Mentor Pilot Youtube AF 447
Discussion
Just watched this now.
I really enjoy Mentor Pilot’s YouTube videos. I’d be interested in knowing the very knowledgeable and experienced views of the pilots who look in on this area of the forum.
In my own simplistic understanding of this event, I was of the opinion, that the crew in this disaster were at the time a bit ‘amateur’.
But, having watched this, it’s given me a better understanding of what was actually occurring .
And especially what the crew were dealing with at the time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e5AGHEUxLME&t=26...
I really enjoy Mentor Pilot’s YouTube videos. I’d be interested in knowing the very knowledgeable and experienced views of the pilots who look in on this area of the forum.
In my own simplistic understanding of this event, I was of the opinion, that the crew in this disaster were at the time a bit ‘amateur’.
But, having watched this, it’s given me a better understanding of what was actually occurring .
And especially what the crew were dealing with at the time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e5AGHEUxLME&t=26...
I love his videos. I’m an aircraft engineer so it’s nice to see from the pilots point if view.
The fact the controls average out the commands of both sticks surprised me. You would imagine the captains set would be set as the master, with an override switch somewhere handy incase if a fault with the captains stick.
I’m still amazed two pilots managed to stall from what 35000ft and not realise until the last few seconds.
If you have access to discovery+ I think there is an air accident investigation episode on this incident.
The fact the controls average out the commands of both sticks surprised me. You would imagine the captains set would be set as the master, with an override switch somewhere handy incase if a fault with the captains stick.
I’m still amazed two pilots managed to stall from what 35000ft and not realise until the last few seconds.
If you have access to discovery+ I think there is an air accident investigation episode on this incident.
Edited by MB140 on Monday 6th March 08:36
Jim H said:
I just thought, in this instance, why the hell did the pilot flying keep pulling back on the side-stick.
Every time they went nose down to pick up speed they they got a stall warning, which is the opposite of what you'd expect. Too many pilots/conflicting views, too many inputs, and nobody working the problem. With no horizon they were totally disorientated.I love his videos, very informative.
I'm no pilot and I have only once taken the control of a Cessna for a few minutes.
I think I'd much prefer a proper yoke than a diddly little computer joystick.
What do our resident pilots prefer and why do Airbus use this system whilst Boing stick with yokes?
I'm no pilot and I have only once taken the control of a Cessna for a few minutes.
I think I'd much prefer a proper yoke than a diddly little computer joystick.
What do our resident pilots prefer and why do Airbus use this system whilst Boing stick with yokes?
This tragedy was covered here all those years ago, however..
I won't go into why they did what they did, I don't think we will ever know.
This was just a classic case of unreliable airspeed. The trick to this ( and it's hard under such pressure) is to figure out WHO is the liar...
Some of your instruments are lying - in this case( airspeed), some are telling the truth ( attitude, vertical speed, Altitude) etc. It's up to the humans to figure it out. Once figured, you can apply a remedy.
PPL pilots will be familiar with this, we call it partial panel flying. Somethings broke instrument wise, have to ignore and use other sources for info.
Sadly the right hand seat, keeping that stick pulled back, put them into a serious stall. Right hand seat never got to grips what was going on until the skipper came in. Too late.
This is a highlight of the Airbus sidesticks weak point, it's difficult to figure out what the other pilot is doing, input wise. Having a yoke gives tactile feed back of what the other person is doing. I feel, had that been a Boeing, the left hand seat would have known that you can NOT keep an airliner flying with the yoke pulled right into your crotch at 35000. Without Saturn 5 boosters strapped on, you'll stall PDQ...
With regards to whose stick rules? There is the red button on top of the stick that will lock out the other side. It works, trust me, I've had to use it for real a few times over the years.
I do prefer the side stick though, aware of it's limitations and threats, spending hours in the cruise, having the a stick at the side allows us to use a very handy tray table that pulls out. Makes eating meals, paperwork ( all digital these days) much easier. Gone are the days of eating you dinner on the Tech Log!.
I don't want to go back to Boeing and yokes, I much prefer Airbus in my shorthaul world. Just be wary and alert!
As an aside, I've done the 447 stall in the sim, most probably have had a go at some point.
It's f
king terrifying.
I pulled full back stick, apexed out at over well over 40000ft, into a deep stall. At recovery ( get the fking nose DOWN!) I nearly hit mach 1. The nose had to go down to a ridiculous attitude to unstall the wing. 2.3 G (limit 2.5) to recover out. Levelled off at about 22000....
So you can see, if you get yourself into those kind of extreme attitudes high up, you better get the detective work done ASAP, get recovery done or, sadly like this flight, you'll soon quickly run out of height to do it......
I won't go into why they did what they did, I don't think we will ever know.
This was just a classic case of unreliable airspeed. The trick to this ( and it's hard under such pressure) is to figure out WHO is the liar...
Some of your instruments are lying - in this case( airspeed), some are telling the truth ( attitude, vertical speed, Altitude) etc. It's up to the humans to figure it out. Once figured, you can apply a remedy.
PPL pilots will be familiar with this, we call it partial panel flying. Somethings broke instrument wise, have to ignore and use other sources for info.
Sadly the right hand seat, keeping that stick pulled back, put them into a serious stall. Right hand seat never got to grips what was going on until the skipper came in. Too late.
This is a highlight of the Airbus sidesticks weak point, it's difficult to figure out what the other pilot is doing, input wise. Having a yoke gives tactile feed back of what the other person is doing. I feel, had that been a Boeing, the left hand seat would have known that you can NOT keep an airliner flying with the yoke pulled right into your crotch at 35000. Without Saturn 5 boosters strapped on, you'll stall PDQ...
With regards to whose stick rules? There is the red button on top of the stick that will lock out the other side. It works, trust me, I've had to use it for real a few times over the years.
I do prefer the side stick though, aware of it's limitations and threats, spending hours in the cruise, having the a stick at the side allows us to use a very handy tray table that pulls out. Makes eating meals, paperwork ( all digital these days) much easier. Gone are the days of eating you dinner on the Tech Log!.
I don't want to go back to Boeing and yokes, I much prefer Airbus in my shorthaul world. Just be wary and alert!
As an aside, I've done the 447 stall in the sim, most probably have had a go at some point.
It's f
king terrifying. I pulled full back stick, apexed out at over well over 40000ft, into a deep stall. At recovery ( get the f
king nose DOWN!) I nearly hit mach 1. The nose had to go down to a ridiculous attitude to unstall the wing. 2.3 G (limit 2.5) to recover out. Levelled off at about 22000....So you can see, if you get yourself into those kind of extreme attitudes high up, you better get the detective work done ASAP, get recovery done or, sadly like this flight, you'll soon quickly run out of height to do it......
Many, many thanks Chuck - really interesting.
I appreciate this has been covered before at the time.
I think I must have seen all the documentaries covering 447, however I’d not seen the MP version which is odd as I must have watched all his vids. Perhaps I may have discounted as I may have felt ‘nothing to learn here’. Which was a big mistake as MP covered it in a lot more detail in his usual easy to understand style.
Thanks again Chuck, especially your insight from your simulator experience.
I appreciate this has been covered before at the time.
I think I must have seen all the documentaries covering 447, however I’d not seen the MP version which is odd as I must have watched all his vids. Perhaps I may have discounted as I may have felt ‘nothing to learn here’. Which was a big mistake as MP covered it in a lot more detail in his usual easy to understand style.
Thanks again Chuck, especially your insight from your simulator experience.
Regarding the sidestick vs yoke - when I worked for BAE Systems down in Rochester we sold a kit which added an electromagneti device into existing Airbus sidesticks which was able to be switched on/off. The device mirrored the movement of one stick on the other, giving "feel" again so if one pilot moved a stick the other stick also moved but could be switched off if a single stick jammed.
Dont think many (if any at all) were sold but it was a great idea.
Dont think many (if any at all) were sold but it was a great idea.
croyde said:
I love his videos, very informative.
I'm no pilot and I have only once taken the control of a Cessna for a few minutes.
I think I'd much prefer a proper yoke than a diddly little computer joystick.
What do our resident pilots prefer and why do Airbus use this system whilst Boing stick with yokes?
I’ve flown Lockheed with a yoke, Boeing with a yoke and I’m now Airbus with a side stick and my favourite is……both I'm no pilot and I have only once taken the control of a Cessna for a few minutes.
I think I'd much prefer a proper yoke than a diddly little computer joystick.
What do our resident pilots prefer and why do Airbus use this system whilst Boing stick with yokes?
In a C-130J Hercules the yoke was great as it’s a very hands on aeroplane and if you’re at low level or air to air refuelling, the yoke gives a wonderful sense of connection. I generally hand flew it as much as I could and only used the autopilot when necessary.
However, in an airliner where the autopilot goes in at 400ft in the climb and comes out again at 1000ft on the approach, a yoke like on the Boeing is a pain and just gets in the way 99% of the time. With Airbus, the whole sidestick concept works really well and it means you get a foldaway tray table in front of you to eat your dinner off, something that could never happen with a Boeing
It did take me a little while to adjust to the sidestick but now I absolutely love it. AndrewGP said:
I’ve flown Lockheed with a yoke, Boeing with a yoke and I’m now Airbus with a side stick and my favourite is……both
In a C-130J Hercules the yoke was great as it’s a very hands on aeroplane and if you’re at low level or air to air refuelling, the yoke gives a wonderful sense of connection. I generally hand flew it as much as I could and only used the autopilot when necessary.
However, in an airliner where the autopilot goes in at 400ft in the climb and comes out again at 1000ft on the approach, a yoke like on the Boeing is a pain and just gets in the way 99% of the time. With Airbus, the whole sidestick concept works really well and it means you get a foldaway tray table in front of you to eat your dinner off, something that could never happen with a Boeing It did take me a little while to adjust to the sidestick but now I absolutely love it.
Main problem with the yoke on the c130j was the trim switch. There was no plug break from the switch. In a C-130J Hercules the yoke was great as it’s a very hands on aeroplane and if you’re at low level or air to air refuelling, the yoke gives a wonderful sense of connection. I generally hand flew it as much as I could and only used the autopilot when necessary.
However, in an airliner where the autopilot goes in at 400ft in the climb and comes out again at 1000ft on the approach, a yoke like on the Boeing is a pain and just gets in the way 99% of the time. With Airbus, the whole sidestick concept works really well and it means you get a foldaway tray table in front of you to eat your dinner off, something that could never happen with a Boeing
It did take me a little while to adjust to the sidestick but now I absolutely love it. The cabling from the trim switch (in fact all cabling for all switches), it goes down and in to the back of the dogs kennel and then out under the floor of the cockpit. It requires multiple stage checks when being replaced.
Ask me how I know.
I once spent 4 days pulling all the armour up out the cockpit (pita), then stripping half the floor and cockpit up to replace the yoke.
Only to find the wiring in the new yoke was wired up the wrong way at the trim switch so up trim resulted in down trim being applied. Christ did we do some swearing.
Although before my time on Hercs it was quite common apparently to demand a new yoke, take the trim switch out the new yoke and switch it with the unserviceable one in the currently fitted yoke. This meant a quick 30 min solder job instead. Before my time though.
It was such a common and pita job the Americans modified all there aircraft so there was a plug break at the base of the stick near the floor. Did the RAF. Hell no.
swampy442 said:
Speaking of Airbus sidesticks, I take it youve all heard about the RAF MRTT and the uncommanded dive incident?
A bit pedantic but I wouldn't say it was uncommanded. I'd say more 'inadvertent'. The stick was pushed forward and the aircraft reacted as designed. Just not to be expected having a bloody camera down there. Daft place to put it. 
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff