Why are we so bad at maintaining our marine heritage?

[dhutch]

On story of a huge number.

Liverpool museum are currently cutting up and scrapping a 1917 Schooner to make way for an 'experimental instalation' to house a space for contemplation and reflection

National Museums Liverpool said cost of repairs and continual maintenance is unsustainable. Yet the contract to 'Dismantle and Dispose' will cost between £150,000 - £200,000!

De Wadden is one of only three surviving Irish Sea schooners and the last trading sailing ship to use the port of Liverpool.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0vxq5e94zjo

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/de-wadden

https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/gallery-nml-unvei...

[sherman]

Must be a Liverpool thing?

BBC News - Urgent RRS Discovery repair work given £1.4m funding boost
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-cen...

https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/2354948...

https://uk.boats.com/reviews/virgin-atlantic-chall...

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activ...

[paintman]

Does it still exist?
From the BBC link:
"The De Wadden will be added to the National Archive of Historic Vessels and deconstruction is due to take place by the end of 2023."

According to Wiki NML put the tender to dismantle out in Nov 23 with the condition that the successful applicant must complete the dismantling by 31st March 2024.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Wadden

[Ryyy]

Hull maritime are doing a bit tbf

[dhutch]

sherman said:

Must be a Liverpool thing?

I wouldnt say so?

Proceed (Northwich, now scapped)
https://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/11026347....

Cervia (Ramsgate)
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/funding-b...

TID 172 (also Kent) , and 164 isn't much better off.
https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/house-boats-conv...

Sir Walter Scott (Loch Lomond NP)
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18244536.histo...

Egremont (Salcombe) Mersey ferry but no longer in liverpool...
https://liverpoolmiscellany.blogspot.com/2020/08/p...

See also boat yards....
https://narrowboatworld.com/14271-selling-off-more...

Obviously I live in the Northwest so there is a bais to that area, but plenty more I am sure!

[dhutch]

paintman said:

Does it still exist?

Just about. Scrapping her appears to be delayed but in progress.

[Simpo Two]

De Wadden is a Dutch ship. Would the Dutch like to take it back and have a go at restoring it instead?

[hidetheelephants]

Grimsby council allowed the Lincoln Castle to rot on its moorings, then sold it to a scrap merchant rather than let a preservation group attempt to save it, despite being complete and still in reasonable condition compared to the Medway Queen at the time. Drydocks are terrible places to keep museum vessels, the strains put on the hull are not designed for and damage can be caused even if in good condition; they should be kept afloat. Bottom line, rusty old tubs need continuous maintenance and that costs a lot if obtained commercially. Liverpool does seem like an epicentre of forlorn hopes though, the collapse of the Warship Preservation Trust and the general sttiness of Peel Ports meant otherwise intact ships were allowed to sink and/or subsequently be scrapped.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Monday 26th February 15:03

[dhutch]

Simpo Two said:

De Wadden is a Dutch ship

De Wadden is a three-masted auxiliary schooner built in 1917 by Gebr Van Diepen of Waterhuizen, Netherlands.
Following the end of the First World War, De Wadden was sold to Richard Hall of Arklow in the Republic of Ireland. From 1922 to 1961, De Wadden carried bulk cargo from the River Mersey to various Irish ports.

Debatable. Certainly built in the Netherlands, but also worked the majority of here life out of Liverpool.

Was Titanic British or Irish?

[Simpo Two]

dhutch said:

Was Titanic British or Irish?

It was built in Belfast which is NI so it's both.

Regardless of nationality though, if we CBA or can't afford to restore De Wadden but somebody else can, it should go to them.

[dhutch]

I believe some efforts where made to make the vessel available to others, but a bar was set for the requirements to be a 'successful' applicant which none made. Fairly reliable sources tell me that she is far from irreparable, but equally could not be put to sea in her current state.

[ecsrobin]

hidetheelephants said:

Grimsby council allowed the Lincoln Castle to rot on its moorings, then sold it to a scrap merchant rather than let a preservation group attempt to save it, despite being complete and still in reasonable condition compared to the Medway Queen at the time. Drydocks are terrible places to keep museum vessels, the strains put on the hull are not designed for and damage can be caused even if in good condition; they should be kept afloat. Bottom line, rusty old tubs need continuous maintenance and that costs a lot if obtained commercially. Liverpool does seem like an epicentre of forlorn hopes though, the collapse of the Warship Preservation Trust and the general sttiness of Peel Ports meant otherwise intact ships were allowed to sink and/or subsequently be scrapped.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Monday 26th February 15:03

At least the tattershall castle is still afloat. Always visit when in London for a beer or 2.

[hidetheelephants]

dhutch said:

National Museums Liverpool said cost of repairs and continual maintenance is unsustainable. Yet the contract to 'Dismantle and Dispose' will cost between £150,000 - £200,000!

It's remarkable the frequency with which orgs reach this conclusion when the vessel has become a rotten & unsightly st tip, in this case the drydock and surrounds don't seem any better; it rarely happens when a vessel is still in decent nick and fit for use elsewhere.

[Simpo Two]

dhutch said:

National Museums Liverpool said cost of repairs and continual maintenance is unsustainable. Yet the contract to 'Dismantle and Dispose' will cost between £150,000 - £200,000!

County Councils and the like often see things differently from normal people. In this case though, the cost to get rid of it is a one-off, whereas the cost to repair and maintain would be everlasting.

And you have to consider that 'space for contemplation and reflection' sounds trendier than 'looking after an old boat', and that, being cynical for a moment, anything British before about 1950 was something to do with the slave trade (bad) or suffragettes (good). Now if the ship had had an all-female crew back in 1920, you can be fairly sure it would be preserved...!

[OutInTheShed]

The problem is, there's really a pretty big number of 'Manky Auld Boats' and relatively few people excited about putting proper money into looking after them.

I'm fairly interesed in maritme history, but how much am I prepared to pay to look after the UK's stock of MABs?

Also, it's incredibly expensive for museums to look after anything. Whereas your amateur owner would just slap some paint on, everything a museum does involves committees of clingons with arts degrees and a ton of paperwork.

We have too many museums, many of which are too expensive to visit, chasing too few punters

A lot of these old vessels are neither use nor ornament.

[LimaDelta]

OutInTheShed said:

The problem is, there's really a pretty big number of 'Manky Auld Boats' and relatively few people excited about putting proper money into looking after them.

I'm fairly interesed in maritme history, but how much am I prepared to pay to look after the UK's stock of MABs?

This, in a nutshell. How many of these are of interest to the average punter? The Discovery Museum in Newcastle has the Turbinia, which is a genuinely interesting piece of our maritime heritage and represented a seismic shift in the marine industry. HMY Britannia is an undoubted success story and draws a huge number of visitors because of it's obvious Royal heritage and history. PS Waverly is still operating (and the only one in the world), so has that USP. HMS Victory, well the appeal is obvious.

The rest of these other 'historic' vessels are little more than local interest stories, and will always struggle to attract funding. Ships are incredibly costly to maintain, even in a laid-up state.

[essayer]

I'm always a bit regretful they didn't keep at least one battleship from WWII. I know they're ruinous to maintain, but would have been a fantastic part of our heritage

[sherman]

essayer said:

I'm always a bit regretful they didn't keep at least one battleship from WWII. I know they're ruinous to maintain, but would have been a fantastic part of our heritage

Would a light cruiserlike HMS Belfast do for you?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Belfast

[Simpo Two]

LimaDelta said:

This, in a nutshell. How many of these are of interest to the average punter? The Discovery Museum in Newcastle has the Turbinia, which is a genuinely interesting piece of our maritime heritage and represented a seismic shift in the marine industry. HMY Britannia is an undoubted success story and draws a huge number of visitors because of it's obvious Royal heritage and history. PS Waverly is still operating (and the only one in the world), so has that USP. HMS Victory, well the appeal is obvious.

I went on Waverley from Ipswich down to just the other side of Tower Bridge last year. A great boat run like a family business and it goes all round the British Isles. Well worth going on.

Another biggy I'd add to the list is HMS Warrior at Portsmouth - a stupendous restoration and you can tour the whole ship. In fact the naval museum at Portsmouth is a destination in itself.

[dhutch]

LimaDelta said:

The Discovery Museum in Newcastle has the Turbinia, which is a genuinely interesting piece of our maritime heritage...

Yes, and what an amazing exhibit that is.

Although interestingly also nearly lost, London only wanted to save the rear section with the turbines and props, and then planned to scrap that in the 50s. The bow was also saved, but I believe the majority of the rest between is a recreation.

HMS Belfast is also an excellent survivor.

See also PS Waverly, and locally, The Daniel Adamson.
https://www.thedanny.co.uk/