Yacht depreciation - how does that work?
Discussion
Only wistful thinking at the mo' but how does the pricing of secondhand boats work - specifically, say, yachts in the 35' - 40' range?
When a new car comes out there are obviously those who buy new and those who think, sweet, give it 3 or 4 years and I'll pick one up for around half of the showroom price. A cursory perusal of a couple of mags and few websites would suggest that nautical economics is somewhat different. To my novice eye, a boat that might have had a £100k new book price in the year (early) two-thousand-and-something still seems to command an asking price of most of that now. Likewise, the pricing of boats now 15 years old is hardly cheap compared with the pitiful value a 15 year old car would have retained on it's original price.
Only sailed a couple of times but loved it and am thinking maybe RYA courses in the future with an idea on maybe owning something one day...
When a new car comes out there are obviously those who buy new and those who think, sweet, give it 3 or 4 years and I'll pick one up for around half of the showroom price. A cursory perusal of a couple of mags and few websites would suggest that nautical economics is somewhat different. To my novice eye, a boat that might have had a £100k new book price in the year (early) two-thousand-and-something still seems to command an asking price of most of that now. Likewise, the pricing of boats now 15 years old is hardly cheap compared with the pitiful value a 15 year old car would have retained on it's original price.
Only sailed a couple of times but loved it and am thinking maybe RYA courses in the future with an idea on maybe owning something one day...
Having bought ans sold a couple I can honestly tell you I have no idea. A few pointers though. A high quality boat made by a low volume producer - I'm thinking Hallberg Rassy, Malo, and companies like that will hold their value well and people will pay the asking price. For the mass produced boats like Bavaria and Jenneau/Beneteau, you'll find that second hand asking prices remain high, but what people end up paying for them is another matter. I know people with Bavarias who can't give them away.
Just a word of advice. Don't under any circumstances buy a boat after being smitten by the sport having done a one week sailing course. You will in all likelihood end up with the wrong boat and it will cost you a fortune to change to the right one. Brokerage costs are high for the seller - used to be from about 6% up plus the dreaded. Also bear in mind that it costs a fortune to keep a boat. for a 35 footer you are probably talking about 5 grand a year upwards in or near to the Solent, and you can probably count on spending that much again on maintenance and 'toys'. I used to keep records, bit I stopped. I was worried the wife would find out how much the 'toy' actually cost to run.
Just a word of advice. Don't under any circumstances buy a boat after being smitten by the sport having done a one week sailing course. You will in all likelihood end up with the wrong boat and it will cost you a fortune to change to the right one. Brokerage costs are high for the seller - used to be from about 6% up plus the dreaded. Also bear in mind that it costs a fortune to keep a boat. for a 35 footer you are probably talking about 5 grand a year upwards in or near to the Solent, and you can probably count on spending that much again on maintenance and 'toys'. I used to keep records, bit I stopped. I was worried the wife would find out how much the 'toy' actually cost to run.
My parents paid £165k for a 38ft Westerly Oceanranger in 1997, its probably worthk about 80-90k depending upon who wants one and how many are for sale. Ours was one of the last made, No80 out of only 85ish.
Westerly have gone bust so no more, as has been said above the North European made yachts hold their value well, as do Swan and Oysters however they don't make anything in that lenght anymore.
The french and german boats are all pretty cheap and good valve but probably not as seaworthy as some of those mentioned above.
Make sure you get a survey done!
Westerly have gone bust so no more, as has been said above the North European made yachts hold their value well, as do Swan and Oysters however they don't make anything in that lenght anymore.
The french and german boats are all pretty cheap and good valve but probably not as seaworthy as some of those mentioned above.
Make sure you get a survey done!
Thanks one and all. A quick bit of research soon confirmed that upkeep and mooring would indeed be a far from trivial annual consideration.
My two sailing weekends so far have both been on Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40's. As mentioned, I enjoyed these a lot. On the strength of that and, for the simple reason of having a good day out, we then had a family trip to the Southampton IBS last year too.
It was about then that I discovered that unfortunately boats are like wine, cars and other of life's pleasures: once the initial appeal takes hold, it's not long before you appreciate the *REALLY* nice stuff!
So, after the show my Aston DBS desktop background was sacked and replaced by the impossibly gorgeous thing below
... which I've now realised will probably depreciate like a Picasso!
My two sailing weekends so far have both been on Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40's. As mentioned, I enjoyed these a lot. On the strength of that and, for the simple reason of having a good day out, we then had a family trip to the Southampton IBS last year too.
It was about then that I discovered that unfortunately boats are like wine, cars and other of life's pleasures: once the initial appeal takes hold, it's not long before you appreciate the *REALLY* nice stuff!
So, after the show my Aston DBS desktop background was sacked and replaced by the impossibly gorgeous thing below
... which I've now realised will probably depreciate like a Picasso!
Edited by DaveR on Thursday 16th April 19:51
Our typical annual cost are 38ft
Mooring previously at MDL Ocean Village £6500
Engine service / winterisation £400
Insurance £350
Sails and stuff £300
Diesel £150
Gas £20
Consumable, batteries, flares, fire extingushers, lifejacket refills £100 ave year.
Other mooring costs £300-400 yr.
Then you have random things like, yacht electronics going, new radio vhfs, battery chargers, batteries, steering cables, stern glands, fenders, any old crap they are selling in a chandlery etc etc etc.
Much cheaper to get your tickets and charter or find someone who trusts you with their boat. Although you cannot technically pay them anything unless the boat is coded. Only family friends and good friends class as non passengers!
Get one of these.
http://www.mondialbroker.com/detail.taf?B=190901
Mooring previously at MDL Ocean Village £6500
Engine service / winterisation £400
Insurance £350
Sails and stuff £300
Diesel £150
Gas £20
Consumable, batteries, flares, fire extingushers, lifejacket refills £100 ave year.
Other mooring costs £300-400 yr.
Then you have random things like, yacht electronics going, new radio vhfs, battery chargers, batteries, steering cables, stern glands, fenders, any old crap they are selling in a chandlery etc etc etc.
Much cheaper to get your tickets and charter or find someone who trusts you with their boat. Although you cannot technically pay them anything unless the boat is coded. Only family friends and good friends class as non passengers!
Get one of these.
http://www.mondialbroker.com/detail.taf?B=190901
Edited by ALawson on Thursday 16th April 22:14
ALawson said:
Our typical annual cost are 38ft
Mooring previously at MDL Ocean Village £6500
Engine service / winterisation £400
Insurance £350
Sails and stuff £300
Diesel £150
Gas £20
Consumable, batteries, flares, fire extingushers, lifejacket refills £100 ave year.
Other mooring costs £300-400 yr.
Then you have random things like, yacht electronics going, new radio vhfs, battery chargers, batteries, steering cables, stern glands, fenders, any old crap they are selling in a chandlery etc etc etc.
Much cheaper to get your tickets and charter or find someone who trusts you with their boat. Although you cannot technically pay them anything unless the boat is coded. Only family friends and good friends class as non passengers!
Get one of these.
http://www.mondialbroker.com/detail.taf?B=190901
One thing that struck me immediately is that you haven't put in a cost for a lift/scrub/antifoul/polish.........Mooring previously at MDL Ocean Village £6500
Engine service / winterisation £400
Insurance £350
Sails and stuff £300
Diesel £150
Gas £20
Consumable, batteries, flares, fire extingushers, lifejacket refills £100 ave year.
Other mooring costs £300-400 yr.
Then you have random things like, yacht electronics going, new radio vhfs, battery chargers, batteries, steering cables, stern glands, fenders, any old crap they are selling in a chandlery etc etc etc.
Much cheaper to get your tickets and charter or find someone who trusts you with their boat. Although you cannot technically pay them anything unless the boat is coded. Only family friends and good friends class as non passengers!
Get one of these.
http://www.mondialbroker.com/detail.taf?B=190901
Edited by ALawson on Thursday 16th April 22:14
That's another grand. Or at least it is for me.
Costs are highly dependant on where you are based though and how much you are willing to do yourself. This is for a 27ft yacht:
Where we are, a swinging mooring costs £200 a year including winter storage ashore. Launching and recovery is a £10 donation to the local air ambulance.
We do all the maintenance ourselves, including a complete engine rebuild and replacing the saildrive seal etc.
Insurance is about £200. Fuel usage is hardly anything (less thant 1 litre an hour), and other consumables are pretty variable depending on what breaks during the season.
It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, but there are compromises to be made - we can't just walk onto the boat from a pontoon and have to use a tender for example.
Where we are, a swinging mooring costs £200 a year including winter storage ashore. Launching and recovery is a £10 donation to the local air ambulance.
We do all the maintenance ourselves, including a complete engine rebuild and replacing the saildrive seal etc.
Insurance is about £200. Fuel usage is hardly anything (less thant 1 litre an hour), and other consumables are pretty variable depending on what breaks during the season.
It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, but there are compromises to be made - we can't just walk onto the boat from a pontoon and have to use a tender for example.
tank slapper said:
Costs are highly dependant on where you are based though and how much you are willing to do yourself. This is for a 27ft yacht:
Where we are, a swinging mooring costs £200 a year including winter storage ashore. Launching and recovery is a £10 donation to the local air ambulance.
We do all the maintenance ourselves, including a complete engine rebuild and replacing the saildrive seal etc.
Insurance is about £200. Fuel usage is hardly anything (less thant 1 litre an hour), and other consumables are pretty variable depending on what breaks during the season.
It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, but there are compromises to be made - we can't just walk onto the boat from a pontoon and have to use a tender for example.
The OP's profile says he lives in Hampshire. Chances of getting a swinging mooring anywhere within a sensible driving distance for £200 are, I would think, limited.Where we are, a swinging mooring costs £200 a year including winter storage ashore. Launching and recovery is a £10 donation to the local air ambulance.
We do all the maintenance ourselves, including a complete engine rebuild and replacing the saildrive seal etc.
Insurance is about £200. Fuel usage is hardly anything (less thant 1 litre an hour), and other consumables are pretty variable depending on what breaks during the season.
It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, but there are compromises to be made - we can't just walk onto the boat from a pontoon and have to use a tender for example.
I think costs start to go up exponentially once you get past 30 feet, and then get silly once you get to 40 feet. A launch and recover for a 30 footer just doesn't get done without an 'effing huge crane, and even in one of the cheapest place I know on the south coast - Gosport Boatyard - you are talking a couple of hundred quid just for a lift/hold in slings/scrub and re-launch.
It's all very well to do your own maintenance - and I did most of mine - but what you save in paying someone else to do the work you lose in terms of the holiday you lose doing it. I used to reckon on needing a full three days to antifoul, polish my last boat, which was a 34 footer. And even doing the work myself, I normally ended up with a bill for £6-700 for the lift, block down/ re-launch because invariably there was something I needed a shipwright to sort out - new Cutless bearings, rudder bearings, that sort of thing. Owning a boat is the easiest way I know to make yourself poor! Apart possibly from getting divorced.
Incredible Sulk said:
The OP's profile says he lives in Hampshire. Chances of getting a swinging mooring anywhere within a sensible driving distance for £200 are, I would think, limited.
I think costs start to go up exponentially once you get past 30 feet, and then get silly once you get to 40 feet. A launch and recover for a 30 footer just doesn't get done without an 'effing huge crane, and even in one of the cheapest place I know on the south coast - Gosport Boatyard - you are talking a couple of hundred quid just for a lift/hold in slings/scrub and re-launch.
It's all very well to do your own maintenance - and I did most of mine - but what you save in paying someone else to do the work you lose in terms of the holiday you lose doing it. I used to reckon on needing a full three days to antifoul, polish my last boat, which was a 34 footer. And even doing the work myself, I normally ended up with a bill for £6-700 for the lift, block down/ re-launch because invariably there was something I needed a shipwright to sort out - new Cutless bearings, rudder bearings, that sort of thing. Owning a boat is the easiest way I know to make yourself poor! Apart possibly from getting divorced.
I was just offering some contrast. It depends how you treat the maintenance part of things. I quite enjoy doing it and as such don't really see it as a cost, and am probably willing to undertake jobs that a lot of people wouldn't want to.I think costs start to go up exponentially once you get past 30 feet, and then get silly once you get to 40 feet. A launch and recover for a 30 footer just doesn't get done without an 'effing huge crane, and even in one of the cheapest place I know on the south coast - Gosport Boatyard - you are talking a couple of hundred quid just for a lift/hold in slings/scrub and re-launch.
It's all very well to do your own maintenance - and I did most of mine - but what you save in paying someone else to do the work you lose in terms of the holiday you lose doing it. I used to reckon on needing a full three days to antifoul, polish my last boat, which was a 34 footer. And even doing the work myself, I normally ended up with a bill for £6-700 for the lift, block down/ re-launch because invariably there was something I needed a shipwright to sort out - new Cutless bearings, rudder bearings, that sort of thing. Owning a boat is the easiest way I know to make yourself poor! Apart possibly from getting divorced.
forecasting depreciation is a bit of a black art as it is very closely linked to the economy and more importantly - the strength (or weakness) of your currency.
at the moment, the uk is one of the cheapest places in the world to buy quality yachts, thanks to the weak pound. despite the fact that we are supposed to be in depression, i can honestly say that i have never (in approx 12yrs of being a yacht broker) been so busy (i'm actually running out of yachts to sell).
the demand from overseas, coupled to the fact that many people with 'safe' capital are not enjoying the returns from keeping the money in the bank (so are buying boats to get some enjoyment out of their hard-earnt), is helping to prop up the market... prices are pretty static at the moment for the sector i deal with (quality sailing yachts from approx £80-£450k... hr's, najads, malos, oyster, swan et al), so don't go hoping for a massive bargain!
the motor boat market is a bit of a differnt kettle of fish, but as i don't really deal with them, i won't pass too much comment.
if you want to sniff out a good deal on a high-end cruising yacht, my best advice is to head after something that is mainly favoured by the UK-buyer... that way, you shouldn't be up against too much competition from Euro-land or those with dollars or krona in their pocket... something like a Bowman 40, starlight 35/39, westerly or a rival are probably the cheapest they have ever been right now... oddly enough, maxi yachts also seem to be good value, as for some reason, the swedes don't tend to buy them back (unlike the rassys, najads, malos, sweden yachts etc).
alternatively,,, just give me a call during the week and i can sort you out!... i'm not too difficult to track down! (i sit in a bid office overlooking our own marina, in our boatyard next to the lyington river... any more of a hint, and i might get my wings clipped for touting for business!)
alex
at the moment, the uk is one of the cheapest places in the world to buy quality yachts, thanks to the weak pound. despite the fact that we are supposed to be in depression, i can honestly say that i have never (in approx 12yrs of being a yacht broker) been so busy (i'm actually running out of yachts to sell).
the demand from overseas, coupled to the fact that many people with 'safe' capital are not enjoying the returns from keeping the money in the bank (so are buying boats to get some enjoyment out of their hard-earnt), is helping to prop up the market... prices are pretty static at the moment for the sector i deal with (quality sailing yachts from approx £80-£450k... hr's, najads, malos, oyster, swan et al), so don't go hoping for a massive bargain!
the motor boat market is a bit of a differnt kettle of fish, but as i don't really deal with them, i won't pass too much comment.
if you want to sniff out a good deal on a high-end cruising yacht, my best advice is to head after something that is mainly favoured by the UK-buyer... that way, you shouldn't be up against too much competition from Euro-land or those with dollars or krona in their pocket... something like a Bowman 40, starlight 35/39, westerly or a rival are probably the cheapest they have ever been right now... oddly enough, maxi yachts also seem to be good value, as for some reason, the swedes don't tend to buy them back (unlike the rassys, najads, malos, sweden yachts etc).
alternatively,,, just give me a call during the week and i can sort you out!... i'm not too difficult to track down! (i sit in a bid office overlooking our own marina, in our boatyard next to the lyington river... any more of a hint, and i might get my wings clipped for touting for business!)
alex
Paddy_n_Murphy said:
littlegreenfairy said:
OP - I don't suppose a Jeanneau 43 DS would be something you'd consider looking at? Currently lying on the South Coast (Dorset) with one previous owner who was OCD about keeping it in tip top condition?
If so, I may just know someone who has one
If so, I may just know someone who has one
not a two Cabin layout is it ?
linky..... ?
I've PMed you the link
thats the badger.
Edited by littlegreenfairy on Tuesday 21st April 21:28
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