Chinese military aircraft
Discussion
I came across this assessment of Chinese military aircraft. 18 min.
https://youtu.be/7mu8S-1yyfQ?feature=shared
Is it an accurate assessment or unjustified assumptions?
Just curious, no knowledge in this area
https://youtu.be/7mu8S-1yyfQ?feature=shared
Is it an accurate assessment or unjustified assumptions?
Just curious, no knowledge in this area
There is a mix of capabilities in their ORBAT, some decent, some just old soviet tech detailed as AMRAAM sponges. Same for their pilots.
Here are some RAND reports from my archive which might be worth looking at (when I say 'my' I don't mean I contributed to them, just I have them to hand):
Chinese Attacks on U.S. Air Bases in Asia
China's Long-Range Bomber Flights
War with China
Overview of People's Liberation Army Air Force "Elite Pilots"
Here are some RAND reports from my archive which might be worth looking at (when I say 'my' I don't mean I contributed to them, just I have them to hand):
Chinese Attacks on U.S. Air Bases in Asia
China's Long-Range Bomber Flights
War with China
Overview of People's Liberation Army Air Force "Elite Pilots"
bergclimber34 said:
Are they any good or are they Russian parts bin specials?
We're not likely to know the answer to that until China makes it's play for Taiwan.However, for what ever reasons, very few countries seem to want to buy China's latest gen combat aircraft, and it hasn't been for the lack of trying to flog them on China's part, but, they've had very few takers.
bergclimber34 said:
Are they any good or are they Russian parts bin specials?
They have serious issues with metallurgy. They have never been able to get the metals right on engine production and continue to struggle with it meaning any engines they produce are extremely unreliable. For the same reasons as their lack of orders for their military aircraft, they will struggle for orders for their new civil passenger aircraft. Fascinating stuff. I did not know this was a reason.
I find that staggering considering the industry they are involved in, they are doing pretty well with cars (EV only their ICE stuff was garbage) but I guess planes are something they are getting into much later. Especially military whereas the West has been refining its industry since the war where it was propelled massively. And several wars since obviously, something the Chinese have not had to deal with and react.
The Russians seemingly kept up as much as they could by spying! Surely the Chinese are doing the same?
I find that staggering considering the industry they are involved in, they are doing pretty well with cars (EV only their ICE stuff was garbage) but I guess planes are something they are getting into much later. Especially military whereas the West has been refining its industry since the war where it was propelled massively. And several wars since obviously, something the Chinese have not had to deal with and react.
The Russians seemingly kept up as much as they could by spying! Surely the Chinese are doing the same?
bergclimber34 said:
Fascinating stuff. I did not know this was a reason.
I find that staggering considering the industry they are involved in, they are doing pretty well with cars (EV only their ICE stuff was garbage) but I guess planes are something they are getting into much later. Especially military whereas the West has been refining its industry since the war where it was propelled massively. And several wars since obviously, something the Chinese have not had to deal with and react.
The Russians seemingly kept up as much as they could by spying! Surely the Chinese are doing the same?
If you rely on imitation, by definition you will always be one step behind the innovators.I find that staggering considering the industry they are involved in, they are doing pretty well with cars (EV only their ICE stuff was garbage) but I guess planes are something they are getting into much later. Especially military whereas the West has been refining its industry since the war where it was propelled massively. And several wars since obviously, something the Chinese have not had to deal with and react.
The Russians seemingly kept up as much as they could by spying! Surely the Chinese are doing the same?
So they can’t make engines that stay in one piece or aircraft that anyone wants to buy, but there’s still speculation that the drones over the US and UK are Chinese or Russian. Or have the Chinese been putting all their R&D into drones because removing the fleshy bit is clearly the future?
It's quite well known they struggle in areas like engine production but every generation is a leap forward for them. For the first time they are now considered leaders in a few small areas. I think when they do go for Taiwan they will learn some hard lessons in the early days especially if America steps in.
Part of the reason the British military is so effective is because we've been scrapping non stop for about a thousand years. We're excellent at learning from past conflicts. The Chinese don't have any to learn from.
Part of the reason the British military is so effective is because we've been scrapping non stop for about a thousand years. We're excellent at learning from past conflicts. The Chinese don't have any to learn from.
CLK-GTR said:
Part of the reason the British military is so effective is because we've been scrapping non stop for about a thousand years. We're excellent at learning from past conflicts. The Chinese don't have any to learn from.
Well not since WW2 and the post WW2 civil war and then their heavy involvement in the Korean War.But.......even Korea is pretty much out of effective practical memory for their military, and other than likely some behind the scenes meddling in Vietnam, they have no real experience in modern warfare.
Its a shame that there's been enough ex-NATO pilots that have been tempted by the lure of lots of cash to help train their airforce in modern air combat and NATO tactics in recent years, including a number of well known ex-RAF pilots, one of whom has recently been sanctioned by the USA as a result.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, China are surely doing the same as the Russis did in the 60's and 70's, in terms of placing spies in companies and placing highly educated people into them too?
But it seems even while doing this they cannot work out how to get certain things right.
I recall watching a clip of a Chinese fighter a few years back, looked great, was a bit slow turning, but the tell tale sign was the engines, they smoked like crazy what other fighter do you know of from maybe the last 30 years from the East has engines that smoke like crazy, Mig 29. of course, so this thing that looks great is using basically a 30 odd year old engine!
But it seems even while doing this they cannot work out how to get certain things right.
I recall watching a clip of a Chinese fighter a few years back, looked great, was a bit slow turning, but the tell tale sign was the engines, they smoked like crazy what other fighter do you know of from maybe the last 30 years from the East has engines that smoke like crazy, Mig 29. of course, so this thing that looks great is using basically a 30 odd year old engine!
bergclimber34 said:
I recall watching a clip of a Chinese fighter a few years back, looked great, was a bit slow turning, but the tell tale sign was the engines, they smoked like crazy what other fighter do you know of from maybe the last 30 years from the East has engines that smoke like crazy, Mig 29. of course, so this thing that looks great is using basically a 30 odd year old engine!
None of the latest Chinese fighter types being displayed at the big Zhuhai airshow in southern China last month showed any sign of smokey engines.I was talking about 10 or so years ago when they were first really seen, I do not keep up routinely with the industry current.
I did just watch some interesting stuff about the topic though.
Apparently when Shenyang licence built 27's by the end of this they were getting in trouble with the Russians as a large number of parts in the later planes being built were being built with Chinese sourced materials and subtly different designs, including engines.
The footage I was talking about was initial flights from the early 5th gen stuff, some of it cancelled.
I did just watch some interesting stuff about the topic though.
Apparently when Shenyang licence built 27's by the end of this they were getting in trouble with the Russians as a large number of parts in the later planes being built were being built with Chinese sourced materials and subtly different designs, including engines.
The footage I was talking about was initial flights from the early 5th gen stuff, some of it cancelled.
bergclimber34 said:
I was talking about 10 or so years ago when they were first really seen, I do not keep up routinely with the industry current.
I did just watch some interesting stuff about the topic though.
Apparently when Shenyang licence built 27's by the end of this they were getting in trouble with the Russians as a large number of parts in the later planes being built were being built with Chinese sourced materials and subtly different designs, including engines.
The footage I was talking about was initial flights from the early 5th gen stuff, some of it cancelled.
The pace of their development over the past decade has been significant.I did just watch some interesting stuff about the topic though.
Apparently when Shenyang licence built 27's by the end of this they were getting in trouble with the Russians as a large number of parts in the later planes being built were being built with Chinese sourced materials and subtly different designs, including engines.
The footage I was talking about was initial flights from the early 5th gen stuff, some of it cancelled.
Its almost certain that China are now ahead of Russian in what they are designing and producing.
Southerner said:
aeropilot said:
The pace of their development over the past decade has been significant.
Its almost certain that China are now ahead of Russian in what they are designing and producing.
Ahead of Russia? So they’ve made it into the 1970s then? Its almost certain that China are now ahead of Russian in what they are designing and producing.
Yeah, but Russia/USSR have been in the game for 70 years, and China, realistically for less than half that time as western corporations have naively opened their doors to Chinese development.
aeropilot said:
Yeah, but Russia/USSR have been in the game for 70 years, and China, realistically for less than half that time as western corporations have naively opened their doors to Chinese development.
And China has all our money because we buy all our stuff from them because our own products are too expensive for us to afford.200 years ago Britain got rich and powerful by being the workshop of the world, now China is.
aeropilot said:
bergclimber34 said:
I recall watching a clip of a Chinese fighter a few years back, looked great, was a bit slow turning, but the tell tale sign was the engines, they smoked like crazy what other fighter do you know of from maybe the last 30 years from the East has engines that smoke like crazy, Mig 29. of course, so this thing that looks great is using basically a 30 odd year old engine!
None of the latest Chinese fighter types being displayed at the big Zhuhai airshow in southern China last month showed any sign of smokey engines.Edit My aviation experience - I flew on a plane to Krakow recenty
Found another one. It explains in detail why Saudi Arabia went for western military hardware, rejecting chinese made. Even the chinese military will not buy their own J.35. Other defence, drones, military and geopolitics covered. 16 min.
https://youtu.be/y6xHkrFwPLQ?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/y6xHkrFwPLQ?feature=shared
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