Nimrod MRA4 to be scrapped story on BBC web site
Discussion
At least it is being made more public now that the planes have been paid for and were in the process of being built.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11...
The price of them soared mainly because the order was cut from 21 to 18 then 12 then 9 due to the cost overruns, making each aircraft £400 million each. BAe Systems and the MOD should be given a kicking for the procurement of the MRA4.
The lastest steer on it is they Government couldn't justify the running costs. The 9 aircraft were already paid for.
Reading from other forums, it may have needed a few further upgrades to bring it up to speed with the old MR2 for overland operations. The old MR2 had bits & piece bolted on which the MRA4 didn't have in it's original specifications.
The lastest steer on it is they Government couldn't justify the running costs. The 9 aircraft were already paid for.
Reading from other forums, it may have needed a few further upgrades to bring it up to speed with the old MR2 for overland operations. The old MR2 had bits & piece bolted on which the MRA4 didn't have in it's original specifications.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 31st October 19:39
I know recently that the contract was the same price but we were getting 9 aircraft instead of 21.
Same as the A400m "deal".
My dad was up at Kinloss last week and was saying the crews up there were saying it was absolutely fantastic and could have been in service 2 years ago if it wasnt for paperwork delays.
Same as the A400m "deal".
My dad was up at Kinloss last week and was saying the crews up there were saying it was absolutely fantastic and could have been in service 2 years ago if it wasnt for paperwork delays.
I think this is profusely disgusting, ONLY in the farce that is the UK would the government essentially throw 4Bn pounds up in the air and wave tally ho to it.
I actually hoped Cameron may have an ounce of common sense in that head of his when I cast my vote, clearly this is not the case, I cannot understand how the hell we can give away set amounts of money to these foreign countries for example, yet we don't have enough money to uphold a paid for defence system, it baffles and really grates me.
To see the nimrod scrapped (literally) would be heartbreaking.
I actually hoped Cameron may have an ounce of common sense in that head of his when I cast my vote, clearly this is not the case, I cannot understand how the hell we can give away set amounts of money to these foreign countries for example, yet we don't have enough money to uphold a paid for defence system, it baffles and really grates me.
To see the nimrod scrapped (literally) would be heartbreaking.
The truth of it is that the money had to be cut from somewhere.
Personally, I would not have ring-fenced the NHS or foreign aid, but there you go.
The MRA.4 project was shockingly over budget and shockingly late.
Sooner or later, as a contractor, if you continually miss budget and delivery targets, you lose the confidence of your customer, and there comes a point the customer decides not to throw good money after bad.
Yes, we are hearing from a lot on interested parties on how brilliant it would have been, had all the bugs been ironed out, but in a system that complex, without absolutely iron-clad engineering practices, fixing one bug invariably generates at least one more. If the engineering practices of the contractor had been sound from the start, we'd have a fleet of 30 MRA4's flying already. We don't.
It isn't as if on the day Cameron announced the cancellation of the project, we suddenly stopped being in the first-league long-range maritime patrol business - the problems with the earlier Nimrod (via the same contractor) had seen to that long before.
Long range ASW and - arguably - signals intelligence - are ideal for an unmanned platform role, and I suspect you will see contracts being issued for that before too long. The 'merkins have being doing just fine with long range SAR using the C130 for years, so I can't see why we couldn't.
The billions spent on the MRA.4 haven't simply been pissed up the wall - you would hope that the sensor and processing developments can be re-deployed to a prospective unmanned platform - but the airframe is 10 years late, and the name has a nasty reputation.
If I was Cameron, with Cameron's budget problems, I'd have pulled the plug on the MRA.4 as well.
Sorry.
Personally, I would not have ring-fenced the NHS or foreign aid, but there you go.
The MRA.4 project was shockingly over budget and shockingly late.
Sooner or later, as a contractor, if you continually miss budget and delivery targets, you lose the confidence of your customer, and there comes a point the customer decides not to throw good money after bad.
Yes, we are hearing from a lot on interested parties on how brilliant it would have been, had all the bugs been ironed out, but in a system that complex, without absolutely iron-clad engineering practices, fixing one bug invariably generates at least one more. If the engineering practices of the contractor had been sound from the start, we'd have a fleet of 30 MRA4's flying already. We don't.
It isn't as if on the day Cameron announced the cancellation of the project, we suddenly stopped being in the first-league long-range maritime patrol business - the problems with the earlier Nimrod (via the same contractor) had seen to that long before.
Long range ASW and - arguably - signals intelligence - are ideal for an unmanned platform role, and I suspect you will see contracts being issued for that before too long. The 'merkins have being doing just fine with long range SAR using the C130 for years, so I can't see why we couldn't.
The billions spent on the MRA.4 haven't simply been pissed up the wall - you would hope that the sensor and processing developments can be re-deployed to a prospective unmanned platform - but the airframe is 10 years late, and the name has a nasty reputation.
If I was Cameron, with Cameron's budget problems, I'd have pulled the plug on the MRA.4 as well.
Sorry.
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/press_notice_ho...
NAO major projects report, for those interested.
NAO major projects report, for those interested.
What happened to aggressive penalty clauses in the procurement contracts? The government is so concerned with skills retention in BAe & other national defence contractors that it daren't insist upon crippling penalty clauses in procurement contracts. Without such clauses these contracts amount to little more than toothless shopping lists with effectively open-ended budgets & timescales.
Exactly. The debacle over the Nimrod AEW 26 years ago was supposed to have changed the whole procurement landscape. Seems it didn't really.
Poor old Nimrod. It's name is forever tainted - even though the Nimrod MR1 and 2 were quite capable aircraft.
Poor old Nimrod. It's name is forever tainted - even though the Nimrod MR1 and 2 were quite capable aircraft.
Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 31st October 21:39
eharding said:
Personally, I would not have ring-fenced the NHS or foreign aid, but there you go.
Instead of scrapping them and then sending money we don't have to India, we could give one to India and sod the aid. Actually no, sell it at 10% off and sod the aid.So are we going to buy AWACs, or don't we need any airborne radar? Depends if you have more ships than the enemy has exocets I guess.
Eric Mc said:
Exactly. The debacle over the Nimrod AEW 26 years ago was supposed to have changed the whole procurement landscape. Seems it didn't really.
Poor old Nimrod. It's name is forever tainted - even though the Nimrod MR1 and 2 were quite capable aircraft.
This is so truePoor old Nimrod. It's name is forever tainted - even though the Nimrod MR1 and 2 were quite capable aircraft.
Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 31st October 21:39
but I'd say very capable, meself...
The MR2 was retired earlier this year, and a press release/response from the government over the last few days has said that since March they have been using a mix of Ships, C-130 and help from Partner nations to cover their maritime commitments.
They are now having to work out something long term.
From their comments it seems that they were winging it since March, relying on Partner Nations to chip in.
They now realise they cannot do this on a permanent basis so are now planning for something long term.
The Ship that caught fire off the Isle of Scilly last week was, I believe in our waters. We have a SAR commitment to 30deg west. The Sea King could just about reach it. The French had to step in and send one of their communication aircraft out there for on scene co-ordination. Luckily it was not bad weather and the Sea King was not needed.
There have also been P3 Orions up at Kinloss over the last few weeks, I believe tracking a Russian Submarine, as again we did not have anything to cover.
It has been reported the French have now offered us the use old Atlantiques.
You can imagine in 5 years time we will need the capability and will end up forking out more money on P8's (which some are questioning their suitability and range) or buying old P3 Orions.
They are now having to work out something long term.
From their comments it seems that they were winging it since March, relying on Partner Nations to chip in.
They now realise they cannot do this on a permanent basis so are now planning for something long term.
The Ship that caught fire off the Isle of Scilly last week was, I believe in our waters. We have a SAR commitment to 30deg west. The Sea King could just about reach it. The French had to step in and send one of their communication aircraft out there for on scene co-ordination. Luckily it was not bad weather and the Sea King was not needed.
There have also been P3 Orions up at Kinloss over the last few weeks, I believe tracking a Russian Submarine, as again we did not have anything to cover.
It has been reported the French have now offered us the use old Atlantiques.
You can imagine in 5 years time we will need the capability and will end up forking out more money on P8's (which some are questioning their suitability and range) or buying old P3 Orions.
Simpo Two said:
eharding said:
Personally, I would not have ring-fenced the NHS or foreign aid, but there you go.
Instead of scrapping them and then sending money we don't have to India, we could give one to India and sod the aid. Actually no, sell it at 10% off and sod the aid.So are we going to buy AWACs, or don't we need any airborne radar? Depends if you have more ships than the enemy has exocets I guess.
It now seems, for the first time since the establishment of RAF Coastal Command in the late 1930s, Britain will have no land based anti-submarine, shipping patrol aircraft.
God help the next crew of a tanker that has major trouble in the Eastern North Atlantic.
Eric Mc said:
God help the next crew of a tanker that has major trouble in the Eastern North Atlantic.
Well, He's been having to help them for a while now, because we haven't had the assets to help for a while either.See above.
It - in retrospect - was folly to think you could combine ASW, SigInt and long-range SAR in one platform.
eharding said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Explain to me why the ASW role needs to be manned.Some on PPrune reckon that it is a very long way off due to things like the number of sonobouys you would need to carry and the amount of information having to be data linked back.
Other countries seem to be progressing with the manned option. US Navy, Indian Airfore and the Australians are all getting the P8.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not yet, clearly, or they would be doing it already.UAV-ASW is certainly the way ahead though.
By removing the moral requirement to keep eleven+ souls alive at low level over the North Atlantic, in the most lumpy of weather, you remove millions - billions even - and decades from the procurement cycle.
Silly question but why cant they just park them in a hanger somewhere until sometime in the future?
Big questions I would like to know is who is going to scrap them and how much will they and the taxpayer get for scrap value.
Where do I put my name down for a part as I think the public (collectors) should be able to buy bits. But I suspect the 'classified' bulls
t will rear its ugly head and it will all by smashed up by JCB and then molten down.
And to think THEY called the NHS computer system a farce.
Disgusting to be honest that money is just numbers to them without any meaning.
Big questions I would like to know is who is going to scrap them and how much will they and the taxpayer get for scrap value.
Where do I put my name down for a part as I think the public (collectors) should be able to buy bits. But I suspect the 'classified' bulls
t will rear its ugly head and it will all by smashed up by JCB and then molten down.And to think THEY called the NHS computer system a farce.
Disgusting to be honest that money is just numbers to them without any meaning.
Morningside said:
Silly question but why cant they just park them in a hanger somewhere until sometime in the future?
Big questions I would like to know is who is going to scrap them and how much will they and the taxpayer get for scrap value.
Where do I put my name down for a part as I think the public (collectors) should be able to buy bits. But I suspect the 'classified' bullst will rear its ugly head and it will all by smashed up by JCB and then molten down.
And to think THEY called the NHS computer system a farce.
Disgusting to be honest that money is just numbers to them without any meaning.
In comparison, the scale of NHS waste is akin to building a new aircraft carrier, every year, and them ramming it into the Isle of Wight, and setting fire to it.Big questions I would like to know is who is going to scrap them and how much will they and the taxpayer get for scrap value.
Where do I put my name down for a part as I think the public (collectors) should be able to buy bits. But I suspect the 'classified' bulls
t will rear its ugly head and it will all by smashed up by JCB and then molten down.And to think THEY called the NHS computer system a farce.
Disgusting to be honest that money is just numbers to them without any meaning.
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