Running a boat charter company
Discussion
Where are you thinking of operating from?.
The best boat for your return is a X Moorings Leopard 4500 or 4700 Cat . At that sort of size .Plus take advatage of the Dollar rate.
Cats are buy far the best boat for charter and the easiest to live and work on .
The best boat for your return is a X Moorings Leopard 4500 or 4700 Cat . At that sort of size .Plus take advatage of the Dollar rate.
Cats are buy far the best boat for charter and the easiest to live and work on .
Edited by Rum Runner on Sunday 5th August 18:52
Mahatma Bag said:
I am toying with the idea of starting a yacht chartering business...
I see it as a way of subsidising the costs of my own boat, but looking at the charter rates some places charge against the cost of the boats they use, the return on capital seems pretty good, so what am I missing?
I think you have to take into account the wear and tear on the boat and its affect on later value. and a host of other things to like increased running costs and insurance and not being able to use your boat when you want to.I see it as a way of subsidising the costs of my own boat, but looking at the charter rates some places charge against the cost of the boats they use, the return on capital seems pretty good, so what am I missing?
I have also pondered the same things whilst looking at my bank account.
There was a good article in PBO last month on the actual DOT requirements to get your boat coded for the required area of use etc.
Having looked at whats available on the market to charter I think a generalisation would be that the boats are all high volume numbers i.e. sunsail through to the more specialised charter market i.e. swans, oysters and discovery etc.
The question to ask is do you want to run it as a business and never use the boat yourself, or supplement running costs?
I would probably fall into the later, well to start with anyway depending upon bookings etc.
Initial outgoing would be costs required to get the vessel coded, unless you bought an already coded vessel. I am guessing increased insurance costs, advertising costs.
The unseen costs are probably (for the typical owner who only used the boat an average number of days a year)
Increased costs/risk would be
Engine maintenance.
Sail Replacement.
Damage to vessel preventing hire.
Increased wear and tear.
General missue, that you don't get told about.
Although I am sure that with carful charterer selection and a good deposit prior to to hiring out it could be a goer.
I know there a few first 41.7 and bigger that do the UK regattas/races, then the ARC races, caribbian regattas etc and keep there head above water. The key would be to have a boat that had normal deck gear, sails etc. I did the altantic challenge on Spitit Ex Tyco I think and the one spinnaker that we blew probably cost the same as all the monies paid by crew!
What would be the protocol for charterer returning damaged sails and claiming that they just failed, haden't been used in excessive wind etc etc.
There was a good article in PBO last month on the actual DOT requirements to get your boat coded for the required area of use etc.
Having looked at whats available on the market to charter I think a generalisation would be that the boats are all high volume numbers i.e. sunsail through to the more specialised charter market i.e. swans, oysters and discovery etc.
The question to ask is do you want to run it as a business and never use the boat yourself, or supplement running costs?
I would probably fall into the later, well to start with anyway depending upon bookings etc.
Initial outgoing would be costs required to get the vessel coded, unless you bought an already coded vessel. I am guessing increased insurance costs, advertising costs.
The unseen costs are probably (for the typical owner who only used the boat an average number of days a year)
Increased costs/risk would be
Engine maintenance.
Sail Replacement.
Damage to vessel preventing hire.
Increased wear and tear.
General missue, that you don't get told about.
Although I am sure that with carful charterer selection and a good deposit prior to to hiring out it could be a goer.
I know there a few first 41.7 and bigger that do the UK regattas/races, then the ARC races, caribbian regattas etc and keep there head above water. The key would be to have a boat that had normal deck gear, sails etc. I did the altantic challenge on Spitit Ex Tyco I think and the one spinnaker that we blew probably cost the same as all the monies paid by crew!
What would be the protocol for charterer returning damaged sails and claiming that they just failed, haden't been used in excessive wind etc etc.
Rum Runner said:
Where are you thinking of operating from?.
The best boat for your return is a X Moorings Leopard 4500 or 4700 Cat . At that sort of size .Plus take advatage of the Dollar rate.
Cats are buy far the best boat for charter and the easiest to live and work on .
Possibly relocating to Florida at the end of the year, so based out there, sailing ground would be Florida keys and Bahamas.The best boat for your return is a X Moorings Leopard 4500 or 4700 Cat . At that sort of size .Plus take advatage of the Dollar rate.
Cats are buy far the best boat for charter and the easiest to live and work on .
Edited by Rum Runner on Sunday 5th August 18:52
ALawson said:
I have also pondered the same things whilst looking at my bank account.
There was a good article in PBO last month on the actual DOT requirements to get your boat coded for the required area of use etc.
Having looked at whats available on the market to charter I think a generalisation would be that the boats are all high volume numbers i.e. sunsail through to the more specialised charter market i.e. swans, oysters and discovery etc.
The question to ask is do you want to run it as a business and never use the boat yourself, or supplement running costs?
I would probably fall into the later, well to start with anyway depending upon bookings etc.
Initial outgoing would be costs required to get the vessel coded, unless you bought an already coded vessel. I am guessing increased insurance costs, advertising costs.
The unseen costs are probably (for the typical owner who only used the boat an average number of days a year)
Increased costs/risk would be
Engine maintenance.
Sail Replacement.
Damage to vessel preventing hire.
Increased wear and tear.
General missue, that you don't get told about.
Although I am sure that with carful charterer selection and a good deposit prior to to hiring out it could be a goer.
I know there a few first 41.7 and bigger that do the UK regattas/races, then the ARC races, caribbian regattas etc and keep there head above water. The key would be to have a boat that had normal deck gear, sails etc. I did the altantic challenge on Spitit Ex Tyco I think and the one spinnaker that we blew probably cost the same as all the monies paid by crew!
What would be the protocol for charterer returning damaged sails and claiming that they just failed, haden't been used in excessive wind etc etc.
I think doing race charters with the much greater wear and tear, not to mention expensive composite sails, would be too expensive to be viable. There was a good article in PBO last month on the actual DOT requirements to get your boat coded for the required area of use etc.
Having looked at whats available on the market to charter I think a generalisation would be that the boats are all high volume numbers i.e. sunsail through to the more specialised charter market i.e. swans, oysters and discovery etc.
The question to ask is do you want to run it as a business and never use the boat yourself, or supplement running costs?
I would probably fall into the later, well to start with anyway depending upon bookings etc.
Initial outgoing would be costs required to get the vessel coded, unless you bought an already coded vessel. I am guessing increased insurance costs, advertising costs.
The unseen costs are probably (for the typical owner who only used the boat an average number of days a year)
Increased costs/risk would be
Engine maintenance.
Sail Replacement.
Damage to vessel preventing hire.
Increased wear and tear.
General missue, that you don't get told about.
Although I am sure that with carful charterer selection and a good deposit prior to to hiring out it could be a goer.
I know there a few first 41.7 and bigger that do the UK regattas/races, then the ARC races, caribbian regattas etc and keep there head above water. The key would be to have a boat that had normal deck gear, sails etc. I did the altantic challenge on Spitit Ex Tyco I think and the one spinnaker that we blew probably cost the same as all the monies paid by crew!
What would be the protocol for charterer returning damaged sails and claiming that they just failed, haden't been used in excessive wind etc etc.
Forget race charters you have to think in the American way and its very little to do with sailing its a service / hospitality job, you have to think in different way to U.K sailing . The cat i mentioned is Ideal for the Job and with charter for around the 9,000 - 12,000 U.S per week for 6 guests with proper fridges and A.C and easy to maintain,4 double cabins all on suite with lots of space and most import decent crew quarters for yourself ( on of the 4 cabins ) . Expect to budget for about in the BVI which is more expensive than States of around $1500 U.S a week on food and booze . A lot of charter guest are not sailors . Race charter is hard work / dangerous sailing with people who don't now the boat , lots of travelling to regattas for a limited amount of money .
Estimate running costs on a sail boat doing charter as 10% of Initial purchase price. A good 4500-4700 would be around £150,000- £200,000 some x crewed boats are better spec and cared for .
Have look at our site www.toplineyachtcharters.com , this is the general charter market average boats , not mega yachts . Also look at Mooring's crewed yachts this is seen really as the industry standard and is seen by owners as a good basic grasp of how to run a crewed yacht charter.
I have just helped a guy buy a 4700 cat from the moorings and i am on the boat in November for the BVI charter show .
If you want to find out what it is all about then i would try and get to the show , you will see what goes on all the big brokers will be there from the States and Carib plus clearing houses which run the yachts calenders and take payment via escrow .
Unless you go down this style of organisation you will be out there on your own and it is very limiting .
Also expect a limited number of charters in your first year if you do it as said maybe 4-6 as you need to build a good reputation with brokers .
Good crews on good cats BVI area do around 15 -20 a year .
Note 80% of all charters that happen in the Carib happen in the BVI,though it is getting overcrowded a little then next big place will be Grenadines especially as St. Lucia is putting 200 Mil U.S.D into the marina and services which then makes it a 50-60miles early morning / afternoon hop to Bequia ( Grenadines ) on what is usually a nice reach.
Bahama problem is depth everywhere is very shallow 5 ft so again the Cat is the way forward as it can excess a lot more places with shallow draft ( also important in BVI) .
Oh yes i was a hard core racer who hated cats as its not proper sailing , but making money form chartering is a whole different line of thought .I loved the Sigma 400 i campaigned for 6 years, but utterly useless in this context.
Things liked 41.7 would not even get listed and if did charter would return pocket money .
If really serious contact me i maybe able to help .
Estimate running costs on a sail boat doing charter as 10% of Initial purchase price. A good 4500-4700 would be around £150,000- £200,000 some x crewed boats are better spec and cared for .
Have look at our site www.toplineyachtcharters.com , this is the general charter market average boats , not mega yachts . Also look at Mooring's crewed yachts this is seen really as the industry standard and is seen by owners as a good basic grasp of how to run a crewed yacht charter.
I have just helped a guy buy a 4700 cat from the moorings and i am on the boat in November for the BVI charter show .
If you want to find out what it is all about then i would try and get to the show , you will see what goes on all the big brokers will be there from the States and Carib plus clearing houses which run the yachts calenders and take payment via escrow .
Unless you go down this style of organisation you will be out there on your own and it is very limiting .
Also expect a limited number of charters in your first year if you do it as said maybe 4-6 as you need to build a good reputation with brokers .
Good crews on good cats BVI area do around 15 -20 a year .
Note 80% of all charters that happen in the Carib happen in the BVI,though it is getting overcrowded a little then next big place will be Grenadines especially as St. Lucia is putting 200 Mil U.S.D into the marina and services which then makes it a 50-60miles early morning / afternoon hop to Bequia ( Grenadines ) on what is usually a nice reach.
Bahama problem is depth everywhere is very shallow 5 ft so again the Cat is the way forward as it can excess a lot more places with shallow draft ( also important in BVI) .
Oh yes i was a hard core racer who hated cats as its not proper sailing , but making money form chartering is a whole different line of thought .I loved the Sigma 400 i campaigned for 6 years, but utterly useless in this context.
Things liked 41.7 would not even get listed and if did charter would return pocket money .
If really serious contact me i maybe able to help .
Edited by Rum Runner on Monday 6th August 19:43
I think the best bet is to buy some and sell some as a fractional ownership deal that way you get a big enought fleet to deliver economies of scale e.g. justify carrying spares/hiring good mechanics etc. you get guaranteed income from the fractionals and you have extra charter opportunities from the "owners" too..
N2H
N2H
I don't really get involved with charters but I do frequently get involved with the sale of yachts which have chartered... do bear in mind that it WILL knock the value of your yacht... even if she is in fantastic condition... the boat-buying public are paranoid about yachts that have chartered, even though the maintenance and general upkeep is often way better than privately used yachts.
go figure!
go figure!
NickyTwoHats said:
I think the best bet is to buy some and sell some as a fractional ownership deal that way you get a big enought fleet to deliver economies of scale e.g. justify carrying spares/hiring good mechanics etc. you get guaranteed income from the fractionals and you have extra charter opportunities from the "owners" too..
N2H
The big problem with fractional ownership is selling it to people , and also 1 owner can bad enough never mind 6 e.t.c .N2H
If you look at the big people like moorings they just get other people to buy the boat work out a % rate per charter or deal per annum but 1 owner per boat the owner has very little to do with boat at all apart form 6 weeks a year use on any boat in the fleet anywhere .They generally have no contact with crew , only crewed yacht manager .
As said the best boat has the least outlay for the most return, forget ego's and what you like to sail / play with its a case of what works.
A huge asset is crew ,a Know crew who will ring up and get people to change a light bulb and there are crew who will are multi skilled and call the guru's in rarely and the boats are immaculate and everything works , these boats make money, if they can also deliver a good charter .
I agree with Toxic frog that the stigma with charter boats is generally misguided, some boats may only do 8 charters a year but what this means is that they have to be kept to a showboat standard for the brokers to book them .They will also be inspected at charter shows and have to be read to roll at the drop of a hat . Most bigger boats start to go off if left along for more than 12 hrs .
Just remember its not going to make you loads a money , if you want to do that work on somebody elses boat and have no costs of your own and when you get fed up up you can move on .
Its a funny game you work for people with multi mil $ and you live the life they are trying to get.
Best boat is always somebody elses !.
Edited by Rum Runner on Thursday 16th August 23:39
Most private boats go through clearing houses , these run the boats calender and are post box for mail , and also send out paper marketing to broker requesting info. They deal with the transfer of funds between broker and boat ( escrow ).They market the boats on there website as well.
The boat is responsible for sorting there website but have a broker friendly website with no direct contact details on. Also the boats need to do there own paper marketing crew profiles and sample menu. Which are then at the clearing house to send out .
We are now brokers ,after years of driving the things , same a travel agent . We skim a bit off the top .
At the same time we send preference sheets out to clients and are the go between for client clearing house and crew .
this is us www.toplineyachtcharters.com
this is a good clearing house in the BVI http://charterportbvi.com/
The boat is responsible for sorting there website but have a broker friendly website with no direct contact details on. Also the boats need to do there own paper marketing crew profiles and sample menu. Which are then at the clearing house to send out .
We are now brokers ,after years of driving the things , same a travel agent . We skim a bit off the top .
At the same time we send preference sheets out to clients and are the go between for client clearing house and crew .
this is us www.toplineyachtcharters.com
this is a good clearing house in the BVI http://charterportbvi.com/
Edited by Rum Runner on Saturday 18th August 23:00
Is the main Carib market fully crewed boats with clients quaffing cocktails in luxury, or bareboat? I get the impression it is the former (which obviously has greater costs and staffing issues).
Cheers for the info
NB. There is a beautiful Nautor Swan 47 (1977 vintage) for sale in Ft Lauderdale, I suppose ideally I would like something like that and do some chartering to defray costs.
linky: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1678272/0
Cheers for the info
NB. There is a beautiful Nautor Swan 47 (1977 vintage) for sale in Ft Lauderdale, I suppose ideally I would like something like that and do some chartering to defray costs.
linky: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1678272/0
Edited by Mahatma Bag on Sunday 19th August 09:46
Depends how many charters you want to do and how much return you want . Lots of bare-boat in the Carib but then this comes at a cost to the boat,reef damage etc.
Are you intending to run the boat yourself ?
I would steer clear of the swan if you want to make money and get bookings .
Remember cabin layout freezers etc are much more important than a name like swan , the old boats as well tend to have a small internal volume ,narrow ends ( roll in following seas and at anchor,IOR old school design). There is no outside table or dinning aera which is of first prority eating inside ( with large bimini) in the carib is a no no espescially without A.C. .Its a nightmare layout for charter in these type of climates,also you need generally 3 doubles or a most modern charter 50ft 4 doubles .
You have to think in totally different way to U.K sailing .
Like this http://www.charteryachts.info/kotari/index.html
This boat goes out for $7500 U.S.D for 1 week 6 guests crewed, 4500 cat $12000 U.S.D 6 pax 7 nights.
The costs of a crewed boat if running yourself are mainly only food and bev issues but go out for a hell of a lot more and are also not driven by the odd numpty.
The shallow draft of cats lend them self well to a lot of carib areas for charter and the major factor lack of roll on the hook , which in the carib is the general way its not marina hoping like the med. They are far the best return on your cash x moorings 4500 / 4700.
To be honest if you are thinking of living on the boat and doing charters then the best boat is somebody else's . This is where you make the money.
As said go to the BVI boat show in November , there are also all the other companies around in Tortola over 200 moorings boats , sunsail , horizon , voyage , TMM , North South e.t.c . 80% of all Caribbean charters occur in the BVI.
Are you intending to run the boat yourself ?
I would steer clear of the swan if you want to make money and get bookings .
Remember cabin layout freezers etc are much more important than a name like swan , the old boats as well tend to have a small internal volume ,narrow ends ( roll in following seas and at anchor,IOR old school design). There is no outside table or dinning aera which is of first prority eating inside ( with large bimini) in the carib is a no no espescially without A.C. .Its a nightmare layout for charter in these type of climates,also you need generally 3 doubles or a most modern charter 50ft 4 doubles .
You have to think in totally different way to U.K sailing .
Like this http://www.charteryachts.info/kotari/index.html
This boat goes out for $7500 U.S.D for 1 week 6 guests crewed, 4500 cat $12000 U.S.D 6 pax 7 nights.
The costs of a crewed boat if running yourself are mainly only food and bev issues but go out for a hell of a lot more and are also not driven by the odd numpty.
The shallow draft of cats lend them self well to a lot of carib areas for charter and the major factor lack of roll on the hook , which in the carib is the general way its not marina hoping like the med. They are far the best return on your cash x moorings 4500 / 4700.
To be honest if you are thinking of living on the boat and doing charters then the best boat is somebody else's . This is where you make the money.
As said go to the BVI boat show in November , there are also all the other companies around in Tortola over 200 moorings boats , sunsail , horizon , voyage , TMM , North South e.t.c . 80% of all Caribbean charters occur in the BVI.
Edited by Rum Runner on Sunday 19th August 23:26
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