

Uh oh.

The story said:

Horizontal tails poorly built by Alenia in Italy are still being reworked. With the workmanship on the tails varying from one plane to the next, mechanics have to painstakingly customize the fixes plane by plane.

If Alfa made airliners...

They'd deliver a Spyder.

"Whaddaya mean isa no practical?"

[thatone1967]

Am I the only one who is not comfortable flying on what is effectively a 1:1 scale airfix kit?

[Eric Mc]

Wow - have Airfix started using carbon composites in their kits now.