Which Sub-£75K Aerobatic Aircraft?
Discussion
I'm trying to solicit opinion from the aerobatic pilots about recommendations at the more affordable end of the aerobatic spectrum. I'd prefer a two-seater so I could take the Mrs on the odd x-country but if she isn't interested & I decided to go for a more affordable single-seater in the sub-£75,000 range which would you recommend. My eye is caught by the Zlin 50 LS & the Mudry Cap 231. I feel more confident about the Zlin's composite construction as I have concerns about having to store the a/c under ideal conditions of humidity/temperature in consideration of the CAP's timber construction. I don't like the looks of the Yak 52 (& 50/55) & the short TBO on Yak engines & airframe life extension work turns me off. I'd prefer something with an EASA C of A rather than a permit to fly (easier to sell & allows IFR/night flying). Competition is not the priority, but the ability to be able to perform the full advanced/unlimited repertoire (even if they're not all linked) would be good.
What sort of aeros are you doing at the moment? Do you really need the capability of something like an Extra or would something a bit less capable be alright?
I assume that you want to be the single owner, rather than part of a group?
You can tour in an Extra. It's not actually that bad for it all. Though I think you'd struggle to find one for £75K.
I love the CAP10B, however the two I flew were an absolute maintenance nightmare. I'm not sure about the 10C as I have no experience of them.
Why not csomething on a permit? IFR touring isn't much of an issue really, as you won't have all the necessary kit on board anyway. Resale of a cheaper aircraft will always be easier. CofA machines aren't worth it in my eyes anymore.
I'm sure Ed will be along soon to tell you want you really need!
I assume that you want to be the single owner, rather than part of a group?
You can tour in an Extra. It's not actually that bad for it all. Though I think you'd struggle to find one for £75K.
I love the CAP10B, however the two I flew were an absolute maintenance nightmare. I'm not sure about the 10C as I have no experience of them.
Why not csomething on a permit? IFR touring isn't much of an issue really, as you won't have all the necessary kit on board anyway. Resale of a cheaper aircraft will always be easier. CofA machines aren't worth it in my eyes anymore.
I'm sure Ed will be along soon to tell you want you really need!
Edited by IforB on Monday 7th December 14:07
The Extra is in another league for price...I'm thinking the next tier down. What might have been the hot ship 15 years ago. Somehow the Pitts doesn't do it for me & I hear they're tricky to land, don't like crosswinds & glide like a brick if they have a loss of power. Plus the odd Pitts having structural issues in the last is a cause for concern. something with a good "G" range - I always think it's a good idea to have high limits to allow for aggressive recovery die to operator error. I'd be interested know more about the CAP 10. It's part of a plan to buy a plane alone & continue to build hours, skills & improve.
Penguinracer said:
The Extra is in another league for price...I'm thinking the next tier down. What might have been the hot ship 15 years ago. Somehow the Pitts doesn't do it for me & I hear they're tricky to land, don't like crosswinds & glide like a brick if they have a loss of power. Plus the odd Pitts having structural issues in the last is a cause for concern. something with a good "G" range - I always think it's a good idea to have high limits to allow for aggressive recovery die to operator error. I'd be interested know more about the CAP 10. It's part of a plan to buy a plane alone & continue to build hours, skills & improve.
The Cap 10 was a lovely aircraft to fly, if a little underpowered in reality. The lack of a CSU didn't help. It was the first taildragger I ever flew and found it a doddle, you had good visibility over the front and it was very easy to handle on the ground.The main problems we had was the main spar delaminating, which isn't great! They had always been hangared and were in a far drier climate than ours, so I'd be wary of having one in the UK. Though I do love them to bits. Are you looking at the one that Cole have rebuilt? That's up for £70K if I remember rightly. Though the engine on that one is a bit old, so you wouldn't be able to use it for hiring out if you so wished.
There are problems with the main spar, which require a serious mod. There is also a pretty tough inspection regime that can be very onerous and expensive on the 10B. The 10C doesn't suffer from that though and I believe the Tiger Club at Headcorn have been running one for a fair while without too many problems.
There are other machines that are capable, Robin 2160, Citabria, Decathlon, Bulldog or something Russian. Yak 55 or even 52. I know you don't like the look, but they are fairly bullet-proof things. The 232 is nice, but I'm not sure if there is much support any of the Mudry machines.
I like Pitts and never found them anywhere near as tricky as people like to make out sometimes. You need to be on your toes, but they aren't a snarling beast in any way.
How many hours a year are you intending to do? If it's less than a couple of hundred, then I wouldn't bother with buying yourself, either join a group or if it's less than 1 a week, then just rent.(If you can find anything decent that is.)
Edited by IforB on Monday 7th December 14:38
Are you sure what you want actually exists? All aircraft are a compromise, I would think that anything capable of IFR/night would be to stable for serious aerobatics and vice versa.
Cristian Eagle, probably not much cop for touring and you seam to be unhappy with wooden construction.
Super champ, probably not extreme enough aeros
RV8, metal good tourer, again possibly not extreme enough.
Silence twister, Only sigal seat but supposed to be pretty hot?
You could by a couple of cassuit racers one each for you and the wife?
Bulldog?
Robin 2160, not sure if they can cope with unlimited aeros.
Cristian Eagle, probably not much cop for touring and you seam to be unhappy with wooden construction.
Super champ, probably not extreme enough aeros
RV8, metal good tourer, again possibly not extreme enough.
Silence twister, Only sigal seat but supposed to be pretty hot?
You could by a couple of cassuit racers one each for you and the wife?
Bulldog?
Robin 2160, not sure if they can cope with unlimited aeros.
Flight time will be less than 200hrs pa so that brings the economics into question. I've been out of flying for many years as life (I'm a kiwi who learnt in the South Island),work, emigration, mortgage & marriage got in the way. I promised myself that I'd return to flying if it wasn't in the aeroclub environment - too much faffing around, ancient aircraft, inflexible schedules etc. Two "hour-building" routes interest me - either get an affoordable aerobatic plane which won't bore me & do a little each week or prepare for a circumnavigation (earthrounders style). The second option is of course a very expensive approach in terms of preparation, time out, equipment. Back in NZ I was spoilt for flying environments & I took on all the Canterbury Aero Club had to offer, basic solo aeros, tail dragger, mountain flying, complex singles etc - but flying is about constantly learning, progressing & avoiding complacency. Dealing with the orographic weather conditions of the Southern Alps taught us all a VERY healthy respect for the weather. It was not unknown for a Mt Cook Airlines HS 748 to sometimes find itself in a forced descent at full power when caught in the grips of a nor'west rotor in the lee of the Alps. A southerly front blowing up from Antartica could also enliven a cross-country. I want to avoid the the monotony of straight & level in a'70's American spam can & the £1000 sandwich in Basel. The cost of flying in UK is horrifying. In NZ the numbers were similar or less but in $NZ. It's as if Europe tolerates GA under sufferance rather than viewing it as the nursury & training ground for the wider industry. That's the background.
Penguinracer said:
Flight time will be less than 200hrs pa so that brings the economics into question. I've been out of flying for many years as life (I'm a kiwi who learnt in the South Island),work, emigration, mortgage & marriage got in the way. I promised myself that I'd return to flying if it wasn't in the aeroclub environment - too much faffing around, ancient aircraft, inflexible schedules etc. Two "hour-building" routes interest me - either get an affoordable aerobatic plane which won't bore me & do a little each week or prepare for a circumnavigation (earthrounders style). The second option is of course a very expensive approach in terms of preparation, time out, equipment. Back in NZ I was spoilt for flying environments & I took on all the Canterbury Aero Club had to offer, basic solo aeros, tail dragger, mountain flying, complex singles etc - but flying is about constantly learning, progressing & avoiding complacency. Dealing with the orographic weather conditions of the Southern Alps taught us all a VERY healthy respect for the weather. It was not unknown for a Mt Cook Airlines HS 748 to sometimes find itself in a forced descent at full power when caught in the grips of a nor'west rotor in the lee of the Alps. A southerly front blowing up from Antartica could also enliven a cross-country. I want to avoid the the monotony of straight & level in a'70's American spam can & the £1000 sandwich in Basel. The cost of flying in UK is horrifying. In NZ the numbers were similar or less but in $NZ. It's as if Europe tolerates GA under sufferance rather than viewing it as the nursury & training ground for the wider industry. That's the background.
If that's what you're after, then forget the CofA route and go for something on a permit. There are some great machines on the market nowadays.Europe is awful for GA flying compared to the rest of the world. Expensive, over-regulated and you get pushed away from decent sized airfields.
An RV of some description would probably fit the bill, though you aren't supposed to use them for serious aeros here, but the rest of the world seems to think they are alright.
Penguinracer said:
I'm trying to solicit opinion from the aerobatic pilots about recommendations at the more affordable end of the aerobatic spectrum. I'd prefer a two-seater so I could take the Mrs on the odd x-country but if she isn't interested & I decided to go for a more affordable single-seater in the sub-£75,000 range which would you recommend. My eye is caught by the Zlin 50 LS & the Mudry Cap 231. I feel more confident about the Zlin's composite construction as I have concerns about having to store the a/c under ideal conditions of humidity/temperature in consideration of the CAP's timber construction. I don't like the looks of the Yak 52 (& 50/55) & the short TBO on Yak engines & airframe life extension work turns me off. I'd prefer something with an EASA C of A rather than a permit to fly (easier to sell & allows IFR/night flying). Competition is not the priority, but the ability to be able to perform the full advanced/unlimited repertoire (even if they're not all linked) would be good.
Blimey, you don't want much, do you?As has already been said - I'm not aware of anything that meets all of your requirements.
You might want to expand on what you understand to be Advanced/Unlimited aerobatics - in competition terms, there is a substantial leap between the two, both in terms of what you have to subject yourself to, and what the airframe is expected to be able to do.
If you want an IMC-capable certified 2-seater capable of flying Advanced level sequences, you want an Extra 300, and you won't get one of those on your budget, or anywhere close.
Zlins are something of an unknown quantity - I'm not aware of any on the competition circuit in the UK at the moment - a friend of mine had to dig himself out of an upturned on a few years ago when the engine self-destructed (first name Adrian, subsequently known as Adrian Mole) but that was due to a sloppy engine maintenance outfit rather than anything to do with the airframe.
Cap10/231/232 - in general, all of these are at the mercy the current trading state of the French manufacturer - the Apex group goes in and out of administration on a regular basis, and there have been long periods when its been impossible to get engineering support, leaving the operators in a state of limbo - the same applied to Robins.
Cap10 - a nice aerobatic basic trainer and tourer. The wooden-wing 10B now suffers from a number of ADs related to the wing construction, and subsequent operational G-loading restrictions. The 10C wing has a wooden/composite mixture, and doesn't suffer in the same way. When Apex are trading, they do offer the option to re-wing the 10B with the 10C wing, but the cost is pretty eye-watering. The 10C is very competitive at Standard-level aeros, but not really much above that. As IforB says, suffers from the lack of a wobbly prop. Both the B and C have the main gear bolted pretty much to the spar, so needs a delicate touch. Slippery as greased weasle droppings in the circuit.
Cap231/231EX/232 - rare as rocking-horse pooh, and outside of your budget. The 231 has a wooden wing, the 231EX and 232 have carbon wings. The 231 at Waltham has been grounded for well over a year, largely owing to the goings on at Apex, but hopefully should be flying again in the immediate future. Two Waltham mates have also just bought a 232, currently being put onto the G-reg. Still the favourite choice of the Unlimited pilots.
The various incarnations of Slingsby range from the woefully underpowered to the arguably overpowered, and the roll-rate ranges from the laughable to the slightly ponderous. I've seen Tom Cassells make a Slingsby go round an Advanced programme, but there are very few other people who could - OK for Standard, but not above. The M200 is arguably the best of the range.
Bulldogs - fatigue index meters all ticking down to zero, some more quickly than others.
Yaks - made from Girders, built like brick outhouses, stupidly expensive to run and maintain, and provide planet-killing carbon footprints. I love them, but not everyone's cup of tea. The 55 is competitive at Advanced, the 50 at Intermediate, and the 52 at Standard (I've flown ours at Intermediate, once - much hilarity ensued). All of them within your budget, but really need to be syndicated for those days when the eye-watering bills arrive.
Extra 230 / Lazer - wooden wings, but very capable and competitive at Advanced. Edge 360s (a Lazer with a carbon wing) might *just* be in your budget range, but good luck trying to find one. All of them available on a Permit.
One Design - basically a monoplane Pitts - uses a wooden spar, but having seen how thick the spar is, probably as strong as a carbon wing. Phenomenal roll rate. There are only a few around, and generally the owners hang onto them.
Robins - nice visibility, OK for the occasional loop and swoop, but that's it. Tourers with attitude.
Decathlon/Citabria - functional as basic aerobatic trainers, occasionally seen on the competition circuit at Standard, but not as serious contenders.
Pitts - despite your misgivings, this is the place you want to be. An tidy S2A pretty much covers 80% of your requirements, and is in the right price range. There are Pitts pilots, and there is everyone else. You owe it to yourself to get some Pitts time. Yes, I have yet to meet a Pitts driver who will approach a narrow tarmac runway in a sporting crosswind with anything other than a healthy degree of trepidation, but in the end, just grow some and get on with it. The Eagle will do 80% of what an S2A will do, if you can't fit in the S2, or if you're determined to have something on a Permit. Depending on where your based, you might be able to hire an S2, in which case buy a single-seat S1 (you could get a very nice S1 on half your budget) and just hire the S2 when you need a second seat.
The British Aerobatics Association website (http://www.aerobatics.org.uk) is an excellent resource - a number of aircraft for sale there as well.
You may also want to consider if outright ownership is the way to go, vs. buying one or more shares - far more affordable, and unlike shares in touring types, contention for use isn't usually an issue.
Edited by eharding on Monday 7th December 18:16
What eharding says. 
Also look at your utilisation. If you're going to fly a couple of hours a week every week (note hours, not flights), it may be worth buying an aeroplane outright. If you're going to fly a couple of hours a month (probably four aerobatic flights), it isn't worth buying outright unless you have money to burn. However, your requirement for advanced/unlimited on a C of A with an IMC capability means you need an Extra 300, which is out of your budget.
Alternatively, look at buying a share. Extra 300 shares are rare but do come up occasionally. £60k ish would get you 50% although if I were in your position, I would consider buying a quarter share (£30k ish) in an Extra 300 and a share in a decent tourer (Cessna 182 for example), or even just rent a tourer when required. It depends whether your Mrs likes aeros or not. Mrs JW911 doesn't so there's little point paying for aerobatic fuel burn (60-80 litres per hour in a Yak52, a bit less in an Extra) when 20 litres per hour will take her for lunch.
ATB
JW911 (Yak owner who is p*ss*d off as the weather looks good for aeros this morning and I have a cold)
Also look at your utilisation. If you're going to fly a couple of hours a week every week (note hours, not flights), it may be worth buying an aeroplane outright. If you're going to fly a couple of hours a month (probably four aerobatic flights), it isn't worth buying outright unless you have money to burn. However, your requirement for advanced/unlimited on a C of A with an IMC capability means you need an Extra 300, which is out of your budget.
Alternatively, look at buying a share. Extra 300 shares are rare but do come up occasionally. £60k ish would get you 50% although if I were in your position, I would consider buying a quarter share (£30k ish) in an Extra 300 and a share in a decent tourer (Cessna 182 for example), or even just rent a tourer when required. It depends whether your Mrs likes aeros or not. Mrs JW911 doesn't so there's little point paying for aerobatic fuel burn (60-80 litres per hour in a Yak52, a bit less in an Extra) when 20 litres per hour will take her for lunch.
ATB
JW911 (Yak owner who is p*ss*d off as the weather looks good for aeros this morning and I have a cold)
Edited by JW911 on Tuesday 8th December 08:39
Thanks gentlemen, you've been really helpful. You've swayed me in the direction of either a share in a two-place or a Pitts S-1 (half the price of the Zlin 50 LS) & hiring a tourer or two-place aero a/c when required. I can't envisage Mrs Penguin being that into aeros, few people are - flyers or non-flyers alike. IforB's comment about cheaper a/c being more saleable is an important one. Thank you eharding - your market summary was really insightful. I can justify the capital outlay to myself if it's similar to a good sportscar, although running costs will be considerably higher, but safety first - how much is your neck worth? If I was a wealthy man that Bear would be on my list, even though its more suited to less aggressive/technical aeros with it's +6G limit. There are three ex-Red Bull Zlin 50 LS's for sale in the Czech Republic - they would really interest me if they weren't almost twice the price of a Pitts S-1. I assume the Pitts laminated wooden spar doesn't give any problems or is it wrapped in composite?
Penguinracer said:
I assume the Pitts laminated wooden spar doesn't give any problems or is it wrapped in composite?
Assuming the Pitts has been hangared, they're not prone to rot. What can be an issue is if the aircraft has an auxiliary fuel tank in the upper wing which has been used as a smoke oil tank - if diesel has been used, and managed to leak from the tank into the woodwork, then problems can occur.As with anything though, it pays to have whatever you intend buying inspected thoroughly if you're not completely sure of the provenance. ATS at Booker would be my preferred engineering resource for anything aerobatic.
Thanks eharding. While my heart says Zlin 50 LS (three are for sale in Bulgaria) my budget says Pitts, preferrably with the symmetrical wing, quad ailerons & CS prop - so an S-1T or S-1 SS. Also thank you for the recommendation of ATS for an inspection. The search may take some time but I'm in no particular hurry.
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