Flight Duty Time
Discussion
I am curious about reports I have seen which do not seem believable.
A cruise company has struggled to find enough planes to get passengers to the Caribbean and back for the Winter season. They have been forced to use a small EU based charter outfit who operate 5 aircraft, mostly A330's with no IFE. Many entitled cruise passengers are horrified at this level of service, and some have decided that a slightly shabby plane is not safe, and are being somewhat irritating.
Travelling back just before Christmas one flight hit clear ait turbulence and was forced to divert for medical help. The plane took some days to be cleared to fly, which further excited the entitled.
Last weekend 2 further planes went tech, causing some chunky delays.
They operated one flight on Friday from Manchester to Barbados and back.
On Saturday they operated to Antigua, with a plane from Gatwick and a separate plane from Manchester. Both flights were around 4.5 hours late into Antigua.
The Gatwick plane night stopped due to crew hours. This was quite badly handled by the cruise company, but it seems clear.
The Manchester flight was going to night stop, but then did not.. The Captain asked passengers to be nice to the crew "as they were tired". Allegedly crew told people they had worked the flight out, had 30 minutes rest and were working the flight back. One crew member had refused and had changed out of uniform and was being passengered back. He was telling colleagues they could loose their license for working over hours
I find it really hard to believe that a) they could do that legally or that b) any crew would risk their livelihood for the sake of an overnight stop.
I do suspect that the crew who flew in to Barbados the previous day had positioned to Antigua and because of the delays were relying on an extension to their duty to operate the flight. But it's just a theory which does not entirely match the reports from the flight.
Any thoughts on this?
A cruise company has struggled to find enough planes to get passengers to the Caribbean and back for the Winter season. They have been forced to use a small EU based charter outfit who operate 5 aircraft, mostly A330's with no IFE. Many entitled cruise passengers are horrified at this level of service, and some have decided that a slightly shabby plane is not safe, and are being somewhat irritating.
Travelling back just before Christmas one flight hit clear ait turbulence and was forced to divert for medical help. The plane took some days to be cleared to fly, which further excited the entitled.
Last weekend 2 further planes went tech, causing some chunky delays.
They operated one flight on Friday from Manchester to Barbados and back.
On Saturday they operated to Antigua, with a plane from Gatwick and a separate plane from Manchester. Both flights were around 4.5 hours late into Antigua.
The Gatwick plane night stopped due to crew hours. This was quite badly handled by the cruise company, but it seems clear.
The Manchester flight was going to night stop, but then did not.. The Captain asked passengers to be nice to the crew "as they were tired". Allegedly crew told people they had worked the flight out, had 30 minutes rest and were working the flight back. One crew member had refused and had changed out of uniform and was being passengered back. He was telling colleagues they could loose their license for working over hours
I find it really hard to believe that a) they could do that legally or that b) any crew would risk their livelihood for the sake of an overnight stop.
I do suspect that the crew who flew in to Barbados the previous day had positioned to Antigua and because of the delays were relying on an extension to their duty to operate the flight. But it's just a theory which does not entirely match the reports from the flight.
Any thoughts on this?
The good old CleverBigCat. Manchester - Antigua is a little over 8 hours.
Although a bit questionable, they could almost about squeeze the return flight in if they have either an additional pilot (which I doubt they did on this specific route), or have fallen back and used their discretion to pull an extra 3 hours duty time. I doubt that the crew, especially if they were TUI crew, would have agreed to this and put themselves at risk.
Saying that though, I have experience with Marella, TUI and their subpar charters, and I really would not be surprised if true. We were bumped from a TUI flight to one operated by Albastar and it was absolutely shocking.
Although a bit questionable, they could almost about squeeze the return flight in if they have either an additional pilot (which I doubt they did on this specific route), or have fallen back and used their discretion to pull an extra 3 hours duty time. I doubt that the crew, especially if they were TUI crew, would have agreed to this and put themselves at risk.
Saying that though, I have experience with Marella, TUI and their subpar charters, and I really would not be surprised if true. We were bumped from a TUI flight to one operated by Albastar and it was absolutely shocking.
The matrix for calculating allowable duty hours is dependant on a number of variables, namely:
Start time of duty
Rest prior to duty
Number of sectors flown
Crew rest
Class of crew rest (Flat bed seat, Bunk etc)
Number of pilots to augment rest
Time zones crossed
Without seeing the full details, transatlantic and back in one duty seems tight, without going in to voluntary overtime, or ‘discretion’, and discretion can not be rostered as part of a duty….it’ there to cover contingencies for unforeseen delays etc.
Start time of duty
Rest prior to duty
Number of sectors flown
Crew rest
Class of crew rest (Flat bed seat, Bunk etc)
Number of pilots to augment rest
Time zones crossed
Without seeing the full details, transatlantic and back in one duty seems tight, without going in to voluntary overtime, or ‘discretion’, and discretion can not be rostered as part of a duty….it’ there to cover contingencies for unforeseen delays etc.
Siko said:
You could always report it confidentially via the CHIRP website.
There is a whole Facebook group determined to stick it to the airline and the cruise company. I'm sure that somebody there will have complained to the CAA. They are quite unpleasant, unrealistic and entitled about it. Woe betide any nervous fliers who come across their group.surveyor said:
Siko said:
You could always report it confidentially via the CHIRP website.
There is a whole Facebook group determined to stick it to the airline and the cruise company. I'm sure that somebody there will have complained to the CAA. They are quite unpleasant, unrealistic and entitled about it. Woe betide any nervous fliers who come across their group.Ooh, i wondered if a post relating to this is on here as i was mixed up in all of this
As regards name/shame, it was reported in the National Press, so think it's safe to confirm that the Cruise Company is P&O, with the Airline being Maleth Aero.
The flight that hit major turbulance en route from BGI-MAN & had to land in Bermuda (several passengers hospitalized over Xmas with a couple being very serious) was the return flight i'd taken out to BGI that morning (Sat 23rd Dec).
The following weekend (we were on the 2 week Xmas & New Year Cruise), the ship had to stay in Antigua overnight (wasn't on the itinerary) & as such missed a Port of Call in Tortola, although P&O did add a Port of Call in Grenada so no doubt save on Compo claims.
Their were many unhappy passengers on the ship who'd expected to be flying Virgin or TUI, but due to lack of available Aircraft were flying Maleth Aero, however i'll be honest, although our flight out to BGI on the 23rd Dec & flight back to MAN on 6th Jan were both delayed 90mins, the flights themselves were fine & given we knew ahead of time Maleth Aircraft have no IFE, we were well prepared.
Edited to add: the Ships Captain did make many announcements as to the Maleth Aero delays into Antigua & it was mentioned that either one or both were further delayed due to crew hours, however i can't recall which flight that related to & if in fact it was both.
As you can imagine, with a Ship full of 5500 British passengers, their was alot of whining & rumours, however the most worrying & i don't know if this is in fact true, was regarding the BGI-MAN that made an emergency landing in Bermuda with many injured passengers & then went Tech due to quite significant damage. The rumour was that Aircraft ahead of the Maleth flight were warning of the turbulence being extreme & as such they were diverting around this area, however Maleth working to a tighter budget, didn't have sufficient fuel to divert & as such had to fly through the worst of this & as such suffered the severe altitude drop, damage to the aircraft & injuries
As regards name/shame, it was reported in the National Press, so think it's safe to confirm that the Cruise Company is P&O, with the Airline being Maleth Aero.
The flight that hit major turbulance en route from BGI-MAN & had to land in Bermuda (several passengers hospitalized over Xmas with a couple being very serious) was the return flight i'd taken out to BGI that morning (Sat 23rd Dec).
The following weekend (we were on the 2 week Xmas & New Year Cruise), the ship had to stay in Antigua overnight (wasn't on the itinerary) & as such missed a Port of Call in Tortola, although P&O did add a Port of Call in Grenada so no doubt save on Compo claims.
Their were many unhappy passengers on the ship who'd expected to be flying Virgin or TUI, but due to lack of available Aircraft were flying Maleth Aero, however i'll be honest, although our flight out to BGI on the 23rd Dec & flight back to MAN on 6th Jan were both delayed 90mins, the flights themselves were fine & given we knew ahead of time Maleth Aircraft have no IFE, we were well prepared.
Edited to add: the Ships Captain did make many announcements as to the Maleth Aero delays into Antigua & it was mentioned that either one or both were further delayed due to crew hours, however i can't recall which flight that related to & if in fact it was both.
As you can imagine, with a Ship full of 5500 British passengers, their was alot of whining & rumours, however the most worrying & i don't know if this is in fact true, was regarding the BGI-MAN that made an emergency landing in Bermuda with many injured passengers & then went Tech due to quite significant damage. The rumour was that Aircraft ahead of the Maleth flight were warning of the turbulence being extreme & as such they were diverting around this area, however Maleth working to a tighter budget, didn't have sufficient fuel to divert & as such had to fly through the worst of this & as such suffered the severe altitude drop, damage to the aircraft & injuries
Edited by w8pmc on Monday 8th January 10:32
w8pmc said:
Ooh, i wondered if a post relating to this is on here as i was mixed up in all of this
As regards name/shame, it was reported in the National Press, so think it's safe to confirm that the Cruise Company is P&O, with the Airline being Maleth Aero.
The flight that hit major turbulance en route from BGI-MAN & had to land in Bermuda (several passengers hospitalized over Xmas with a couple being very serious) was the return flight i'd taken out to BGI that morning (Sat 23rd Dec).
The following weekend (we were on the 2 week Xmas & New Year Cruise), the ship had to stay in Antigua overnight (wasn't on the itinerary) & as such missed a Port of Call in Tortola, although P&O did add a Port of Call in Grenada so no doubt save on Compo claims.
Their were many unhappy passengers on the ship who'd expected to be flying Virgin or TUI, but due to lack of available Aircraft were flying Maleth Aero, however i'll be honest, although our flight out to BGI on the 23rd Dec & flight back to MAN on 6th Jan were both delayed 90mins, the flights themselves were fine & given we knew ahead of time Maleth Aircraft have no IFE, we were well prepared.
Edited to add: the Ships Captain did make many announcements as to the Maleth Aero delays into Antigua & it was mentioned that either one or both were further delayed due to crew hours, however i can't recall which flight that related to & if in fact it was both.
As you can imagine, with a Ship full of 5500 British passengers, their was alot of whining & rumours, however the most worrying & i don't know if this is in fact true, was regarding the BGI-MAN that made an emergency landing in Bermuda with many injured passengers & then went Tech due to quite significant damage. The rumour was that Aircraft ahead of the Maleth flight were warning of the turbulence being extreme & as such they were diverting around this area, however Maleth working to a tighter budget, didn't have sufficient fuel to divert & as such had to fly through the worst of this & as such suffered the severe altitude drop, damage to the aircraft & injuries
Gatwick was delayed due to crew hours, with passengers being well and truly screwed over. Kept on the ship with no cabins and dumped at an empty airport at 1AM to eventually take off after 9AM.As regards name/shame, it was reported in the National Press, so think it's safe to confirm that the Cruise Company is P&O, with the Airline being Maleth Aero.
The flight that hit major turbulance en route from BGI-MAN & had to land in Bermuda (several passengers hospitalized over Xmas with a couple being very serious) was the return flight i'd taken out to BGI that morning (Sat 23rd Dec).
The following weekend (we were on the 2 week Xmas & New Year Cruise), the ship had to stay in Antigua overnight (wasn't on the itinerary) & as such missed a Port of Call in Tortola, although P&O did add a Port of Call in Grenada so no doubt save on Compo claims.
Their were many unhappy passengers on the ship who'd expected to be flying Virgin or TUI, but due to lack of available Aircraft were flying Maleth Aero, however i'll be honest, although our flight out to BGI on the 23rd Dec & flight back to MAN on 6th Jan were both delayed 90mins, the flights themselves were fine & given we knew ahead of time Maleth Aircraft have no IFE, we were well prepared.
Edited to add: the Ships Captain did make many announcements as to the Maleth Aero delays into Antigua & it was mentioned that either one or both were further delayed due to crew hours, however i can't recall which flight that related to & if in fact it was both.
As you can imagine, with a Ship full of 5500 British passengers, their was alot of whining & rumours, however the most worrying & i don't know if this is in fact true, was regarding the BGI-MAN that made an emergency landing in Bermuda with many injured passengers & then went Tech due to quite significant damage. The rumour was that Aircraft ahead of the Maleth flight were warning of the turbulence being extreme & as such they were diverting around this area, however Maleth working to a tighter budget, didn't have sufficient fuel to divert & as such had to fly through the worst of this & as such suffered the severe altitude drop, damage to the aircraft & injuries
Edited by w8pmc on Monday 8th January 10:32
Manchester managed to turn around - but lots of rumours that crew had flown there and back... Which seems unlikely to be legal, and unlikely to have happened...
There are groups happy lay into Maleth at every opportunity, and while there on-time performance does not help, I do feel a little sorry for them!
surveyor said:
Gatwick was delayed due to crew hours, with passengers being well and truly screwed over. Kept on the ship with no cabins and dumped at an empty airport at 1AM to eventually take off after 9AM.
Manchester managed to turn around - but lots of rumours that crew had flown there and back... Which seems unlikely to be legal, and unlikely to have happened...
There are groups happy lay into Maleth at every opportunity, and while there on-time performance does not help, I do feel a little sorry for them!
That does ring bells, however some inaccuracies as many did have cabins made available to cover some of the delay period (cabins available due to the inbound passengers being delayed), plus hotel rooms made available in Antigua to cover some of the further delay. Also P&O provided all those delayed passengers with free calling cards so they could notify loved ones/transport etc. of the delays & use the phones on board to call home.Manchester managed to turn around - but lots of rumours that crew had flown there and back... Which seems unlikely to be legal, and unlikely to have happened...
There are groups happy lay into Maleth at every opportunity, and while there on-time performance does not help, I do feel a little sorry for them!
Agree it was far from perfect & given those Maleth flights are P&O Charters, the cruise company were held accountable & did step up, however i do agree that things could have been handled better.
A strong rumour is that P&O have now terminated their multi year contract with Maleth, so when the current Caribbean season ends in March 24, P&O will need to use a different Airline.
Do agree that Maleth appear to have taken the brunt of the blame, which i also agree doesn't seem fair, as during our travel time & time on board etc. it wasn't like things were going much better for some of the TUI flights, but was already much hate for Maleth, so nobody was moaning about them
As per my previous post, both our outbound & return flights with Maleth were fine, although both were delayed, they made time up & no major inconvenience. What did make me chuckle was the biggest complaint seemed to be the lack of multiple drinks service, clearly from those Brits who prefer to get pissed during their time in the air
Edited by w8pmc on Monday 8th January 11:02
w8pmc said:
That does ring bells, however some inaccuracies as many did have cabins made available to cover some of the delay period (cabins available due to the inbound passengers being delayed), plus hotel rooms made available in Antigua to cover some of the further delay. Also P&O provided all those delayed passengers with free calling cards so they could notify loved ones/transport etc. of the delays & use the phones on board to call home.
Agree it was far from perfect & given those Maleth flights are P&O Charters, the cruise company were held accountable & did step up, however i do agree that things could have been handled better.
A strong rumour is that P&O have now terminated their multi year contract with Maleth, so when the current Caribbean season ends in March 24, P&O will need to use a different Airline.
Do agree that Maleth appear to have taken the brunt of the blame, which i also agree doesn't seem fair, as during our travel time & time on board etc. it wasn't like things were going much better for some of the TUI flights, but was already much hate for Maleth, so nobody was moaning about them
As per my previous post, both our outbound & return flights with Maleth were fine, although both were delayed, they made time up & no major inconvenience. What did make me chuckle was the biggest complaint seemed to be the lack of multiple drinks service, clearly from those Brits who prefer to get pissed during their time in the air
Not surprised on the inaccuracy's. Some cruise passengers seem to cruise to only find negatives.Agree it was far from perfect & given those Maleth flights are P&O Charters, the cruise company were held accountable & did step up, however i do agree that things could have been handled better.
A strong rumour is that P&O have now terminated their multi year contract with Maleth, so when the current Caribbean season ends in March 24, P&O will need to use a different Airline.
Do agree that Maleth appear to have taken the brunt of the blame, which i also agree doesn't seem fair, as during our travel time & time on board etc. it wasn't like things were going much better for some of the TUI flights, but was already much hate for Maleth, so nobody was moaning about them
As per my previous post, both our outbound & return flights with Maleth were fine, although both were delayed, they made time up & no major inconvenience. What did make me chuckle was the biggest complaint seemed to be the lack of multiple drinks service, clearly from those Brits who prefer to get pissed during their time in the air
Edited by w8pmc on Monday 8th January 11:02
I've noticed the focus on drinks. We did the transatlantic and I think on the return flight got 1 drink service, something with a meal and a hot drink service with breakfast. That was with Tui...
surveyor said:
Not surprised on the inaccuracy's. Some cruise passengers seem to cruise to only find negatives.
I've noticed the focus on drinks. We did the transatlantic and I think on the return flight got 1 drink service, something with a meal and a hot drink service with breakfast. That was with Tui...
One of the key reasons i wouldn't cruise P&O again. Being surrounded by 5500 Brits was defo not fun with so many being negative about anything/everything. The best of course being (it's too hot)I've noticed the focus on drinks. We did the transatlantic and I think on the return flight got 1 drink service, something with a meal and a hot drink service with breakfast. That was with Tui...
w8pmc said:
surveyor said:
Not surprised on the inaccuracy's. Some cruise passengers seem to cruise to only find negatives.
I've noticed the focus on drinks. We did the transatlantic and I think on the return flight got 1 drink service, something with a meal and a hot drink service with breakfast. That was with Tui...
One of the key reasons i wouldn't cruise P&O again. Being surrounded by 5500 Brits was defo not fun with so many being negative about anything/everything. The best of course being (it's too hot)I've noticed the focus on drinks. We did the transatlantic and I think on the return flight got 1 drink service, something with a meal and a hot drink service with breakfast. That was with Tui...
This kind of behaviour (along with other things I’ve seen on P&O ships) is not entirely comparable with other people who decide to go on a cruise in other countries/with other companies IME.
The flight safety is a completely different issue of course and I genuinely hope that people weren’t placed in danger at any time.
MarkJS said:
This is the thing. The OP mentions ‘entitled’ cruise passengers, but British P&O are getting close to the bottom of the pile in terms of quality and generally attract a certain British clientele to go with it. The disgust at not being flown back by utterly mediocre TUI because you don’t get more drinks and a screen in the back of the seat in front of you (from comments I’ve seen elsewhere) is hilarious.
This kind of behaviour (along with other things I’ve seen on P&O ships) is not entirely comparable with other people who decide to go on a cruise in other countries/with other companies IME.
The flight safety is a completely different issue of course and I genuinely hope that people weren’t placed in danger at any time.
Am in full agreement & i've never seen/heard such negativity & moaning from people who let's be honest, were having the most amazing time in fantastic places with glorious weather.This kind of behaviour (along with other things I’ve seen on P&O ships) is not entirely comparable with other people who decide to go on a cruise in other countries/with other companies IME.
The flight safety is a completely different issue of course and I genuinely hope that people weren’t placed in danger at any time.
Had i not been part of a large group of friends (which made this cruise an amazing experience), i can be sure i'd have at best not enjoyed the experience & i can't see i'll ever be boarding a P&O Cruise ship ever again
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