Hurricane night fighter

[GRS40]

I was at Goodwood yesterday and a Hurricane flew in. It was all black and looked in full night fighter mode.

Unfortunately it parked well away from the hangars so I couldn't get a good look at it or any photos.

I wondered if anyone knew anything about it and who owns it as it looks amazing!

[MarkwG]

This one, perhaps? https://www.memorialflightclub.com/blog/night-figh...

[GRS40]

That's the one brilliant thank you

[aeropilot]

Yep, Papa Zulu's new scheme.

This is the second time Battle of Britain Memorial Flight have represented an all black night fighter/intruder Hurricane. The last time they did it was back in the mid 1980's when their other Hurricane, LF363 was painted in 85 Sqn all black scheme as VY-X.

[Yertis]

Read 'My Part of the Sky' by Roland Beamont for an excellent first-hand description of flying the Hurricane at night.

[Eric Mc]

I remember my brother building this FROG Hurricane kit back in the 1970s.



It represented a Hurricane converted to night fighting duties.

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

I remember my brother building this FROG Hurricane kit back in the 1970s.



It represented a Hurricane converted to night fighting duties.

Not really converted to anything. Adding black paint is hardly 'converting'

BBMF's PZ865 'Last of the Many' was painted a few years back to represent Karel Kuttelwascher's Mk.IIc

[Eric Mc]

It was all they could do. It was a genuine night fighter and it made an interesting alternative to the usual "day fighter" schemes. Other Hurricanes were painted all over black and they also had flame guards fitted above the exhaust stacks as the flames from the exhaust were interfering with the pilots' night vision.

You can see the flame guards in this picture.



They were retired once enough "proper" radar equipped night fighters became available.

[Simpo Two]

aeropilot said:

BBMF's PZ865 'Last of the Many' was painted a few years back to represent Karel Kuttelwascher's Mk.IIc

I have a slight feeling that these rare aeroplanes should be kept in the scheme they originally were in service, not repainted every few years to look like a different one.

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

It was all they could do. It was a genuine night fighter and it made an interesting alternative to the usual "day fighter" schemes. Other Hurricanes were painted all over black and they also had flame guards fitted above the exhaust stacks as the flames from the exhaust were interfering with the pilots' night vision.

You can see the flame guards in this picture.



They were retired once enough "proper" radar equipped night fighters became available.

The flame deflectors can often be seen fitted to some day fighter Battle of Britain era Hurricane Mk.1's, and later day-fighter MkII's.
They weren't actually retired once there was enough AI equipped Beaufighters, as they went over full time to the night intruder sweeps over France and the low countries, that some of the night-fighter Hurricane squadrons had started to do from mid 1941 onwards, which is what these all black, or black undersides Mk.IIc's such as Karel Kuttlewascher's were being used for in 1942 and through to late 1943.

[Eric Mc]

The full box art on the FROG kit shows it attacking a train. presumably on a low level night strike. So, on the basis that the art was reasonably accurate, I was aware that they did this type of operation over 50 years ago.

I was really talking about night interception of bombers over the UK, which eventually chiefly became the preserve of night fighter Mosquitoes and Beaufighters - and even P-61 Black Widows when the USAAF started getting involved.

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

I was really talking about night interception of bombers over the UK, which eventually chiefly became the preserve of night fighter Mosquitoes and Beaufighters - and even P-61 Black Widows when the USAAF started getting involved.

That actually started in 1940 when the first attempts at fitting AI into Blenheim's was not a huge success, with the Beau finally coming into its own in 1941 (as well as use of the Defiants after their failure in day ops during the BoB).
The Beaus were supplemented with attempts to use the Havoc as well, without a great deal of success, and the Beau's limitations were mainly the fact that the RO had to re-arm the 4x20mm cannons in the floor as they were magezine fed. I first read Night Fighter by C.F. Rawnsley back in the early 70's, who was John 'Cats Eyes' Cunningham's radar operator through the Blenheim, Beaufighter and Mossie night ops over the UK, and is a great read about these ops.
The Hurricanes scored remarkably well compared to the other types until they went over to the offensive night intruder role once there were enough AI equipped Beau squadrons available.
The USAAF P-61's were very late in the war, and like the RAF Mosquito's were by then used as offensive night-fighters over enemy territory rather than defensive night-fighters.

[Yertis]

Simpo Two said:

aeropilot said:

BBMF's PZ865 'Last of the Many' was painted a few years back to represent Karel Kuttelwascher's Mk.IIc

I have a slight feeling that these rare aeroplanes should be kept in the scheme they originally were in service, not repainted every few years to look like a different one.

I agree. It also bugs me (an infinitesimal amount admittedly) that most aircraft in museums are in mint condition. My favourite preserved aircraft is that tatty Corsair at Yeovilton (I think it's a Corsair – maybe a Martlet or similar). But maybe the starting point was not representative of the aircraft just too far gone to display in 'barn-find' state.

I have a bit of an issue with Bovington in that regard too. When I was kid none of the tanks on display were 'restored'. Now alot of them are.

[Eric Mc]

aeropilot said:

That actually started in 1940 when the first attempts at fitting AI into Blenheim's was not a huge success, with the Beau finally coming into its own in 1941 (as well as use of the Defiants after their failure in day ops during the BoB).
The Beaus were supplemented with attempts to use the Havoc as well, without a great deal of success, and the Beau's limitations were mainly the fact that the RO had to re-arm the 4x20mm cannons in the floor as they were magezine fed. I first read Night Fighter by C.F. Rawnsley back in the early 70's, who was John 'Cats Eyes' Cunningham's radar operator through the Blenheim, Beaufighter and Mossie night ops over the UK, and is a great read about these ops.
The Hurricanes scored remarkably well compared to the other types until they went over to the offensive night intruder role once there were enough AI equipped Beau squadrons available.
The USAAF P-61's were very late in the war, and like the RAF Mosquito's were by then used as offensive night-fighters over enemy territory rather than defensive night-fighters.

At least one V1 was downed by a P-61 - at night, over the UK.

One of my favourite books that covers the early years of using AI radar (Airborne Interceptor) is this one. I still have the original copy I bought when I was ten



In some countries it was titled "Scramble".

[Eric Mc]

Yertis said:

Simpo Two said:

aeropilot said:

BBMF's PZ865 'Last of the Many' was painted a few years back to represent Karel Kuttelwascher's Mk.IIc

I have a slight feeling that these rare aeroplanes should be kept in the scheme they originally were in service, not repainted every few years to look like a different one.

I agree. It also bugs me (an infinitesimal amount admittedly) that most aircraft in museums are in mint condition. My favourite preserved aircraft is that tatty Corsair at Yeovilton (I think it's a Corsair – maybe a Martlet or similar). But maybe the starting point was not representative of the aircraft just too far gone to display in 'barn-find' state.

I have a bit of an issue with Bovington in that regard too. When I was kid none of the tanks on display were 'restored'. Now alot of them are.

They are kept as flying tributes to the men who flew them on dangerous missions. Many of the actual aircraft that survived long enough to be preserved did not have much in the way of wartime front line service, being used as trainers or post war for example. The airworthy Lancaster PA474 never saw front line use so painting it in its original markings might not be very evocative.

I have no problem in flying them in representative colours. They need to be repainted every couple of years as a matter of course anyway.

[aeropilot]

Yertis said:

Simpo Two said:

aeropilot said:

BBMF's PZ865 'Last of the Many' was painted a few years back to represent Karel Kuttelwascher's Mk.IIc

I have a slight feeling that these rare aeroplanes should be kept in the scheme they originally were in service, not repainted every few years to look like a different one.

I agree.

But, that's part of the stated aims of the BBMF, and always has been, in that is seeks to represent as many of its past veterans as possible while it can, which is why all the aircraft usually get a repaint into a new scheme every 2-3 years to represent as much of the types RAF history as possible.

[Jake899]

Plus most of them are approximately 5% of the original aircraft anyway, some are composites, and some no more than a dataplate. All would most likely have sported various markings whilst in service.
So saying they should be kept original is not really relevant bar a few exceptions.

[aeropilot]

Jake899 said:

Plus most of them are approximately 5% of the original aircraft anyway, some are composites, and some no more than a dataplate.

None of which applies to the BBMF fleet, which is what was being talked about.

LF363 probably has the least of its original structure, after it was rebuilt following Al Martin's emergency landing at Wittering 30 odd years ago, but even then, its still significantly more than 50% of its original structure.

[Eric Mc]

Yes - most of the Memorial Flight aircraft were allocated to them many, many years ago - well before the modern restoration industry had really got under way.

Some of the restored aircraft in private or commercially run collections are indeed, in some cases anyway, almost recreations of the originals. But the BBMF aircraft are pretty genuine.

[Simpo Two]

aeropilot said:

But, that's part of the stated aims of the BBMF, and always has been, in that is seeks to represent as many of its past veterans as possible while it can, which is why all the aircraft usually get a repaint into a new scheme every 2-3 years to represent as much of the types RAF history as possible.

It's a good job that art galleries don't do it with paintings. 'Right chaps, see that Picasso on the far wall? Next weekend is the anniversary of Constable's birth so slap some trees and a haywain on it...'