Ryanair landings, more "positive" than other carriers?
Discussion
I've flown with Ryanair many times and knew that they seem to land a little less gracefully than some other carriers. Yesterday I was in row 11 with now windows so I had no visual cues regarding landing. This felt much firmer than recent flights, in fact there was a noticeable gasp from the cabin as we touched down then we seemed to veer to the right before straightening up and turning off the runway.
I appreciate that Boeing call for a positive rate of descent on their 737s.
I'm sure that not being able to see the approaching runway will mean the instant of landing is a bit of a surprise but does Ryanair train its pilots differently?
SD.
I appreciate that Boeing call for a positive rate of descent on their 737s.
I'm sure that not being able to see the approaching runway will mean the instant of landing is a bit of a surprise but does Ryanair train its pilots differently?
SD.
shed driver said:
I've flown with Ryanair many times and knew that they seem to land a little less gracefully than some other carriers. Yesterday I was in row 11 with now windows so I had no visual cues regarding landing. This felt much firmer than recent flights, in fact there was a noticeable gasp from the cabin as we touched down then we seemed to veer to the right before straightening up and turning off the runway.
I appreciate that Boeing call for a positive rate of descent on their 737s.
I'm sure that not being able to see the approaching runway will mean the instant of landing is a bit of a surprise but does Ryanair train its pilots differently?
SD.
Declaration - not a pilot, but have spoken to some RYR pilots on this exact question (back in my journo days when the publishing group included some airliner mags)I appreciate that Boeing call for a positive rate of descent on their 737s.
I'm sure that not being able to see the approaching runway will mean the instant of landing is a bit of a surprise but does Ryanair train its pilots differently?
SD.
Apparently it's mostly just the way that the big 737s (737-800 and the MAX-200 that Ryanair have at the core of their fleet) should be landed. As you say, Boeing's approved land technique is to firmly and positively put the aircraft on the ground. The 737 has short undercarriage legs compared to most other airliner types (especially the Airbuses) as a legacy of its original design to minimise the need for ground support equipment (luggage could be handled without belts or ramps). The latest big 737s are many tonnes heavier than the original 737 design, and this results in quite 'stiff' oleo settings and short travel on the main gear. So, just like a heavy car with short-travel stiff springs, the ride can be quite jolty.
It's also a near-universal principle in commerical aviation that while passengers will judge the 'quality' of a landing by how smooth the arrival and touchdown is, in terms of technical, performance and safety aspects the best landing is an accurate one that puts the aircraft on the ground at the proper touch-down point. Passenger (and pilots) may love a 'greaser' as the wheels touch and the oleos compress in perfect sync as the lift bleeds off, but floating down the tarmac is just chewing up runway that should be there for the landing run, and are not what the performance and safety calcs are based on. A harsh touchdown right on the start of the touchdown zone is far better than a butter-smooth arrival 300ft further down the runway. Of course, the highlight of a pilot's day is when they can pull off both, but the priority is on accuracy.
For Ryanair specifically, their training and monitoring is based around very close adherence to standard procedures and techniques for a combination of safety, performance and efficiency reasons. So firm landings are emphasised. Like a lot of low-cost carriers, Ryanair sometimes flies into regional airports with (relatively) short runways rather than big international hubs because it's cheaper for the operator. That's perfectly safe, but again the pilots don't have 1000s of feet of runway ahead of them going spare, so the best technique is to (sometimes very) positively fly the aircraft onto the runway at the touchdown point and not a yard further. Ryanair SOPs at certain airports may also require taking specific turnoffs to reduce taxi time/fuel burn/overall turnaround time, again making the pilots prioritising an accurate landing over a smooth one.
As someone pointed out to me, many people will do the majority of their flying on Ryanair or EasyJet. The A320s flown by Easyjet do have 'softer' landing characteristics thanks to the longer undercarriage legs and higher ground clearance, and the official Airbus technique (as programmed into the FBW system) calls for more flare and a smoother touchdown. So people will often come away thinking that 'Ryanair does really harsh landings' when what they're really seeing is the difference between 737s and A320s in general.
Hi
I would be interested to know which airport and date and time the landing took place.
I flown with lots of ex Ryanair pilots, and always been impressed with them. I suspect they have a large turnover of crews, which may mean a lot of new to type pilots undergoing training.
They also fly into a lot of smaller airfields with short runways. They are however rather keen on making the first runway turn off, due to the quick turn around times!
Boeing flight crew training manual suggests landing the aircraft in the right place, rather than holding off for a smooth touchdown further down the runway.
Hope that helps
I would be interested to know which airport and date and time the landing took place.
I flown with lots of ex Ryanair pilots, and always been impressed with them. I suspect they have a large turnover of crews, which may mean a lot of new to type pilots undergoing training.
They also fly into a lot of smaller airfields with short runways. They are however rather keen on making the first runway turn off, due to the quick turn around times!
Boeing flight crew training manual suggests landing the aircraft in the right place, rather than holding off for a smooth touchdown further down the runway.
Hope that helps
2xChevrons said:
Declaration - not a pilot, but have spoken to some RYR pilots on this exact question (back in my journo days when the publishing group included some airliner mags)
Apparently it's mostly just the way that the big 737s (737-800 and the MAX-200 that Ryanair have at the core of their fleet) should be landed. As you say, Boeing's approved land technique is to firmly and positively put the aircraft on the ground. The 737 has short undercarriage legs compared to most other airliner types (especially the Airbuses) as a legacy of its original design to minimise the need for ground support equipment (luggage could be handled without belts or ramps). The latest big 737s are many tonnes heavier than the original 737 design, and this results in quite 'stiff' oleo settings and short travel on the main gear. So, just like a heavy car with short-travel stiff springs, the ride can be quite jolty.
It's also a near-universal principle in commerical aviation that while passengers will judge the 'quality' of a landing by how smooth the arrival and touchdown is, in terms of technical, performance and safety aspects the best landing is an accurate one that puts the aircraft on the ground at the proper touch-down point. Passenger (and pilots) may love a 'greaser' as the wheels touch and the oleos compress in perfect sync as the lift bleeds off, but floating down the tarmac is just chewing up runway that should be there for the landing run, and are not what the performance and safety calcs are based on. A harsh touchdown right on the start of the touchdown zone is far better than a butter-smooth arrival 300ft further down the runway. Of course, the highlight of a pilot's day is when they can pull off both, but the priority is on accuracy.
For Ryanair specifically, their training and monitoring is based around very close adherence to standard procedures and techniques for a combination of safety, performance and efficiency reasons. So firm landings are emphasised. Like a lot of low-cost carriers, Ryanair sometimes flies into regional airports with (relatively) short runways rather than big international hubs because it's cheaper for the operator. That's perfectly safe, but again the pilots don't have 1000s of feet of runway ahead of them going spare, so the best technique is to (sometimes very) positively fly the aircraft onto the runway at the touchdown point and not a yard further. Ryanair SOPs at certain airports may also require taking specific turnoffs to reduce taxi time/fuel burn/overall turnaround time, again making the pilots prioritising an accurate landing over a smooth one.
As someone pointed out to me, many people will do the majority of their flying on Ryanair or EasyJet. The A320s flown by Easyjet do have 'softer' landing characteristics thanks to the longer undercarriage legs and higher ground clearance, and the official Airbus technique (as programmed into the FBW system) calls for more flare and a smoother touchdown. So people will often come away thinking that 'Ryanair does really harsh landings' when what they're really seeing is the difference between 737s and A320s in general.
A great understanding. Posted whilst I was posting!Apparently it's mostly just the way that the big 737s (737-800 and the MAX-200 that Ryanair have at the core of their fleet) should be landed. As you say, Boeing's approved land technique is to firmly and positively put the aircraft on the ground. The 737 has short undercarriage legs compared to most other airliner types (especially the Airbuses) as a legacy of its original design to minimise the need for ground support equipment (luggage could be handled without belts or ramps). The latest big 737s are many tonnes heavier than the original 737 design, and this results in quite 'stiff' oleo settings and short travel on the main gear. So, just like a heavy car with short-travel stiff springs, the ride can be quite jolty.
It's also a near-universal principle in commerical aviation that while passengers will judge the 'quality' of a landing by how smooth the arrival and touchdown is, in terms of technical, performance and safety aspects the best landing is an accurate one that puts the aircraft on the ground at the proper touch-down point. Passenger (and pilots) may love a 'greaser' as the wheels touch and the oleos compress in perfect sync as the lift bleeds off, but floating down the tarmac is just chewing up runway that should be there for the landing run, and are not what the performance and safety calcs are based on. A harsh touchdown right on the start of the touchdown zone is far better than a butter-smooth arrival 300ft further down the runway. Of course, the highlight of a pilot's day is when they can pull off both, but the priority is on accuracy.
For Ryanair specifically, their training and monitoring is based around very close adherence to standard procedures and techniques for a combination of safety, performance and efficiency reasons. So firm landings are emphasised. Like a lot of low-cost carriers, Ryanair sometimes flies into regional airports with (relatively) short runways rather than big international hubs because it's cheaper for the operator. That's perfectly safe, but again the pilots don't have 1000s of feet of runway ahead of them going spare, so the best technique is to (sometimes very) positively fly the aircraft onto the runway at the touchdown point and not a yard further. Ryanair SOPs at certain airports may also require taking specific turnoffs to reduce taxi time/fuel burn/overall turnaround time, again making the pilots prioritising an accurate landing over a smooth one.
As someone pointed out to me, many people will do the majority of their flying on Ryanair or EasyJet. The A320s flown by Easyjet do have 'softer' landing characteristics thanks to the longer undercarriage legs and higher ground clearance, and the official Airbus technique (as programmed into the FBW system) calls for more flare and a smoother touchdown. So people will often come away thinking that 'Ryanair does really harsh landings' when what they're really seeing is the difference between 737s and A320s in general.
shed driver said:
It was at Manchester yesterday.
Thanks, okay not short or bad weather then. However, runway 23 right was in use for landings. People always think a runway is flat, but 23 right has a hump just beyond the touchdown zone (1000 feet beyond the runway start) so if one lands on the upslope of the hump it can cause a firm touchdown.It’s simply down to Ryanair having the youngest and most inexperienced pilots. Inexperienced pilots=harder landings. They are by far the biggest recruiter of newly qualified airline pilots. As soon as most get their required experience, then quickly move onto the major airlines. While big thread about this in Pprune. And been discussed to death on internet forums. It’s definately a thing though. I’ve flown on B737’s around the world and none of them have ever been as worse as Ryanair’s!
UK_Scat_Pack said:
... As soon as most get their required experience, then quickly move onto the major airlines.
Usual PH drivel here (all of it) but note Ryanair is the 3rd largest airline in the World by passenger numbers.Quite the major airline.
The OP question is answered correctly before this post.
My impression from talking to commercial pilots (including some who were or had been at Ryanair) was that RYR's training was some of the best in the industry. They'll take a fresh cadet or a zero-hours qualified pilot and put them into a very finely-honed (like everything at Ryanair) system to get them up to speed with the airline's SOPs, which are akin to what you'd expect from the military with the level of detail - there's a proper RYR way to do everything and they expect you to do everything that way, on time, on the numbers, every time and check that you do so. And if you fall behind the curve, they apparently have a very effective system for remedial/development training to get you back up to the mark and keep you there.
Not just landing on the calculated touchdown point, and not just how many minutes the engines were above idle between top of descent and the final approach fix (Ryanair want that flown as close as possible to a continual idle-thrust 3nm/1000ft curve) but stuff like when the crew fires up the APU as they approach the stand - the approved way is to hit the Start button so the startup sequence is done and the 'APU Available' light comes on at the same moment that the parking brake goes on and the first engine is shut down. It saves fuel, and RYR Ops do pull the data on seconds between APU start and main engine shutdown (plus dozens of other parameters) to check they're within the approved range.
Plus the Ryanair crews are doing multiple short/medium sectors per shift, often in either some of the busiest and most complex airspace in the world and into some regional or island airports with remarkably basic facilities and equipment (often each at each end of the flight). And all high-pressure, short-time turnarounds between each leg to manage with as well.
Given Ryanair's safety record (for however much people moan about their pricing structure, their landings, their routes, their customer service and Michael O'Leary, it's very good) and all those factors I don't think anyone can criticise the pilots or the training they get.
By all accounts its hardly a very employee-centric or empathic place to work. The pilots are treated as interchangeable cogs that, like the aircraft, are there to be used as efficiently as possible and to have full productivity extracted from them, and it can be a rather draining experience. But it's somewhere a new pilot can get a lot of high-quality training and experience very quickly (and even get into the left-hand seat in 3 years if you perform well and get on the fast track) and do a lot of flying. Then they take that training to a long-haul or non-low-cost carrier and enjoy a bit of a breather!
Not just landing on the calculated touchdown point, and not just how many minutes the engines were above idle between top of descent and the final approach fix (Ryanair want that flown as close as possible to a continual idle-thrust 3nm/1000ft curve) but stuff like when the crew fires up the APU as they approach the stand - the approved way is to hit the Start button so the startup sequence is done and the 'APU Available' light comes on at the same moment that the parking brake goes on and the first engine is shut down. It saves fuel, and RYR Ops do pull the data on seconds between APU start and main engine shutdown (plus dozens of other parameters) to check they're within the approved range.
Plus the Ryanair crews are doing multiple short/medium sectors per shift, often in either some of the busiest and most complex airspace in the world and into some regional or island airports with remarkably basic facilities and equipment (often each at each end of the flight). And all high-pressure, short-time turnarounds between each leg to manage with as well.
Given Ryanair's safety record (for however much people moan about their pricing structure, their landings, their routes, their customer service and Michael O'Leary, it's very good) and all those factors I don't think anyone can criticise the pilots or the training they get.
By all accounts its hardly a very employee-centric or empathic place to work. The pilots are treated as interchangeable cogs that, like the aircraft, are there to be used as efficiently as possible and to have full productivity extracted from them, and it can be a rather draining experience. But it's somewhere a new pilot can get a lot of high-quality training and experience very quickly (and even get into the left-hand seat in 3 years if you perform well and get on the fast track) and do a lot of flying. Then they take that training to a long-haul or non-low-cost carrier and enjoy a bit of a breather!
I think you'll find just about all operators who take a zero-hours/experience cadet type, and put them in the right hand seat of a swept wing jet, have a rigid training system in place.
I've flown with pilots who've come from Ryanair, easyJet, BA, Monarch, Thomson, Wizz...to name a few, and they're all a similar product in terms of how they operate. Obviously there's variance to this standard; some are clearly better than others, show good command potential, have more initiative etc, but the recruitment and subsequent training system, has enabled this.
What disappoints me is the flack that Ryanair gets, whereby the general public associate a low cost / basic service airline, with a lower standard of pilot.
I've flown with pilots who've come from Ryanair, easyJet, BA, Monarch, Thomson, Wizz...to name a few, and they're all a similar product in terms of how they operate. Obviously there's variance to this standard; some are clearly better than others, show good command potential, have more initiative etc, but the recruitment and subsequent training system, has enabled this.
What disappoints me is the flack that Ryanair gets, whereby the general public associate a low cost / basic service airline, with a lower standard of pilot.
2xChevrons said:
By all accounts its hardly a very employee-centric or empathic place to work. The pilots are treated as interchangeable cogs that, like the aircraft, are there to be used as efficiently as possible and to have full productivity extracted from them, and it can be a rather draining experience.
Friends flying for non Ryaniar carriers would attest to this... Loads of little details, for example (from what I am told) Ryanair pilots have to pay for their own parking at the airport, or own travel to the airport, other carriers pay for car parking. Ryanair pilots are paid from doors shut to doors open, other carriers are paid for every moment from arrival at the airport to leaving again.
No doubt there are some Ryanair pilots on here, and please feel free to correct me, but their reputation certainly isn't one of being especially generous to their staff!
Condi said:
Friends flying for non Ryaniar carriers would attest to this...
Loads of little details, for example (from what I am told) Ryanair pilots have to pay for their own parking at the airport, or own travel to the airport, other carriers pay for car parking. Ryanair pilots are paid from doors shut to doors open, other carriers are paid for every moment from arrival at the airport to leaving again.
No doubt there are some Ryanair pilots on here, and please feel free to correct me, but their reputation certainly isn't one of being especially generous to their staff!
I think it’s a bit like with being one their passengers; you know the deal when you sign up for it. As a passenger you know it’s cheap and cheerful but safe and reliable. As a pilot you know you’ll be worked to the bone, seen as just a number and have to pay for your own cup of tea, but you know that the salary and experience is good enough to offset that. Loads of little details, for example (from what I am told) Ryanair pilots have to pay for their own parking at the airport, or own travel to the airport, other carriers pay for car parking. Ryanair pilots are paid from doors shut to doors open, other carriers are paid for every moment from arrival at the airport to leaving again.
No doubt there are some Ryanair pilots on here, and please feel free to correct me, but their reputation certainly isn't one of being especially generous to their staff!
We’ve got a fair few ex-Ryanair at our place and I can’t say a bad thing about any of them - they’re all very competent. They don’t go on about how much they hate their previous employer so I assume they still respect them for what they are.
I'm an ex-RYR pilot. I left quite a few years ago now and as far as I can work out, RYR has changed quite a bit since I was there. While I can't say I look back all that fondly about the company, they used me as a cog in their system to fly their aircraft however I used them as a stepping stone to progress onwards to bigger and better things.
The one thing I will say is that their training is indeed first class. It has to be however; lots of pilots from all over the globe, different cultures, languages etc., but everyone has to operate to the SOP framework set by RYR. The procedures were robust and that was necessary, it's why they have a very, very good safety record despite the size of the airline and the number of low-hour pilots.
The one thing I will say is that their training is indeed first class. It has to be however; lots of pilots from all over the globe, different cultures, languages etc., but everyone has to operate to the SOP framework set by RYR. The procedures were robust and that was necessary, it's why they have a very, very good safety record despite the size of the airline and the number of low-hour pilots.
UK_Scat_Pack said:
It s simply down to Ryanair having the youngest and most inexperienced pilots. Inexperienced pilots=harder landings. They are by far the biggest recruiter of newly qualified airline pilots. As soon as most get their required experience, then quickly move onto the major airlines. While big thread about this in Pprune. And been discussed to death on internet forums. It s definately a thing though. I ve flown on B737 s around the world and none of them have ever been as worse as Ryanair s!
Sorry but that's just not true. Even as a wet behind the ears PPL I can decide whether I want a long greasy landing when I have oodles of runway or whether I want to just get down due to a short runway or because I need to vacate asap as there's traffic behind me. The airlines won't have commercially qualified pilots who have done literally thousands of hours of flying before getting anywhere near a B737 yoke, doing crap landings because they are still learning how to do a decent landing.The reasons have been discussed above, and as a retired long haul captain said to me, shorthaul low cost carrier pilots are generally doing many, many takeoffs and landings per month, and often in significantly different weather conditions with more pressures/workload compared to a very experienced long haul pilot doing the same old route to somewhere the sun is always shining.
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