Anyone following the Vendee?
Discussion
Hey all, anyone here following the Vendee this time round?
Has so far been interesting, with a lot of dismastings and retirements from a big fleet of 30+ starters. But check this out:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2008/yann%20r...
That is Yann Eliès being rescued from his boat Generali. He broke his femur (thats the thigh!) on his FOREDECK 3 days ago. Managed to make it back down below (how the hell did he manage that?!) and lay at his nav station for more than 3 days before being rescued. Now that is someone I have a lot of respect for...
Has so far been interesting, with a lot of dismastings and retirements from a big fleet of 30+ starters. But check this out:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2008/yann%20r...
That is Yann Eliès being rescued from his boat Generali. He broke his femur (thats the thigh!) on his FOREDECK 3 days ago. Managed to make it back down below (how the hell did he manage that?!) and lay at his nav station for more than 3 days before being rescued. Now that is someone I have a lot of respect for...
All these breakages are giving the sport a bad name, I am still not sure if it is down to crap design of to much reliance on auto pilots during big wind and seas.
Got to admit it must have been a big wave he came of to snap his femur on the pushpit, the amount of water washing down the decks probably aided his crawl back to the cabin.
There are some epic stories from this race over the years, I recall on chap whos batteries went flat and couldn't start his engine. So he rigged up some pullies and attached a lenght of rope around a shaft on the engine, the other end he attached to the boom. He gybed the boat which pulled the rope, turned the engine and got it started..
Got to admit it must have been a big wave he came of to snap his femur on the pushpit, the amount of water washing down the decks probably aided his crawl back to the cabin.
There are some epic stories from this race over the years, I recall on chap whos batteries went flat and couldn't start his engine. So he rigged up some pullies and attached a lenght of rope around a shaft on the engine, the other end he attached to the boom. He gybed the boat which pulled the rope, turned the engine and got it started..
ALawson said:
I recall on chap whos batteries went flat and couldn't start his engine. So he rigged up some pullies and attached a lenght of rope around a shaft on the engine, the other end he attached to the boom. He gybed the boat which pulled the rope, turned the engine and got it started..
Yes, I remember that, got asn idea it was Mike Golding.They are still not building the boats tough enough.
Sam Davies seems to have become the star of this race.
Agreed...it's carnage. They are not building the boats tough enough...seems that designers are forgetting the "to finish first, first you must finish" mantra. What is the point of having a brand new 60 if it falls apart at the first opportunity and gets whupped by a 10 year old boat that clearly was built right and your new one is then not "competitive" next time round? I really feel for Alex on Hugo Boss but limping back with a few metres of UD carbon trailing in your wake is not a good advert.
They need to tighten the rules up IMHO, these boats are travelling at over 30 knots now and need to be able to survive a collision with an object. You are not going to stop failures completely (I think Mike Golding was fairly unlucky with his rig) but sometime soon there is going to be a fatality if things are not put in perspective a little.
No I don't have solo ocean racing experience but on a non stop RTW race of that distance and taking that course, you are 100% certain to experience horrific weather and the boats should take it...some damage is inevitable but the attrition rate is just far too high.
In these times (and with the Russians now out of the VOR due to lack of sponsorship money) some marketing men are going to chat to elf & safety men, look at the stats, do the sums, and work out that sponsoring VG entries carries to much risk of a "failure" tag or worse still a "lost at sea" tag and they'll pull the plug on putting their names on boats which compete in an event which is a fascinating race using the most amazing of all modern racing classes.
Just my 2p...
They need to tighten the rules up IMHO, these boats are travelling at over 30 knots now and need to be able to survive a collision with an object. You are not going to stop failures completely (I think Mike Golding was fairly unlucky with his rig) but sometime soon there is going to be a fatality if things are not put in perspective a little.
No I don't have solo ocean racing experience but on a non stop RTW race of that distance and taking that course, you are 100% certain to experience horrific weather and the boats should take it...some damage is inevitable but the attrition rate is just far too high.
In these times (and with the Russians now out of the VOR due to lack of sponsorship money) some marketing men are going to chat to elf & safety men, look at the stats, do the sums, and work out that sponsoring VG entries carries to much risk of a "failure" tag or worse still a "lost at sea" tag and they'll pull the plug on putting their names on boats which compete in an event which is a fascinating race using the most amazing of all modern racing classes.
Just my 2p...
You can't blame Alex's boat on poor design or not built to be strong enough for the race, you have the French fishing boat that rammed him before the start for that retirement on Hugo Boss.
As for built for the job, Open 60's are the F1 of the seas and as such they are engineered to do a job, but not carry excess weight. It's down to the designers and skippers to come up with the balance and decide what level of risk they are willing to take, sometimes they underestimate, but a 10 year old boat will not win however good it is, look at Steve, he's a top sailor but an old boat and can't keep pace with the new boats out there and still isn't guaranteed to finish.
As for over reliance on autopilot comment, you've never sailed single handed or used the latest autopilots out there, they can out helm 99.9% of people and take into account pitch and roll of the boat, wind speeds, direction, boat speed, speed over the ground, rig loads, rudder load and work out how best to drive the boat, without them, an Open 60 would require another 3 people on board to sail 24/7!
Open 60's are amazing to drive and I have every admiration for anyone who can keep pushing one for weeks on end, the risk and gear failure is part of the game. You just have to remember that no one can build a boat that is Ocean proof, ever, racing one makes that even more difficult! You just have to respect the seas and make the best of it and decide on your own what risks you are willing to take.
As for built for the job, Open 60's are the F1 of the seas and as such they are engineered to do a job, but not carry excess weight. It's down to the designers and skippers to come up with the balance and decide what level of risk they are willing to take, sometimes they underestimate, but a 10 year old boat will not win however good it is, look at Steve, he's a top sailor but an old boat and can't keep pace with the new boats out there and still isn't guaranteed to finish.
As for over reliance on autopilot comment, you've never sailed single handed or used the latest autopilots out there, they can out helm 99.9% of people and take into account pitch and roll of the boat, wind speeds, direction, boat speed, speed over the ground, rig loads, rudder load and work out how best to drive the boat, without them, an Open 60 would require another 3 people on board to sail 24/7!
Open 60's are amazing to drive and I have every admiration for anyone who can keep pushing one for weeks on end, the risk and gear failure is part of the game. You just have to remember that no one can build a boat that is Ocean proof, ever, racing one makes that even more difficult! You just have to respect the seas and make the best of it and decide on your own what risks you are willing to take.
Speedyellow...unless I have not kept up with developments after Boss made it back, it was my understanding that the fishing boat incident was nothing to do with the retirement...they repaired Boss properly following the fishing boat incident and Alex started, but it was a collision with another object that led to what looked like serious delamination and forced retirement. If they had not repaired it properly and sent him on his way to then suffer structural issues because they had not spotted additional damage then that's an even worse crime.
I would love to sail an Open 60 but I would never like to do the Vendee and I have huge, immense respect for anyone who sails it. However when the "compromised" boats start, a team needs to be aware that even if they are happy with the level of design risk, it's almost invariably going to be someone else (navy, chopper pilot or another competitor) risking thier life to pick them up if the s
t really hits the fan.
The boats are failing compartitively early into the race. Must be heartbreaking to have waited years to compete, ade enormous sacrifices to be on the start line and then have to give up so soon becasue something has broken. I do wonder if people think that next time they will either over engineer the boats more or not push as hard...you could have the slowest strongest boat in the fleet but still be assured of a good position this time round (assuming yours holds together) simply due to retirements.
I would love to sail an Open 60 but I would never like to do the Vendee and I have huge, immense respect for anyone who sails it. However when the "compromised" boats start, a team needs to be aware that even if they are happy with the level of design risk, it's almost invariably going to be someone else (navy, chopper pilot or another competitor) risking thier life to pick them up if the s
t really hits the fan.The boats are failing compartitively early into the race. Must be heartbreaking to have waited years to compete, ade enormous sacrifices to be on the start line and then have to give up so soon becasue something has broken. I do wonder if people think that next time they will either over engineer the boats more or not push as hard...you could have the slowest strongest boat in the fleet but still be assured of a good position this time round (assuming yours holds together) simply due to retirements.
The fact is that the Auto pilots have increased in hugely in the last 8-12 years and as such a lot of the sailors actually doing these races probably wouldn't or couldn't have done them when you were relying on a generation 1 autopilot or windvane self steering. I have enormous respect for the competitors and the speeds that they sail in the oceans that they choose to do them in.
The fact is that a 10 year old boat is reasonable competitive with other similar boats, but it was built from another age compared with design philosophy of the latest boats.
Who actually knows what went wrong with Hugo Boss, some will think that the damage is a result of the initial french fishing boat contact, others will think that it was due a collision with a floating object. For sure if it had been a challenger boat it would have simply been a bit of a dent between the ribs!
You only need to look at the G1 V70's to see how much they underestimated the loadings on the keelboxes at the bombdoors and other areas, and that was with design using the latest 3d/4d modelling and Finite Element Analysis modelling etc. You do actually have to build they boats and them give them a good hammering to validate the drawing board or computer output. I am sure that both Mike and Alex will rebound stronger and better equipeed in there next attempt in 4 years, hopefully the redesign of compontents, hulls and spars will be checked out with extensive testing in the southern ocean prior to racing.
Ecover was always in the riskiest zone down south as it is well known that Mike likes to put the footdown when conditions get bad. All we can say is that the rest of the fleet will have a interesting sail to the finish!
The fact is that a 10 year old boat is reasonable competitive with other similar boats, but it was built from another age compared with design philosophy of the latest boats.
Who actually knows what went wrong with Hugo Boss, some will think that the damage is a result of the initial french fishing boat contact, others will think that it was due a collision with a floating object. For sure if it had been a challenger boat it would have simply been a bit of a dent between the ribs!
You only need to look at the G1 V70's to see how much they underestimated the loadings on the keelboxes at the bombdoors and other areas, and that was with design using the latest 3d/4d modelling and Finite Element Analysis modelling etc. You do actually have to build they boats and them give them a good hammering to validate the drawing board or computer output. I am sure that both Mike and Alex will rebound stronger and better equipeed in there next attempt in 4 years, hopefully the redesign of compontents, hulls and spars will be checked out with extensive testing in the southern ocean prior to racing.
Ecover was always in the riskiest zone down south as it is well known that Mike likes to put the footdown when conditions get bad. All we can say is that the rest of the fleet will have a interesting sail to the finish!
SpeedYellow said:
Open 60's are the F1 of the seas
IMO they are less F1, and more like Paris-Dakar prototypes. Whereas F1 are highly optimised to run at 100% for short periods in a controlled environment, an IMOCA 60 (although very fast and highly technical) is raced short-handed, without outside assistance and over near 3-month period in some of the most hostile seas on earth. As Brian Thompson put it, his 60 has a larger mainsail than a Volvo Ocean Race VO70, but he has only 10% of the crew to handle it.By definition, being prototypes they are relatively untested and naturally with each new generation of boats the teams and designers are trying to add performance. This time round the power has increased hugely, and this is almost certainly contributing to the retirements, but a 50% attrition rate is not unusual for this ultimate sailing challenge.
What a great race it's been, unbelievably competitive with boats crossing each other in the Southern Ocean after over a month of racing. As always there are desperate disappointments for many as gear failures force retirements, but this is a mechanical sport. Hats off to all who complete the course
BTW the guy who 'bump-started' his engine in the 2000 race was Mich Desjoyeaux (not Mike Golding). He went on to win and he's currently leading this one having returned to port after the start and lost 40 hrs. The man's a legend
And then their boat dismasted...
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144...
It appears more to be about who has a boat that can last the distance, rather than a race..
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144...
It appears more to be about who has a boat that can last the distance, rather than a race..
Shrimper said:
And then their boat dismasted...
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144...
It appears more to be about who has a boat that can last the distance, rather than a race..
I think there needs to be a bit of thought into the boats before the next race....http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144...
It appears more to be about who has a boat that can last the distance, rather than a race..
Huntsman said:
Shrimper said:
And then their boat dismasted...
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144...
It appears more to be about who has a boat that can last the distance, rather than a race..
I think there needs to be a bit of thought into the boats before the next race....http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144...
It appears more to be about who has a boat that can last the distance, rather than a race..
In this scenario it seems harsh to criticise the boat's design, and picking Jean up under sail due to an engine failure is a remarkable piece of seamanship in the conditions.
The rig was heeled over 30 degrees while he winched his friend aboard, but they quickly gibed to swing it back upright and made a temporary lashing to secure it. Unfortunately this repair gave way just as they were reaching shelter round Cape Horn to work on a more permanent solution.
Al W said:
Huntsman said:
Shrimper said:
And then their boat dismasted...
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144...
It appears more to be about who has a boat that can last the distance, rather than a race..
I think there needs to be a bit of thought into the boats before the next race....http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144...
It appears more to be about who has a boat that can last the distance, rather than a race..
In this scenario it seems harsh to criticise the boat's design, and picking Jean up under sail due to an engine failure is a remarkable piece of seamanship in the conditions.
The rig was heeled over 30 degrees while he winched his friend aboard, but they quickly gibed to swing it back upright and made a temporary lashing to secure it. Unfortunately this repair gave way just as they were reaching shelter round Cape Horn to work on a more permanent solution.
Its demolition derby!
Oh I agree, I wasnt disputing the great seamanship abilities that were shown in the rescue, and I did read in an earlier report that the boat was damaged during the rescue.
But if you look at the big picture, less than half the starters are still racing.
A lot of respect to Riou for his efforts in rescuing Le Cam, and its great to see Sam Davies doing us proud in 5th at the moment
But if you look at the big picture, less than half the starters are still racing.
A lot of respect to Riou for his efforts in rescuing Le Cam, and its great to see Sam Davies doing us proud in 5th at the moment
Huntsman said:
Yes, indeed in the specific instance of PRB's rig you are quite right, but look at the wider picture.
Its demolition derby!
No change there then... While this event has more retirements than average, they have had harsher conditions in the South than for the last couple of events. The retirements have been for many reasons (big and small), and some would not have occurred in a fully-crewed race simply because there are always hands on deck. All bar 2 retirees (I think) have returned to port unaided, it's not all carnage.Its demolition derby!
The IMOCA 60 class is run by the entrants, so I'm sure they will look carefully at what's occurred and take action as required.
However, to put this race in perspective, how many who set out for the summit of Everest actually get there? While no-one wants to see anyone injured, the extreme difficulty of completing this course is a major attraction of the VG for the competitors. To complete the course puts you in a very exclusive club, much like Everest.
Solo offshore racing is dominated by the French because it appeals to the public on two levels, as sport and adventure. As a consequence, they have boats sponsored by many household names like banks, insurers, food manuf etc and up to a million people will visit the race village before the VG start, so it gets huge press. Contrast that to Britain, where yacht racing is generally perceived to be elitist, and is dominated by round the buoys handicap racing, which is almost unfathomable (and holds little interest) to the general public.
I wouldn't do it, but have huge respect for those who take the VG challenge on successfully.
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