Single engined light aircraft questions
Discussion
OK i know very little about these hence the questions that have been going around in my head for ages
When up there, above the clouds, is it warm or cold with the sun beating through the glass or do high speed in cold air chill the cabin? do the likes of Piper & Cessna fit heaters?
Why do so many not have retractable undercarriages? Does the weight of the mechanics outweigh the benefits of less drag?
When up there, above the clouds, is it warm or cold with the sun beating through the glass or do high speed in cold air chill the cabin? do the likes of Piper & Cessna fit heaters?
Why do so many not have retractable undercarriages? Does the weight of the mechanics outweigh the benefits of less drag?
Never felt cold but had clothes, coveralls and parachute on so was well wrapped up.
I'm pretty sure it had a heater but I don't think it was used when I flew.
Retractable undercarriage adds weight and a lot of complexity to light aircraft and more kit that needs testing.
My only experience is Chipmunks and motor-gliders though.
I'm pretty sure it had a heater but I don't think it was used when I flew.
Retractable undercarriage adds weight and a lot of complexity to light aircraft and more kit that needs testing.
My only experience is Chipmunks and motor-gliders though.
Edited by dudleybloke on Saturday 30th December 20:27
Skyedriver said:
OK i know very little about these hence the questions that have been going around in my head for ages
When up there, above the clouds, is it warm or cold with the sun beating through the glass or do high speed in cold air chill the cabin? do the likes of Piper & Cessna fit heaters?
Why do so many not have retractable undercarriages? Does the weight of the mechanics outweigh the benefits of less drag?
Hello, When up there, above the clouds, is it warm or cold with the sun beating through the glass or do high speed in cold air chill the cabin? do the likes of Piper & Cessna fit heaters?
Why do so many not have retractable undercarriages? Does the weight of the mechanics outweigh the benefits of less drag?
Its erm, rather chilly.Temps drop 2 degrees per 1000ft, standard isa etc... not important.. but its why we had those dashing WW2 bomber jackets.
However most, maybe all light aircraft have some form of rudimentary heating available. Although I do remember taking a light prob up to Aberdeen years ago that had a a broken heater and knowing it was bloody freezing even at 9000ft i took my duvet from home with me to keep warm.
Retractable undercarriages, most light ac are cruising at 90 knots, drag, or rather parasitic drag is not a massive issue at those speeds.
If your operating from muddy grass fields the extra maint, weight and cleaning requirements just mean fixed gear is so much easier, also dont need to worry about forgetting to lower it and incurring further maint costs
Skyedriver said:
When up there, above the clouds, is it warm or cold with the sun beating through the glass or do high speed in cold air chill the cabin? do the likes of Piper & Cessna fit heaters?
Depending on the type, cabin temperature control can range from a simple vent bringing cold air into the cabin to a full air conditioning system. In types where you have a suitable canopy you might leave this open in flight as well. Heating can be more of an issue, as a common way of getting heat into the cabin is to have some form of heat exchanger with the engine exhaust, with the associated risks of carbon-monoxide poisoning (most likely the cause of the accident that killed Emiliano Sala and his pilot, for example). My old Yak had a heater muff on the exhaust that the CAA took one look at when the type started to be brought onto the UK register and demanded that it be disconnected.Skyedriver said:
Why do so many not have retractable undercarriages? Does the weight of the mechanics outweigh the benefits of less drag?
Pretty much this. Apart from the actual mechanism of the gear itself, you'll also need some additional systems to actually power the actuators, be it electrical, hydraulic or pneumatic and it's all stuff that adds weight, which means more fuel burn, and costs money to have maintained (as well as potentially requiring some additional training) - and if it *does* go wrong and not extend when required, then you're looking at an engine rebuild at the very least (not that fixed-gear types and completely immune - I was in an Extra 300 that had a gear collapse on landing due to defective bolts being used in the wheel attachments - it's amazing how wooden props just evaporate when they come into contact with the ground)Skyedriver, they are good questions. I have certainly been very cold in some light aircraft. Some have heaters, but a lot don't. With an aircooled engine as most older aircraft have, the usual source of heat is from a heat exchanger on the exhaust, and a leak from this runs the risk of a buildup of carbon monoxide in the cockpit (as happened to footballer Emiliano Sala and his pilot). An immediate landing isn't always possible, so this is a much bigger danger than in a car.
The retractable undercarriage question is as Dudleybloke says. It is a lot of complexity and expense for minimal gain, given that many light aircraft pilots struggle to fly the minimum number of hours in the year to stay current. The Cessna 172 Skyhawk and the Cessna 172 Cutlass RG illustrate this point perfectly.
The retractable undercarriage Cutlass has a 180hp engine and variable pitch propeller, giving an optimal cruise speed of 140 knots, whereas the fixed gear Skyhawk has a 160hp engine with a fixed pitch propeller, giving an optimal cruise speed of 122 knots. So a retractable undercarriage, a complex propeller and 20 more horsepower give only 18 knots faster cruise speed.
The primary market for the Cutlass is as a 'complex type' for pilots getting their ratings to fly other complex aircraft.
The retractable undercarriage question is as Dudleybloke says. It is a lot of complexity and expense for minimal gain, given that many light aircraft pilots struggle to fly the minimum number of hours in the year to stay current. The Cessna 172 Skyhawk and the Cessna 172 Cutlass RG illustrate this point perfectly.
The retractable undercarriage Cutlass has a 180hp engine and variable pitch propeller, giving an optimal cruise speed of 140 knots, whereas the fixed gear Skyhawk has a 160hp engine with a fixed pitch propeller, giving an optimal cruise speed of 122 knots. So a retractable undercarriage, a complex propeller and 20 more horsepower give only 18 knots faster cruise speed.
The primary market for the Cutlass is as a 'complex type' for pilots getting their ratings to fly other complex aircraft.
Edited by GliderRider on Sunday 31st December 01:43
Skyedriver said:
Why do so many not have retractable undercarriages? Does the weight of the mechanics outweigh the benefits of less drag?
Aside from the cost, complexity and limited performance benefits already mentioned, insurance (costs, requirements, availability) for retractable gear aircraft have long been a bit of a challenge in the largest general aviation market, the US. This has also probably contributed to driving them out of the lower end of the market (e.g. the four-seat Cessnas and Pipers used to both have retractable models, Cessna stopped long ago, Piper have since, too).dudleybloke said:
Never felt cold but had clothes, coveralls and parachute on so was well wrapped up.
I'm pretty sure it had a heater but I don't think it was used when I flew.
Retractable undercarriage adds weight and a lot of complexity to light aircraft and more kit that needs testing.
My only experience is Chipmunks and motor-gliders though.
I’ve flown in a Chipmunk in winter. It was a bit chilly.I'm pretty sure it had a heater but I don't think it was used when I flew.
Retractable undercarriage adds weight and a lot of complexity to light aircraft and more kit that needs testing.
My only experience is Chipmunks and motor-gliders though.
Edited by dudleybloke on Saturday 30th December 20:27
Skyedriver said:
OK i know very little about these hence the questions that have been going around in my head for ages
When up there, above the clouds, is it warm or cold with the sun beating through the glass or do high speed in cold air chill the cabin? do the likes of Piper & Cessna fit heaters?
Why do so many not have retractable undercarriages? Does the weight of the mechanics outweigh the benefits of less drag?
Even my my mate’s microlite has a heater.When up there, above the clouds, is it warm or cold with the sun beating through the glass or do high speed in cold air chill the cabin? do the likes of Piper & Cessna fit heaters?
Why do so many not have retractable undercarriages? Does the weight of the mechanics outweigh the benefits of less drag?
Happy New Year Tony
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Silly question time.
Do aircraft have carbon monoxide detectors?
In the aircraft I've flown, usually one of those stick-on plastic types with a small patch of orange reagent in the middle which turns black in the presence of significant quantities of CO. Some may have electronic detectors, but the patch has the benefit of being cheap & reliable.Do aircraft have carbon monoxide detectors?
eharding said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Silly question time.
Do aircraft have carbon monoxide detectors?
In the aircraft I've flown, usually one of those stick-on plastic types with a small patch of orange reagent in the middle which turns black in the presence of significant quantities of CO. Some may have electronic detectors, but the patch has the benefit of being cheap & reliable.Do aircraft have carbon monoxide detectors?
GliderRider said:
eharding said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Silly question time.
Do aircraft have carbon monoxide detectors?
In the aircraft I've flown, usually one of those stick-on plastic types with a small patch of orange reagent in the middle which turns black in the presence of significant quantities of CO. Some may have electronic detectors, but the patch has the benefit of being cheap & reliable.Do aircraft have carbon monoxide detectors?
Aviation seems a mix of very tight regulation alongside an almost frontier-like attitude that you're a big boy and can look after yourself.
eharding said:
In the aircraft I've flown, usually one of those stick-on plastic types with a small patch of orange reagent in the middle which turns black in the presence of significant quantities of CO. Some may have electronic detectors, but the patch has the benefit of being cheap & reliable.
Thank you both.It seemed like the answer should be yes but as posted above there are things I read about sometimes that have my scratching my head.
Slightly bemused at the £2.99 "patch that turns black" when I literally bought a new Kidde detector for the house for only £15 this week but I guess the main thing is it does the job reliable - assuming you remember to look at it
I don't think that CO2 monitors are mandatory on light aircraft - although it's advisable to have one.
I think the problem is that the CO2 buildup might be already impairing the pilot before the detector registers anything. By then it could be too late.
Light aircraft, especially the older traditional types such as Cessna 150/152s and Piper PA-28 Cherokees are often well over 20 years old and as a result the technology built into them can be quite ancient. If you look inside the cockpit of (say) a 1975 vintage Cessna 150 you will see a very traditional "steam gauge" layout with perhaps some more modern "add-on" bits such as a GPS system or a CO2 monitor. In many cases, pilots rely on iPads or other tables clamped into the control yoke - whuich to me is not an ideal set up.
I think the problem is that the CO2 buildup might be already impairing the pilot before the detector registers anything. By then it could be too late.
Light aircraft, especially the older traditional types such as Cessna 150/152s and Piper PA-28 Cherokees are often well over 20 years old and as a result the technology built into them can be quite ancient. If you look inside the cockpit of (say) a 1975 vintage Cessna 150 you will see a very traditional "steam gauge" layout with perhaps some more modern "add-on" bits such as a GPS system or a CO2 monitor. In many cases, pilots rely on iPads or other tables clamped into the control yoke - whuich to me is not an ideal set up.
eharding said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Silly question time.
Do aircraft have carbon monoxide detectors?
In the aircraft I've flown, usually one of those stick-on plastic types with a small patch of orange reagent in the middle which turns black in the presence of significant quantities of CO. Some may have electronic detectors, but the patch has the benefit of being cheap & reliable.Do aircraft have carbon monoxide detectors?
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