ATR 72 crash in Brazil
Discussion
I’m sitting here writing this in a 777 somewhere over the Indian Ocean having just been on an ATR 72 from Koh Samui to Phuket earlier today.
I’ve always thought it was a strange looking aircraft with highly efficient wings hence the odd ration of size and shape against fuselage but it’s seems to do the job OK.
Today in São Paulo an ATR 72 appears to have literally flat spinned out of the sky from altitude and what a very scary video it is too.
link here
Ignoring the typical DM rubbish about max height they can fly at (we were at 14500ft for example), how on earth does any aircraft flat spin from altitude into the ground like this one did?
RIP to all those on board.
I’ve always thought it was a strange looking aircraft with highly efficient wings hence the odd ration of size and shape against fuselage but it’s seems to do the job OK.
Today in São Paulo an ATR 72 appears to have literally flat spinned out of the sky from altitude and what a very scary video it is too.
link here
Ignoring the typical DM rubbish about max height they can fly at (we were at 14500ft for example), how on earth does any aircraft flat spin from altitude into the ground like this one did?
RIP to all those on board.
That is a very scary video. Thoughts are with the families of the passengers & crew.
The aircraft appears to be completely intact, with 2 engines, 2 props, no flames, no obvious structural issues at all. So why would it be in a flat spin? I’m not a pilot, I’m certainly no expert, and wouldn’t pretend to be, but my first thought would be an unrecoverable stall. I might be completely wrong, of course.
The ATR-72 is a modern regional airliner made by Airbus in Toulouse. They are widely operated around the world, including in the U.K.
The aircraft appears to be completely intact, with 2 engines, 2 props, no flames, no obvious structural issues at all. So why would it be in a flat spin? I’m not a pilot, I’m certainly no expert, and wouldn’t pretend to be, but my first thought would be an unrecoverable stall. I might be completely wrong, of course.
The ATR-72 is a modern regional airliner made by Airbus in Toulouse. They are widely operated around the world, including in the U.K.
HoHoHo said:
I’m sitting here writing this in a 777 somewhere over the Indian Ocean having just been on an ATR 72 from Koh Samui to Phuket earlier today.
I’ve always thought it was a strange looking aircraft with highly efficient wings hence the odd ration of size and shape against fuselage but it’s seems to do the job OK.
Today in São Paulo an ATR 72 appears to have literally flat spinned out of the sky from altitude and what a very scary video it is too.
link here
Ignoring the typical DM rubbish about max height they can fly at (we were at 14500ft for example), how on earth does any aircraft flat spin from altitude into the ground like this one did?
RIP to all those on board.
That does seem to be the only available conclusion from the video footage. ATRs have a very efficient wing but as a result are regarded as more prone to icing, my admittedly weak grasp of aviation meteorology doesn't seem to suggest that as an obvious cause given the aircraft has the necessary equipment, but not impossible as there was overcast. There are so many other potential causes it seems a bit pointless speculating beyond that it was loss of controlled flight.I’ve always thought it was a strange looking aircraft with highly efficient wings hence the odd ration of size and shape against fuselage but it’s seems to do the job OK.
Today in São Paulo an ATR 72 appears to have literally flat spinned out of the sky from altitude and what a very scary video it is too.
link here
Ignoring the typical DM rubbish about max height they can fly at (we were at 14500ft for example), how on earth does any aircraft flat spin from altitude into the ground like this one did?
RIP to all those on board.
ASN report
Edited by hidetheelephants on Friday 9th August 20:19
Just follow the PPReNe thread .. https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/66078...
That’s interesting.
What’s even more interesting, as we were leaving the aircraft today I noticed some small damage to the port side black boot on the front of the wing and I thought about our aircraft, what if they needed to de-ice the wings……I was going to take a good photo but didn’t!
I’ve looked through those I took as we approached the aircraft and I don’t have a clear shot of the damage which is a shame - I do have one showing the port wing but it’s taken too far away to see the damage as clearly as I could. There is also another small area of damage to the right of the red circle which you may also be able to see. I’m adding they looked like rips, not something that looked like it should be there (to me anyway).
I guess ice building up on the wings isn’t a good idea (speculating here on my part of course).
What’s even more interesting, as we were leaving the aircraft today I noticed some small damage to the port side black boot on the front of the wing and I thought about our aircraft, what if they needed to de-ice the wings……I was going to take a good photo but didn’t!
I’ve looked through those I took as we approached the aircraft and I don’t have a clear shot of the damage which is a shame - I do have one showing the port wing but it’s taken too far away to see the damage as clearly as I could. There is also another small area of damage to the right of the red circle which you may also be able to see. I’m adding they looked like rips, not something that looked like it should be there (to me anyway).
I guess ice building up on the wings isn’t a good idea (speculating here on my part of course).
Edited by HoHoHo on Friday 9th August 20:29
Edited by HoHoHo on Saturday 10th August 03:16
Sounds like the engines were at WOT on the way down. Horrible noise.
I can only imagine what that was like for the pax.
It does appear its departed level flight and come pretty much straight down.
I guess at 17000ft you dont have much time to sort out big problems and if control surfaces / wings are not doing what you expect its worse.
The area it went down is fairly high too, probably 3000ft AMSL. So pilots might have only had 10,000ft to recover, secondary stalls etc and spins... its not much space.
I can only imagine what that was like for the pax.
It does appear its departed level flight and come pretty much straight down.
I guess at 17000ft you dont have much time to sort out big problems and if control surfaces / wings are not doing what you expect its worse.
The area it went down is fairly high too, probably 3000ft AMSL. So pilots might have only had 10,000ft to recover, secondary stalls etc and spins... its not much space.
Silver3ides said:
Just follow the PPReNe thread .. https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/66078...
Interesting that the met report quoted specifically has a warning about icing conditions; the one I found was obviously b
ks. HoHoHo said:
That’s interesting.
What’s even more interesting, as we were leaving the aircraft today I noticed some small damage to the port side black boot on the front of the wing and I thought about our aircraft, what if they needed to de-ice the wings……I was going to take a good photo but didn’t!
I’ve looked through those I took as we approached the aircraft and I don’t have a clear shot of the damage which is a shame - I do have one showing the port wing but it’s taken too far away to see the damage as clearly as I could. There is also another small area of damage to the right of the red circle which you may also be able to see. I’m adding they looked like rips, not something that looked like it should be there (to me anyway).
Those will be patch repairs for the leading edge de-ice boots, they are glued on to repair holes in the original material of the leading edge usually caused by impact damage. They will be peeling off and just require replacement. If the hole is big enough, the boot at that particular leading edge segment won't fully inflate and the pilots will receive an indication.What’s even more interesting, as we were leaving the aircraft today I noticed some small damage to the port side black boot on the front of the wing and I thought about our aircraft, what if they needed to de-ice the wings……I was going to take a good photo but didn’t!
I’ve looked through those I took as we approached the aircraft and I don’t have a clear shot of the damage which is a shame - I do have one showing the port wing but it’s taken too far away to see the damage as clearly as I could. There is also another small area of damage to the right of the red circle which you may also be able to see. I’m adding they looked like rips, not something that looked like it should be there (to me anyway).
Edited by HoHoHo on Friday 9th August 20:29
Edited by HoHoHo on Saturday 10th August 03:16
I flew ATR’s for a couple of years. They got a bit of a rep for icing, but mainly down to mismanagement of the aircraft in icing conditions. Because of the design of the ATR, it spends a lot of its flying life in icing levels, simply because, it can’t fly any higher than 25,000’ on a good day!
Any aircraft can end up in a loss of control situation if not correctly managed in icing conditions. The de-icing boots on the ATR are very impressive, and effectively change the shape of the leading edge of the wing to break up the ice formed on it. Severe icing is a bit different, and I’ve only experienced it once in the ATR and it simply involved a call to air traffic control to descend to a lower / warmer level, or just escape the icing conditions altogether (clear air).
As for any defects to the icing boots, depending on the serviceability of the boots, the aircraft could be permitted to fly, but part of the stipulation would be that it avoided icing conditions.
As for this accident, very hard to say what caused it, but it’s likely they’ll find out thanks to the data and cockpit voice recorders being intact.
Any aircraft can end up in a loss of control situation if not correctly managed in icing conditions. The de-icing boots on the ATR are very impressive, and effectively change the shape of the leading edge of the wing to break up the ice formed on it. Severe icing is a bit different, and I’ve only experienced it once in the ATR and it simply involved a call to air traffic control to descend to a lower / warmer level, or just escape the icing conditions altogether (clear air).
As for any defects to the icing boots, depending on the serviceability of the boots, the aircraft could be permitted to fly, but part of the stipulation would be that it avoided icing conditions.
As for this accident, very hard to say what caused it, but it’s likely they’ll find out thanks to the data and cockpit voice recorders being intact.
3 previous ATR-72 crashes have been attributed to icing conditions.....
And with the weather warnings prior to this flight, and evidence of icing of other aircraft landing at Sao Paulo same day, there has to be a high probability of this being No.4.
Grim final minute or so for the passengers and crew
And with the weather warnings prior to this flight, and evidence of icing of other aircraft landing at Sao Paulo same day, there has to be a high probability of this being No.4.
Grim final minute or so for the passengers and crew
Eric Mc said:
How does the ATR family compare with similar aircraft, such as the Dash 8 family?
Not sure, Eric. From memory the Q400’s that Flybe were flying around at the time were slightly larger than the 42’s and possibly the 72’s, and had a bit more grunt as a result.Delving more in to the memory bank; the ATR had Three levels of Icing Protection:
Level 1 was your standard Pitot, AoA and window heating
Level 2 was anti-icing (when in known icing conditions)
Level 3 was de-icing - you’d get an aural warning for this, but you still had to manually select it on.
They fly as long as air is going over them. Once that stops, gravity takes over. I’m pretty sure they teach pilots spins at high altitudes so they have time to recover. There’s definitely been instances where that doesn’t happen and they’ve had to bail out, you can’t do that in a passenger plane.
croyde said:
fking hell! What an awful way to to
Obviously I'm not a pilot but can't most planes just glide rather than fall?
Gliding is controlled flight without power.....so to be able to glide the pilot needs to have control of the aircraft......this aircraft had departed from controlled flight, and clearly they were unable to regain control. 5150 will be able to explain being an ex. ATR pilot, but from what I've read, it seems the design of this aircraft is such that once entered into a spin condition, this aircraft is not very easily/not able to be recovered into controlled flight.king hell! What an awful way to to Obviously I'm not a pilot but can't most planes just glide rather than fall?
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