Reno 2023 Crash

[Voldemort]

Two T6 Texans crash at Reno. Two pilots killed. Rest of event cancelled.

RIP Nick Macy and Chris Rushing.
RIP Reno Air Races

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/17/us/reno-nevada-...

[horseshoecrab]

I watched this all unfold on the live stream last night before going to bed.
It was a midair after the completion of T6 Gold race between Baron's Revenge and Six-Cat who were 1st & 2nd
Awful.

RIP to those involved

[ChemicalChaos]

That's doubly terrible new to hear it wan't even in the heat of the race, but upon landing afterwards. I assume one descended unsighted into the other?

[horseshoecrab]

Given the number of spectators I'm sure footage will emerge in the coming days but it was just the audio on the live stream.
One took the other's tail off. Both went down.

[aeropilot]

Rather sad and tragic way for the Reno Races to sign off for good after nearly 60 years.

[zsdom]

Good riddance Reno, such a pointless event & something serious seems to happen far too regularly

Edited by zsdom on Monday 18th September 18:19

[sherbertdip]

zsdom said:

Good riddance Reno, such a pointless event & something serious seems to happen far too regularly

Edited by zsdom on Monday 18th September 18:19

Its racing, it's dangerous, why call it pointless, is any sport that may cause death pointless? If you think that way Chess is the one for you, although you may die of boredom.

[eldar]

zsdom said:

Good riddance Reno, such a pointless event & something serious seems to happen far too regularly

Edited by zsdom on Monday 18th September 18:19

Participants are aware of the risk, same as all hazardous pastimes.

[Tony1963]

eldar said:

Participants are aware of the risk, same as all hazardous pastimes.

That was the excuse given by many when F1 drivers were off to meet their maker too regularly. It’s not a good argument, especially when innocent people are also at risk.

I hate the way our air shows have become so yawn inducing, but, the safety factor is almost impossible to argue against. When the money dries up, these pursuits disappear.

[zsdom]

sherbertdip said:

Its racing, it's dangerous, why call it pointless, is any sport that may cause death pointless? If you think that way Chess is the one for you, although you may die of boredom.

Yes, any sport that can cause people to unecessarily die is very pointless, thats why the risks are mitigated, boxing has so much medical staff on hand, cricketers/baseballers wear head, leg, bk & arm protection amongst others, footballers have the concussion checks, dont even get started on F1, sport learns from deaths and moves to make sure similar events dont occur.

What has Reno learnt, 16 people dead in 12 years (could potentially have been more had Dreadnaught not made a safe landing)? I’d say nothing & they just took your attitude, no wonder its ended.

eldar said:

Participants are aware of the risk, same as all hazardous pastimes.

And in the case of 2011 and the 11 spectators, were they aware of the risk, were they happy knowing that they could die just for watching?

[eldar]

Tony1963 said:

eldar said:

Participants are aware of the risk, same as all hazardous pastimes.

That was the excuse given by many when F1 drivers were off to meet their maker too regularly. It’s not a good argument, especially when innocent people are also at risk.

I hate the way our air shows have become so yawn inducing, but, the safety factor is almost impossible to argue against. When the money dries up, these pursuits disappear.

Nobody forced people to compete or observe. People eat badly, smoke and take drugs fully aware of the hazard. Some choose not to.

The real issue is the professional pearl clutchers trying to drag the rest of the population down to their total risk avoidant vision of joyful existence.

As you say, follow the money.

[Tony1963]

eldar said:

Nobody forced people to compete or observe. People eat badly, smoke and take drugs fully aware of the hazard. Some choose not to.

The real issue is the professional pearl clutchers trying to drag the rest of the population down to their total risk avoidant vision of joyful existence.

As you say, follow the money.

Or, with regards to smoking etc, fully aware of the advertising, peer pressure, looking cool lol etc. Most people have that feature that believes it won’t happen to them… good luck with that.
There have been too many deaths there, so bad publicity arrives, sponsors start leaving, and the older pilots retire or get killed. I’ve fixed aircraft for over 40 years, and on a personal level, I wouldn’t want to wave my pilot off each day knowing that there was a high chance of me seeing him cremated at 500mph. I was invited to join a team two years ago, move out there, the lot. Maybe twenty years ago!

There are plenty of options for these pilots to get their adrenaline rush, but perhaps they’ll miss the ego boost of racing at Reno.

[ds666]

I was at the races on Saturday and Sunday - was watching the t6 race and then it all went quiet . There was no Tanoy near where I was so didn’t know what had happened .
Really sad end to a great event .
I was glad to see the racing , fantastic planes and an interesting event .

I guess it is the flying equivalent of the Isle of Man TT.

Ironically I found the actual racing pretty boring as there was very little “over taking “

Edited by ds666 on Thursday 21st September 21:26

[GliderRider]

This wasn't an air racing accident, it was a lack of situational awareness accident, just like the Texas Raiders B-17 & P-63 King Cobra accident less than a year ago.

The sad fact is that these 80+ year old designs are still being flown with only the technology available for close proximity awareness as when they were designed, instead of taking advantage of all the technology invented since.

Glider Pilots have FLARM (FLight ALarm) which helps alert them of what is approaching in their blind spots. It isn't perfect, but is an improvement on nothing at all.

The ideal would probably be some sort of projected holographic head up display in which the pilots own aircraft appears in the centre, with nearby aircraft shown in their relative positions and possible trajectories.
On a more easily achievable level, something employing the cameras used on cars to project an all round image, but incuding above and below would be the answer. I'm not holding my breath though and expect to see many more warbirds destroyed and their pilots, passengers and bystanders killed, before anyone can bother their arse to do anything about the problem.

[havoc]

Tony1963 said:

eldar said:

Participants are aware of the risk, same as all hazardous pastimes.

That was the excuse given by many when F1 drivers were off to meet their maker too regularly. It’s not a good argument, especially when innocent people are also at risk.

I was at the Air Races when it happened as a photographer. I missed the actual incident but was aware of the events afterwards, and became aware of the behind the scenes conversations after they'd happened.

Yes it's st, and yes the Air Races do have a history of crashes. BUT, as others have said:-
- this wasn't a racing incident, this was simple pilot error. Could have happened at any airshow. Could have happened at the local airfield.
- flying is inherently more dangerous than racing on the ground - comparison to F1 is fair but also misses the point of comparative risk.
- ALL the competitors are there fully cognizant of the risks they're taking...and they STILL want to do it. Who is anyone here to stop them?
- the FAA AND the families of the two pilots both cleared RARA to continue. RARA, out of the over-caution that seems to grip everyone nowadays, decided not to proceed with any further races. It felt then and still feels like a bad way for the RAR to finish.
- after the 2016 crash they moved all the spectators a fair way further back. There's very little risk to paying punters there nowadays, and the surrounding area is virtually unpopulated.

If you want to talk about risk and fatalities, let's get rid of horse-racing too. And triathlons/marathons! And while we're at it, what about rock climbing / mountaineering. And skiing. I mean, come on guys...risk is part of what makes life worth living. As long as you're doing something fully aware of the risk, then why should some busybody stop you?!?

GliderRider said:

The sad fact is that these 80+ year old designs are still being flown with only the technology available for close proximity awareness as when they were designed, instead of taking advantage of all the technology invented since.

Glider Pilots have FLARM (FLight ALarm) which helps alert them of what is approaching in their blind spots. It isn't perfect, but is an improvement on nothing at all.

Very fair points, and probably not too difficult to retrofit.

ds666 said:

Ironically I found the actual racing pretty boring as there was very little “over taking “

In a couple of classes, sure (Jets most obviously - they are a bit dull), but it was in that final race or the T-6 race before where one competitor had come up from 5th to 2nd. Given they're only ~6 laps per race, that's pretty fair going. The Formula 1's and T-6's in-particular are very close racing.
...and, in recognition of the points made by others above, overtaking has been made hard in the name of safety (overtaker HAS to have the plane in front visible at all times, so has to go around the outside). Sport and Unlimited have a lot of freedom of engineering in the rules, so you do get more variability in performance, but you still get close racing somewhere in the field.

Edited by havoc on Thursday 28th September 13:55