Laser 4000 death at Abersoch
Discussion
Just saw this on the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/6923522.stm
Obviously too early to make any judgements about a very sad incident, but as a 4000 owner myself I'm a bit concerned that they seem to be more vulnerable to this kind of thing than some other boats (I think a 4000 sailor drowned at Queen Mary a few years ago).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/6923522.stm
Obviously too early to make any judgements about a very sad incident, but as a 4000 owner myself I'm a bit concerned that they seem to be more vulnerable to this kind of thing than some other boats (I think a 4000 sailor drowned at Queen Mary a few years ago).
Very sad, i've been caught in the rigging when we've capsized before now and it isn't fun at all.
My sister actually got stuck under the upturned hull of a Mirror dinghy in Plymouth sound a few years ago and was lucky she could reach the air pocket underneath.
Unfortunately on Laser 4000's and other skiff style boats there is no air pocket at all so if you get stuck you've had it basically.
My sister actually got stuck under the upturned hull of a Mirror dinghy in Plymouth sound a few years ago and was lucky she could reach the air pocket underneath.
Unfortunately on Laser 4000's and other skiff style boats there is no air pocket at all so if you get stuck you've had it basically.
sad and unfortunate.
Would'nt say that this is an issue specifically to the 4000 though.
As mentioned above, any Skiff or transomless boat will be similar in that there is no or very limited air pocket when inverted.
Its more that there are more and more of these skiff type classes about these days laws of average etc, still sad.
don't worry though ... i am sure that you in the UK will be safe, teh government will either ban them as a HSE risk or insist on the installation of scuba gear in teh hull of each boat.
Would'nt say that this is an issue specifically to the 4000 though.
As mentioned above, any Skiff or transomless boat will be similar in that there is no or very limited air pocket when inverted.
Its more that there are more and more of these skiff type classes about these days laws of average etc, still sad.
don't worry though ... i am sure that you in the UK will be safe, teh government will either ban them as a HSE risk or insist on the installation of scuba gear in teh hull of each boat.
littlegreenfairy said:
Thats sad 
Being caught under a hull just about convinced me to stop sailing full stop. Utterly terrifying.
You can't let it stop you, if you stopped everything people got hurt doing you'd not even get into bed Being caught under a hull just about convinced me to stop sailing full stop. Utterly terrifying.
The 200 is transomless but there is a small air pocket under it (had to go under it once to retrieve the centreboard) and it's very rare, the last death I recall from drowning was a Tornado sailor at Queen Mary (I think) who got stuck under the trampoline and couldn't cut through it.
Most dinghies have a decent air pocket under them except as XJS John says most transomless and skiffs.
Edited by Nic Jones on Wednesday 1st August 10:48
Nic Jones said:
littlegreenfairy said:
Thats sad
Being caught under a hull just about convinced me to stop sailing full stop. Utterly terrifying.
You can't let it stop you, if you stopped everything people got hurt doing you'd not even get into bed Being caught under a hull just about convinced me to stop sailing full stop. Utterly terrifying.
The 200 is transomless but there is a small air pocket under it (had to go under it once to retrieve the centreboard) and it's very rare, the last death I recall from drowning was a Tornado sailor at Queen Mary (I think) who got stuck under the trampoline and couldn't cut through it.
Most dinghies have a decent air pocket under them except as XJS John says most transomless and skiffs.
Edited by Nic Jones on Wednesday 1st August 10:48
It's sad & my feelings are with the family. But sailing is a dangerous sport & these things can and do happen.
We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
littlegreenfairy said:
Nic Jones said:
littlegreenfairy said:
Thats sad
Being caught under a hull just about convinced me to stop sailing full stop. Utterly terrifying.
You can't let it stop you, if you stopped everything people got hurt doing you'd not even get into bed Being caught under a hull just about convinced me to stop sailing full stop. Utterly terrifying.
The 200 is transomless but there is a small air pocket under it (had to go under it once to retrieve the centreboard) and it's very rare, the last death I recall from drowning was a Tornado sailor at Queen Mary (I think) who got stuck under the trampoline and couldn't cut through it.
Most dinghies have a decent air pocket under them except as XJS John says most transomless and skiffs.
Edited by Nic Jones on Wednesday 1st August 10:48
Schmalex said:
It's sad & my feelings are with the family. But sailing is a dangerous sport & these things can and do happen.
We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
That's terrible. Was it an uncontrolled gybe? We normally rig a preventer when on a broad reach or further off wind to hopefully stop that sort of thing happening.We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
Edited by Mahatma Bag on Thursday 2nd August 10:41
Mahatma Bag said:
Schmalex said:
It's sad & my feelings are with the family. But sailing is a dangerous sport & these things can and do happen.
We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
That's terrible. Was it an incontrolled gybe? We normally rig a preventer when on a broad reach or further off wind to hopefully stop that sort of thing happening.We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
We kept him alive for about 20 minutes on the boat whilst the coastguard came out & got him into the helo with a highline, but he died on the way to hospital.
It certainly made me a lot more conscious of people getting their heads out of the way on gybe's - people can probably hear me screaming "HEAAAAADS" half way down the Solent now when we gybe.
Stil, he knew the risks, I know the risks and it has not put me off the sport I love in any way whatsover. However, it saddens me whenever someone gets hurt on a boat.
Schmalex said:
It's sad & my feelings are with the family. But sailing is a dangerous sport & these things can and do happen.
We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
Not nice. I was outbound from Dover in the early hours of the morning a few years ago when I heard a mayday call from a yacht aground in the Thames estuary. A chap had gone overboard and been injured by the prop somehow. His son made the mayday call, which was horrible to listen to. He didn't make it unfortunately. linkWe had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
Things can certainly go wrong very quickly.
tank slapper said:
Schmalex said:
It's sad & my feelings are with the family. But sailing is a dangerous sport & these things can and do happen.
We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
Not nice. I was outbound from Dover in the early hours of the morning a few years ago when I heard a mayday call from a yacht aground in the Thames estuary. A chap had gone overboard and been injured by the prop somehow. His son made the mayday call, which was horrible to listen to. He didn't make it unfortunately. linkWe had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
Things can certainly go wrong very quickly.
Edited by Mahatma Bag on Thursday 2nd August 10:50
Schmalex said:
Mahatma Bag said:
Schmalex said:
It's sad & my feelings are with the family. But sailing is a dangerous sport & these things can and do happen.
We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
That's terrible. Was it an incontrolled gybe? We normally rig a preventer when on a broad reach or further off wind to hopefully stop that sort of thing happening.We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
We kept him alive for about 20 minutes on the boat whilst the coastguard came out & got him into the helo with a highline, but he died on the way to hospital.
It certainly made me a lot more conscious of people getting their heads out of the way on gybe's - people can probably hear me screaming "HEAAAAADS" half way down the Solent now when we gybe.
Stil, he knew the risks, I know the risks and it has not put me off the sport I love in any way whatsover. However, it saddens me whenever someone gets hurt on a boat.
Mahatma Bag said:
Was that the chap who went over the side to free a bit of rope that was tangled in the prop, only his safety line got caught in it and the turning prop shaft wound him down under the water?
Yes, that's the one. The news article said he was crushed, but I don't think that is the case. They were aground on one of the banks east of Fisherman's Gat from memory and on a falling tide.It was one of those accidents that is entirely avoidable, but in the early hours after a long passage decision making can be impaired I guess.
Schmalex said:
Mahatma Bag said:
Schmalex said:
It's sad & my feelings are with the family. But sailing is a dangerous sport & these things can and do happen.
We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
That's terrible. Was it an incontrolled gybe? We normally rig a preventer when on a broad reach or further off wind to hopefully stop that sort of thing happening.We had a chap die on the yacht that I race on about 12 years ago (he got hit by the boom in about 30kts breeze). Absolutely devastating, but you know the risks when you get on the boat and try to mitigate against them accordingly but sometimes, it does just go wrong & people get hurt
I sail a 4000 and was at the event, the fleet was decidedly subdued for the last few days, and rightly so. The class assocation has announced a new cup, the "Tim Atkinson Cup" will be awarded to the winner of the 6th race of the nationals at each subsequent nationals in order that such a trajic event isn't forgotten. Condolenses to his family.
Just to clear up some misconceptions that I've noticed:
I would like to reiterate my sympathies towards his friends and family, and to his helm for whom this must be an exceptionally difficult time.
rustyspit said:
I think a 4000 sailor drowned at Queen Mary a few years ago
The chairman of the class assocation said this was the first death associated with the class, though me may have been refering to open events.Hard-Drive said:
MPS forum says that apparently he got stuck with the mainsheet around his neck.
My crew and I spoke to an RYA accident investigator and the support boat crew who pulled him from the boat yesterday morning (we were the first kitted up on the beech and they wanted to see a rigged boat). From what they were saying then it seems he was on the foredeck prior to the capsize, and became entangled during the capsize. Its highly unlikely we will ever be sure, from the position he was in its a possibility that his trapeze hook was caught in the cunningham/gnav system. The rope around his neck thing would appear to be rumour that spread quickly, its what I was told first as well, the support boat crew described him as having a lose rope laid over his torso.I would like to reiterate my sympathies towards his friends and family, and to his helm for whom this must be an exceptionally difficult time.
Extremely sad , I was out on the water myself teaching that day . It was a nice day all round, especially compared to dinghy week the week before when there was much more wind and a lot more boats .
I am told there was a death before in 4000's and they do invert rapidly, why masts are not sealed like cat masts is a mystery .
One main safety boat issue with asymmetric dinghies is to lift the bow of the boat by its Kite poll onto the RIB tube to create a air pocket.
I later had to move the boat from the beach for his other half , and really what can you say to comfort her, just shocking .
Apparently the poor guy had just retired last week.
My thoughts go out to the family .
I am told there was a death before in 4000's and they do invert rapidly, why masts are not sealed like cat masts is a mystery .
One main safety boat issue with asymmetric dinghies is to lift the bow of the boat by its Kite poll onto the RIB tube to create a air pocket.
I later had to move the boat from the beach for his other half , and really what can you say to comfort her, just shocking .
Apparently the poor guy had just retired last week.
My thoughts go out to the family .
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