Discussion
Great news everyone, the Royal Jordanian Falcons will be back, again, so everyone has a clear 40 minutes or so to get some food, browse the statics and shops without missing anything interesting.
FFS RIAT more fast jets display teams not these yawn inducers! (although I'm sure what they do take a lot of skill, its just so boring).
FFS RIAT more fast jets display teams not these yawn inducers! (although I'm sure what they do take a lot of skill, its just so boring).
The Jordanians are a great display team & their display is very good, it's sad (and tragic imho) for people hold this opinion.
They're stalwarts of the show, even more so for this year, RIAT wouldn't be RIAT without the Jordanians, remember not many people tried to fly last year on the Friday but the RJF did and do most years if the weather is bad not to mention the special tails schemes they do every year for RIAT & their European season
They're stalwarts of the show, even more so for this year, RIAT wouldn't be RIAT without the Jordanians, remember not many people tried to fly last year on the Friday but the RJF did and do most years if the weather is bad not to mention the special tails schemes they do every year for RIAT & their European season
zsdom said:
The Jordanians are a great display team & their display is very good, it's sad (and tragic imho) for people hold this opinion.
They're stalwarts of the show, even more so for this year, RIAT wouldn't be RIAT without the Jordanians, remember not many people tried to fly last year on the Friday but the RJF did and do most years if the weather is bad not to mention the special tails schemes they do every year for RIAT & their European season
Call me a tragic its tedious. no one pays any attention to it other than the care in the community anoraks.They're stalwarts of the show, even more so for this year, RIAT wouldn't be RIAT without the Jordanians, remember not many people tried to fly last year on the Friday but the RJF did and do most years if the weather is bad not to mention the special tails schemes they do every year for RIAT & their European season
zsdom said:
The Jordanians are a great display team & their display is very good, it's sad (and tragic imho) for people hold this opinion.
They're stalwarts of the show, even more so for this year, RIAT wouldn't be RIAT without the Jordanians, remember not many people tried to fly last year on the Friday but the RJF did and do most years if the weather is bad not to mention the special tails schemes they do every year for RIAT & their European season
+1They're stalwarts of the show, even more so for this year, RIAT wouldn't be RIAT without the Jordanians, remember not many people tried to fly last year on the Friday but the RJF did and do most years if the weather is bad not to mention the special tails schemes they do every year for RIAT & their European season
Another fan of the Falcons, great displays, really nice individuals and also got to watch them put on a display in Aqaba where they were flying below the hotels windows
I would rather see them than the Red’s, best of the bunch though is the Italians.
ecsrobin said:
zsdom said:
The Jordanians are a great display team & their display is very good, it's sad (and tragic imho) for people hold this opinion.
They're stalwarts of the show, even more so for this year, RIAT wouldn't be RIAT without the Jordanians, remember not many people tried to fly last year on the Friday but the RJF did and do most years if the weather is bad not to mention the special tails schemes they do every year for RIAT & their European season
+1They're stalwarts of the show, even more so for this year, RIAT wouldn't be RIAT without the Jordanians, remember not many people tried to fly last year on the Friday but the RJF did and do most years if the weather is bad not to mention the special tails schemes they do every year for RIAT & their European season
Another fan of the Falcons, great displays, really nice individuals and also got to watch them put on a display in Aqaba where they were flying below the hotels windows
I would rather see them than the Red’s, best of the bunch though is the Italians.
zsdom said:
The Jordanians are a great display team & their display is very good, it's sad (and tragic imho) for people hold this opinion.
Why are you saying it is sad? It is their opinion and they are entitled to it. What I find sad is those that belittle others just because it goes against their own opinion. I for one also think the Falcons are boring so that's 2 of us that are 'sad'.wolfie28 said:
zsdom said:
The Jordanians are a great display team & their display is very good, it's sad (and tragic imho) for people hold this opinion.
Why are you saying it is sad? It is their opinion and they are entitled to it. What I find sad is those that belittle others just because it goes against their own opinion. I for one also think the Falcons are boring so that's 2 of us that are 'sad'.https://on.soundcloud.com/jfnhs6Ub1hMWHc3j7
wolfie28 said:
zsdom said:
The Jordanians are a great display team & their display is very good, it's sad (and tragic imho) for people hold this opinion.
Why are you saying it is sad? It is their opinion and they are entitled to it. What I find sad is those that belittle others just because it goes against their own opinion. I for one also think the Falcons are boring so that's 2 of us that are 'sad'.I just can't get excited about any current formation display team......and haven't since the Swiss stopped flying the Hunter.
My days of attending RIAT are sadly long gone, so it doesn't really matter what I think anyway.
SmithCorona said:
Reality is, very little of the old, smoky and loud is on flying display at RIAT any more.
This.USAFE don't have any of the latest, coolest toys, or if they do they're not displaying anymore.
SAC haven't sent anything fun over for a long time (a single pass from the B2 doesn't count, especially as I didn't go that year), and the B52 was grounded last year due to the weather.
USN have never really bothered with RIAT.
...and moving onto Europe, the pace of fighter development / replacement has become glacial - I remember the prototype Rafale displaying (& the EAP, which was sort-of development aiframe 1 for the Typhoon) when I was a child, FFS! And I don't want to think about how long ago that was.
I saw the Draken last month and that was a real "cool" moment - not because the display was high-energy or inspiring, but because it looked like a fighter should, was bloody loud, and kicked out a dozen shock-diamonds every time it engaged reheat. I remember either RIAT or Farnborough where something set of half the car alarms in the car park - THAT is what we're missing!
SmithCorona said:
Doesn't stop me though - so let's embrace what is there.
I guess. Ish.The Rafale and Gripen DO put on very good displays in fairness, the Typhoon has done so recently, and there's usually an F18 driver around to do something decent, but I've not seen an F16 display that's really shown what the (near-50y.o.) airframe can do. And there's only so many decades you can watch that lot for before it becomes samey.
Edit: I think airshows are likely to be a dying phenomena.
- Most of the people who enjoy (WW1/WW2) warbirds displays are getting on - Gen-X or older - the sort who had parents/grandparents in WW2, who built model kits as a child and remember the good old days of airshows. There's still plenty of interest in keeping airframes flying, but in 10 years or so I think attendances will be low enough that most warbird airshows will be unviable - as a pure WW2-style airshow (Duxford / Sywell / etc.)
- The modern shows like RIAT attract big crowds but the repeat attendees are also thinning-out, as there's not enough "new" there year on year - the Me262 and B52 were unusual last year and they're looking backwards not forwards, and their displays got f'd up by the weather anyway.
- I don't see kids nowadays as being into model-building, nor 'wargaming' (whether playground, computer or other), so where's the emotional hook for them? Like motorsport, only 100x less attainable.
...so unless someone can dredge-up (and be given licences to fly) 60s/70s era fast jets to show something different (which even then might only be a sticking plaster), what's left? "Family friendly" events, display teams, or hopefully more competition (but that's another nightmare - licencing issues have scuppered Red Bull in a lot of places, and Europe doesn't have a lot of space like the USA).
Edited by havoc on Saturday 22 June 21:37
havoc said:
Edit: I think airshows are likely to be a dying phenomena.
- Most of the people who enjoy (WW1/WW2) warbirds displays are getting on - Gen-X or older - the sort who had parents/grandparents in WW2, who built model kits as a child and remember the good old days of airshows. There's still plenty of interest in keeping airframes flying, but in 10 years or so I think attendances will be low enough that most warbird airshows will be unviable - as a pure WW2-style airshow (Duxford / Sywell / etc.)
- The modern shows like RIAT attract big crowds but the repeat attendees are also thinning-out, as there's not enough "new" there year on year - the Me262 and B52 were unusual last year and they're looking backwards not forwards, and their displays got f'd up by the weather anyway.
- I don't see kids nowadays as being into model-building, nor 'wargaming' (whether playground, computer or other), so where's the emotional hook for them? Like motorsport, only 100x less attainable.
...so unless someone can dredge-up (and be given licences to fly) 60s/70s era fast jets to show something different (which even then might only be a sticking plaster), what's left? "Family friendly" events, display teams, or hopefully more competition (but that's another nightmare - licencing issues have scuppered Red Bull in a lot of places, and Europe doesn't have a lot of space like the USA).
My children still enjoy the shows, the boy builds model aircraft, and has a genuine interest. Not all kids are stuck in front of a tablet everyday. It's a bit of a tired trope, and if that is your kids, then as a parent, you need to make more of an effort, it is not their failing.
Generally we only get to RIAT and a couple of the Shuttleworth or Duxford ones each year. Shuttleworth is brilliant for children, especially younger ones as it is far less crowded, there are other interesting things to look at, vintage cars, buses, etc. and due to the nature of the aircraft exhibiting, you feel far closer to the action.
You are right that innovation in design has slowed, as combat aircraft are far more about the underlying sensor tech than the physical performance, so platforms can be upgraded time and time again, unlike in the 50s/60s/70s when manufacturers were constantly chasing better performance and EM diagrams ruled the skies.
Anyway, it's easy to be nostalgic, be it air shows, motorsport, football, whatever. It's just human nature. I'm sure my kids will feel the same way about the these displays in the 2040s when they take their own children.
I remember going to airshows in the 70's and 80's where there always seemed to be an ever changing rotation of planes flying with roots back to the mid 1950's.
But thinking about it, a lot of the planes were designed and built by a wide variety of manufacturers many of whom had designers who'd worked on stuff during the war. The cost of development of a new aircraft was significantly cheaper (tens of millions in comparison to tens of billions now). Government requirements were for things like a fast interceptor, fighter, fighter bomber, low level bomber, strategic bomber, strategic reconnaissance, all weather interceptor, all weather fighter, light fighter etc etc.
Since the 1980s there have been mergers and mergers of mergers until there were only a handful of manufacturers still in business. Government requirements have changed from specific tasks to multirole and the development costs have correspondingly soared. Planes are now designed with upgrading in mind and have an expected life of 30, 40 or possibly even 50 years. Most of the stuff coming out in the 50's and 60's was probably expected to have a 10-20 year life before being superseded by something newer.
The threat landscape has changed too as we no longer have a single big block to worry about (USSR) but multiple small actors in multiple regions which necessitates a more flexible design philosophy.
I do have fond memories of being sat on Dad's shoulders whilst a Vulcan did a low pass and then pulled up hard or the time when the Lightning 'stood on its tail' or when the Red Arrows flew so low I could only see the tail fin flash past but not the actual plane. Accidents and 'elf and safe-t' means that those days are sadly long behind us.
But thinking about it, a lot of the planes were designed and built by a wide variety of manufacturers many of whom had designers who'd worked on stuff during the war. The cost of development of a new aircraft was significantly cheaper (tens of millions in comparison to tens of billions now). Government requirements were for things like a fast interceptor, fighter, fighter bomber, low level bomber, strategic bomber, strategic reconnaissance, all weather interceptor, all weather fighter, light fighter etc etc.
Since the 1980s there have been mergers and mergers of mergers until there were only a handful of manufacturers still in business. Government requirements have changed from specific tasks to multirole and the development costs have correspondingly soared. Planes are now designed with upgrading in mind and have an expected life of 30, 40 or possibly even 50 years. Most of the stuff coming out in the 50's and 60's was probably expected to have a 10-20 year life before being superseded by something newer.
The threat landscape has changed too as we no longer have a single big block to worry about (USSR) but multiple small actors in multiple regions which necessitates a more flexible design philosophy.
I do have fond memories of being sat on Dad's shoulders whilst a Vulcan did a low pass and then pulled up hard or the time when the Lightning 'stood on its tail' or when the Red Arrows flew so low I could only see the tail fin flash past but not the actual plane. Accidents and 'elf and safe-t' means that those days are sadly long behind us.
RustyMX5 said:
Accidents and 'elf and safe-t' means that those days are sadly long behind us.
That said, I DO feel that the display line is now too far away at UK airshows. It's not that bad in the US, and not only from a specating perspective - from a photography perspective, even with a 400mm lens on a cropped sensor (best you're going to get without spending megabucks on lenses and having some serious upper body strength), you're only JUST getting enough plane in the shot.
Sywell today and half the displays were so far away there was little point trying to take photos, you just looked at the planes heading away from you or half way down the display line. RIAT last year was only better because modern jets are 2x the size.
Remember my first proper airshow, travelling with the Midland Counties Aviation Society - used to produce a little magazine every couple of months or so containing the regs of all the aircraft that had passed though Elmdon in the period - from Birmingham to Mildenhall in 1978. I thought I was in America. And the aircraft!
Trevatanus said:
Just seen that they are doing a U2 demo this year, launch and recovery, which is a very unique thing to see!
Maybe for the last time as well...?The Pentagon/USAF have been trying to retire the U-2 since the early 2000's, and it keeps getting a stay of execution, but again there are rumours abound that it might be for the chop in 2025.....perhaps this U-2 demo announcement as a Fairford farewell, is a tacit admission that the rumour might end up being true this time?
Hope not, would prefer to see it as evidence that they'll fly it for another decade or more.
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