F4 Phantom soldiering on after 67 years
Discussion
First flight of the mighty Phantom was 67 year ago.
In that year Elvis Presley released ‘Jailhouse Rock’.
The first Porsche 911 was six years in the future.
The top selling UK car was the Morris Minor.
It is an old, old, old design.
And there are still apparently around 100 of them still on active service, in Iran, Turkey and Greece.
In Top Gun 2, the ‘old Iranian fighter’ was an F14, more than a decade and a whole fighter generation younger than the venerable F4.
So here is the question - what role can the F4 possibly carry out these days, especially for Greece and Turkey that both have more modern equipment?
Must admit I was very pleased when I read that so many are still creating thunder in the sky.
In that year Elvis Presley released ‘Jailhouse Rock’.
The first Porsche 911 was six years in the future.
The top selling UK car was the Morris Minor.
It is an old, old, old design.
And there are still apparently around 100 of them still on active service, in Iran, Turkey and Greece.
In Top Gun 2, the ‘old Iranian fighter’ was an F14, more than a decade and a whole fighter generation younger than the venerable F4.
So here is the question - what role can the F4 possibly carry out these days, especially for Greece and Turkey that both have more modern equipment?
Must admit I was very pleased when I read that so many are still creating thunder in the sky.
Ayahuasca said:
So here is the question - what role can the F4 possibly carry out these days
Target practice.Either as a QF-4, or with some unlucky sod inside.
Or carry out some sort of action that doesn't see it getting involved with any opposing/modern forces or air defense. Maybe as a distraction.
I recently recruited a new software QA - Turkish ex F4 pilot, he d had to flee Turkey due to the attempted Erdogan coup.
He was a test pilot with a lot (thousands) of hours, used to fire stuff like Popeye missiles for example. His squadron was usually reconnaissance. He has some prestty cool photos and on board go-pro stuff.
Edit: so to answer your question - weapons testing and recon (if you look at pics of Turkish F4s the recon planes have a sort of “eye” symbol on the nose)
He was a test pilot with a lot (thousands) of hours, used to fire stuff like Popeye missiles for example. His squadron was usually reconnaissance. He has some prestty cool photos and on board go-pro stuff.
Edit: so to answer your question - weapons testing and recon (if you look at pics of Turkish F4s the recon planes have a sort of “eye” symbol on the nose)
Edited by Dog Star on Wednesday 11th February 10:17
Depends on the role assigned and what avionics upgrades it's had.
Not every role involves yanking and banking in dog fights.
With modern weapon systems, as long as you can survive to get to your firing position 10/20/30/40 miles from target, release then turn tail and afterburn it away, mission accomplished
Not every role involves yanking and banking in dog fights.
With modern weapon systems, as long as you can survive to get to your firing position 10/20/30/40 miles from target, release then turn tail and afterburn it away, mission accomplished
Rumour is they are building entirely new B52';s and they could see service for a lot longer, but obviously I doubt any old airframes are left, perhaps in test roles but no shortage of nmuch younger stuff could be used I think
The C130 has been around a long while.
I would think in less well of countries there are countless trainers, Mirages, Mig21's even 17's and 19;'s that are just as old.
The F4 is the older version of the F16, can pretty do most things pretty well, not sure they were cheap, ours were ruined by the Spey installation for some roles, but good at others, typical of 60's MoD garbage decisions.
But a magnificent thing, up there with the Canberra, the 130, a few other transport planes as a proper reliable workhorse.
The one I cannot believe flew so long was the F104, I mean they were always a deathtrap!!!
The C130 has been around a long while.
I would think in less well of countries there are countless trainers, Mirages, Mig21's even 17's and 19;'s that are just as old.
The F4 is the older version of the F16, can pretty do most things pretty well, not sure they were cheap, ours were ruined by the Spey installation for some roles, but good at others, typical of 60's MoD garbage decisions.
But a magnificent thing, up there with the Canberra, the 130, a few other transport planes as a proper reliable workhorse.
The one I cannot believe flew so long was the F104, I mean they were always a deathtrap!!!
Eric Mc said:
bergclimber34 said:
The one I cannot believe flew so long was the F104, I mean they were always a deathtrap!!!
Actually, not really.bergclimber34 said:
I think most military jet historians would disagree.
The F-84 it replaced in German air force service had a higher loss rate (36% vs the F-104s 32%), and the loss rate varied hugely, from the Canadians (46% lost) down to the Norwegians (only 14%). Spain didn't lose any Starfighters AFAIK. The MiG-19 had an overall attrition rate of 48% for comparison.Yes, it was a dangerous aircraft to operate, but that is the nature of the business, especially in that time period.
WH16 said:
bergclimber34 said:
I think most military jet historians would disagree.
The F-84 it replaced in German air force service had a higher loss rate (36% vs the F-104s 32%), and the loss rate varied hugely, from the Canadians (46% lost) down to the Norwegians (only 14%). Spain didn't lose any Starfighters AFAIK. The MiG-19 had an overall attrition rate of 48% for comparison.Yes, it was a dangerous aircraft to operate, but that is the nature of the business, especially in that time period.
That said, the only aircraft I've seen crash personally was a German F104, at Yeovilton.
There is an awful lot of mythology about the F-104 - a lot of it negative and a lot of it seems to emanate from the UK.
I honestly don't really understand why. Yes, the Germans had a very poor track record with their F-104s - mainly because their training syllabus for F-104 pilots was inadequate and didn't prepare their pilots for operating in Northern European conditions.
As has been said, other air forces seemed to get on much better with it. The Italians loved it so much that they operated an upgraded version of it (the F-104S) into the early 2000s.
The early F-104s (the A to D models) were very, very simple and limited, but fast, aeroplanes. The version chosen for export to many, many countries, was a very different and much more capable machine.
I love the very specialised experimental F-104s that were operated by the USAF and NASA - either as fast chase planes or as high altitude (over 100,000 feet) zoom climb aircraft.
I honestly don't really understand why. Yes, the Germans had a very poor track record with their F-104s - mainly because their training syllabus for F-104 pilots was inadequate and didn't prepare their pilots for operating in Northern European conditions.
As has been said, other air forces seemed to get on much better with it. The Italians loved it so much that they operated an upgraded version of it (the F-104S) into the early 2000s.
The early F-104s (the A to D models) were very, very simple and limited, but fast, aeroplanes. The version chosen for export to many, many countries, was a very different and much more capable machine.
I love the very specialised experimental F-104s that were operated by the USAF and NASA - either as fast chase planes or as high altitude (over 100,000 feet) zoom climb aircraft.
The Turks did spend a bit on the 'Terminator' upgrades with a lot of fancy Israeli kit added. As said, sufficient to do a job in an uncontested environment, but wouldn't hold up against a more modern adversary.
A lot of older types like the 400 or so PLAAF MiG-21s/J-7s are surely just kept as AMRAAM sponges to stress the US logistic chain should the SCS kick off. Even as essentially manned target drones they still have some strategic value.
A lot of older types like the 400 or so PLAAF MiG-21s/J-7s are surely just kept as AMRAAM sponges to stress the US logistic chain should the SCS kick off. Even as essentially manned target drones they still have some strategic value.
WH16 said:
williamp said:
Would love to see one display at a uk airshow...
Maube with an F15 display too. I missed both of these displays "back in the day"
Saudi F-15s were at RIAT last year.Maube with an F15 display too. I missed both of these displays "back in the day"
epic they were but i only saw on static, the qatari verion gave a demo however.
theplayingmantis said:
WH16 said:
williamp said:
Would love to see one display at a uk airshow...
Maube with an F15 display too. I missed both of these displays "back in the day"
Saudi F-15s were at RIAT last year.Maube with an F15 display too. I missed both of these displays "back in the day"
epic they were but i only saw on static, the qatari verion gave a demo however.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff