Electric ferries
Discussion
If electric ferry's will work anywhere it's short distances, like Dover to Calais. However if doing the run frequently, they will need mega charging links at each end.
As said, it's either a monumental cockup on P&O for not sorting that, or in order to get some poorly though out green points in which case whoever thought up the rules for the points has made a cockup.
As said, it's either a monumental cockup on P&O for not sorting that, or in order to get some poorly though out green points in which case whoever thought up the rules for the points has made a cockup.
Simpo Two said:
The amount of power required to push ships through water is stupendous. They really aren't candidates for electric power IMHO.
Commercially that ship makes no sense, so perhaps it was bought to get a grant or carbon trading deal.
That's not really the case is it. Commercially that ship makes no sense, so perhaps it was bought to get a grant or carbon trading deal.
"The energy efficiency in transport is the useful travelled distance, of passengers, goods or any type of load; divided by the total energy put into the transport propulsion means. The energy input might be rendered in several different types depending on the type of propulsion, and normally such energy is presented in liquid fuels, electrical energy or food energy.[1][2] The energy efficiency is also occasionally known as energy intensity."
Very, very roughly air travel uses 3MJ/passenger km, cars about 2, ships about 1, and rail about 0.6:
The cost of the batteries, charging time and infrastructure, to make a useful passenger ferry is the issue, not the absolute amount of energy required to move a load through a distance.
Hence the explosion of canal use in the Industrial Revolution, and then the expansion of the railways.
My understandings was that these ferries are hybrid, and the electrical usage was to be used in and around the docks to lower emissions (which is fair enough).
If the batteries were also used to charge electrical cars/trucks on board that would also make sense.
However there is not enough capacity in the local area to power the ships!
What does not make sense is that other countries who have taken this subsidy/levy to go green are using LNG powered ferries.
KIV there are three major LNG terminals with this region, (Kent/Dunkirk/Brugges), all can be bunkered onto Trucks then loaded onto to the ferry (could plug the trailer them in like a battery/external tank).. & eventually move onto bio fuels..
The Swiss company ABB must having been laughing their socks off when asked to supply batteries for ferries and no corresponding dockside equipment.
Crazy non joined up thinking.
If the batteries were also used to charge electrical cars/trucks on board that would also make sense.
However there is not enough capacity in the local area to power the ships!
What does not make sense is that other countries who have taken this subsidy/levy to go green are using LNG powered ferries.
KIV there are three major LNG terminals with this region, (Kent/Dunkirk/Brugges), all can be bunkered onto Trucks then loaded onto to the ferry (could plug the trailer them in like a battery/external tank).. & eventually move onto bio fuels..
The Swiss company ABB must having been laughing their socks off when asked to supply batteries for ferries and no corresponding dockside equipment.
Crazy non joined up thinking.
P&O are a massive company. I really can't beleive they would have made a mistake like that (as much as some would like to hope). My guess, as others have said, was it was to either gain a subsidy or tick some kind of green box which would bring a greater return than the cost of the additional hybrid equipment.
Hammersia said:
"The energy efficiency in transport is the useful travelled distance, of passengers, goods or any type of load; divided by the total energy put into the transport propulsion means.
As you later say, the issue here is charging time. A commercial vessel only makes money when it's at sea. If charging it with electricity takes longer than refuelling it with diesel, then it becomes less economically efficient and so the price of using it must rise to suit. Let's enjoy 10% inflation while we can... You also have to compare the costs of the two fuels.
TheLurker said:
P&O are a massive company. I really can't beleive they would have made a mistake like that (as much as some would like to hope). My guess, as others have said, was it was to either gain a subsidy or tick some kind of green box which would bring a greater return than the cost of the additional hybrid equipment.
Remember that P&O Ferries is not the same as P&O the cruise ship company.Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 27th February 11:42
Simpo Two said:
The amount of power required to push ships through water is stupendous. They really aren't candidates for electric power IMHO.
Since there are a lot of ships, like QM2, that are powered by electric motors you can’t be more wrong. Ships are also capable of carrying a lot of heavy batteries. If the charging problem can be sorted then a short voyage like Dover-Calais would be the ideal candidate.MBBlat said:
Since there are a lot of ships, like QM2, that are powered by electric motors you can’t be more wrong. Ships are also capable of carrying a lot of heavy batteries. If the charging problem can be sorted then a short voyage like Dover-Calais would be the ideal candidate.
1) Not the same thing at all. Internet says: The world's largest transatlantic liner, Queen Mary 2, sails today powered by two 30 MW GE marine gas turbine-generator sets and four diesel-generator sets.' It runs on gas and diesel. It doesn't have to be plugged in for a week to recharge before sailing. THAT is the problem and is the factor that was built in to my original statement. 2) 'IF'. Anything that needs an IF means 'At present it doesn't work
Chicken/egg.
Dover aren't going to build a charging dock while there's no electric ships.
The ships will last many years, shore power will catch up.
It might be short sighted to be buying diesel-only ferries now or in the near future?
"P&O BAD" probably sells a few papers in Dover though.
Dover aren't going to build a charging dock while there's no electric ships.
The ships will last many years, shore power will catch up.
It might be short sighted to be buying diesel-only ferries now or in the near future?
"P&O BAD" probably sells a few papers in Dover though.
Pure electric ferries already exist, there are quite a few in Norway.
A big benefit of a hybrid RO-RO on the Dover-Calais route is that they only use the engines properly for about 40 minutes of each 3 hours. The manouvreing about in the harbour and the whole time while loading/unloading will be when the main engines are running really inefficiently. Doing all that part under electric power only would save a lot of fuel.
It would make a lot less difference on the long routes where there might be 10 hours of running compared to an hour and a half loading/unloading, docking etc.
Of course, with Dover-Calais, a far more efficient option would be an electric train running through a tunnel which can carry cars and lorries .....
A big benefit of a hybrid RO-RO on the Dover-Calais route is that they only use the engines properly for about 40 minutes of each 3 hours. The manouvreing about in the harbour and the whole time while loading/unloading will be when the main engines are running really inefficiently. Doing all that part under electric power only would save a lot of fuel.
It would make a lot less difference on the long routes where there might be 10 hours of running compared to an hour and a half loading/unloading, docking etc.
Of course, with Dover-Calais, a far more efficient option would be an electric train running through a tunnel which can carry cars and lorries .....
OutInTheShed said:
"P&O BAD" probably sells a few papers in Dover though.
Well, more like 'P&O silly'. But it should be balanced by the reasons from P&O to explain their decision. Not 'eco-carbon-footprint-sustainable' soundbytes, but the solid commercial reasons.When something doesn't make sense, there's often a reason you don't know about.
Hybrid ships like this are much more efficient even if they can't be recharged using dock-side power, just being able to run their diesel engines at peak efficiency and store the energy saves a significant sum.
The new ships are also double-ended to save flipping around on each crossing, saves about 7 minutes and a ton of fuel.
As usual the lazy papers wanted a headline, so it's easy to focus on a fringe benefit in the design which can't yet be used.
The new ships are also double-ended to save flipping around on each crossing, saves about 7 minutes and a ton of fuel.
As usual the lazy papers wanted a headline, so it's easy to focus on a fringe benefit in the design which can't yet be used.
Cold said:
The Isle of Wight ferry service Wightlink has had a hybrid ferry in use since August 2018. The Victoria of Wight uses 17% less fuel than her younger, smaller sisters for the same 45 minute journey.
How is the electricity generated, and how much more did it cost than a normal ferry??Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff