Bulleid and his Pacifics
Discussion
Since I was a very young Chevrons I've always been interested in Oliver Bulleid's big Pacific steam locos he designed for the Southern Railway. The barber that we were taken to when we were single-digit age had a stock of old children's books to keep the young customers quiet and still. One of them was a 1950s book of 'great trains of the world', all with double-page spread hand-done oil paintings of the trains in question. And I could never decide which I liked more - the Western Pacific Railroad's 'California Zephyr' with stainless steel dome cars, pulled by a trio of EMD streamliners through the Feather River Canyon or the painting of an SR Merchant Navy in full Malachite Green/Sunshine Yellow livery at the head of a rake of Pullman coaches with the 'Golden Arrow' headboard and the big 'fleche d'or' on the flanks. It was such an impressive-looking machine, and the fact that it was square and smooth-sides immediately suggested to five-year old me that it was something special.
We lived in Hampshire at the time and during the summer holidays we were often taken for days out on the Mid-Hants Railway/Watercress Line. Where I once almost wet myself with excitement to find unrebuilt West Country-class 'Swanage' at the head of the train...because it was streamlined and therefore clearly the fastest, bestest train on the railway (I was blissfully unaware of the 25mph Light Railway Order speed limit in 1990...). The crew of 'Swanage' invited me into the cab at the stop at Alton - the first time I stepped on the footplate of any locomotive.
My Dad regaled me with a story of a 'boys' day out' that his father took him on in the 1965 - they lived in London at the time and took an express train to Southampton, hauled by a Merchant Navy. They had a go at timing it between mileposts with my grandfather's stopwatch and apparently got close to 90mph down the bank from Basingstoke. Then they took a boat tour around all the liners in Southampton Docks, took the 'Balmoral' across the Cowes, the Isle of Wight railway (hauled by an LSWR O2) from Cowes to Ryde, then the new hovercraft across to Southsea (I think the closure of the IoW railways had been announced, hence my grandfather's keenness to combine a trip on the railway with the new hovercraft), then a local train from Portsmouth to Winchester and another steam-hauled express (not quite as rapid) back to London. As a result he always had a 'thing' for Bulleid Pacifics too, although he preferred the rebuilt ones since that was how he remembered them on that day. For me the original styling of a 'Packet' or 'Spamcan', as they appeared in that book at the barbers (and like my beloved 'Swanage') always won the day.
When I still lived in Hampshire I used to occasionally make time to catch a Bulleid on a steam excursion - 'Clan Line' was rebuilt but always immaculately turned out, seemingly polished to a mirror sheen before every run. 'Tangmere' was unrebuilt and so was always worth making the effort to see if I was in roughly the right place at the right time.
I later began to read up on the design and engineering of the Bulleid locomotives, and found that there was a lot that appealed to my tastes - the same sort of tastes that gave me a love of weird old Citroens. A refusal to follow convention that was both intellectually admirable and practically frustrating. I spent ages trying to fathom how the Bulleid valve gear, with its oil bath and chain-driven miniaturised Walschaerts motion, worked. I came across the widely (and wildly-) -differing accounts and opinions on the Bulleid Pacifics and the merits (or lack of) of the original and rebuilt versions. Again, very like the love/hate opinions that surround the Citroen 2CV or the DS.
I later developed a theory seeing a lot of commonality between Oliver Bulleid and Alec Issigonis - both 'outsiders' to a very insular industry (Issigonis was born in Turkey to a Greek father and German mother, Bulleid was born in New Zealand and was therefore 'a colonial') and both showed an unusual amount of willingness to adopt and adapt ideas and practices from overseas in their work - in fact both drew heavily on French and American innovations in their respective fields. Both excelled when given tight limits to work in but freedom of direction (for Bulleid it was a powerful mixed-traffic Pacific that would stay within the strict weight/axle loading limits of the Southern's civil engineering while minimising maintenance and preparation/disposal time, for Issigonis it was the four-seater car that had to occupy a 10x4x4ft box). Both seemed to work more in the realms of theory than grubby reality, penning designs that showed little regard for the state of the norm or the state of material science at the time. Both produced designs that were brilliant conceptually but flawed in practice and both seemed to have a very real talent for talking their employers round to opening the corporate purse on grandiose schemes that promised much and delivered...results that are still very much up for debate decades later.
Like all the best machines, the Bulleid Pacifics are in many ways an expression of the man who designed them and they exhibit facets of his mind and character, good and bad. Just like Issigonis and the Mini. That's what makes them so compelling.
So does anyone else like Bulleid's locomotives? Or dislike them? Any experiences riding or crewing them? Memories? Thoughts?
We lived in Hampshire at the time and during the summer holidays we were often taken for days out on the Mid-Hants Railway/Watercress Line. Where I once almost wet myself with excitement to find unrebuilt West Country-class 'Swanage' at the head of the train...because it was streamlined and therefore clearly the fastest, bestest train on the railway (I was blissfully unaware of the 25mph Light Railway Order speed limit in 1990...). The crew of 'Swanage' invited me into the cab at the stop at Alton - the first time I stepped on the footplate of any locomotive.
My Dad regaled me with a story of a 'boys' day out' that his father took him on in the 1965 - they lived in London at the time and took an express train to Southampton, hauled by a Merchant Navy. They had a go at timing it between mileposts with my grandfather's stopwatch and apparently got close to 90mph down the bank from Basingstoke. Then they took a boat tour around all the liners in Southampton Docks, took the 'Balmoral' across the Cowes, the Isle of Wight railway (hauled by an LSWR O2) from Cowes to Ryde, then the new hovercraft across to Southsea (I think the closure of the IoW railways had been announced, hence my grandfather's keenness to combine a trip on the railway with the new hovercraft), then a local train from Portsmouth to Winchester and another steam-hauled express (not quite as rapid) back to London. As a result he always had a 'thing' for Bulleid Pacifics too, although he preferred the rebuilt ones since that was how he remembered them on that day. For me the original styling of a 'Packet' or 'Spamcan', as they appeared in that book at the barbers (and like my beloved 'Swanage') always won the day.
When I still lived in Hampshire I used to occasionally make time to catch a Bulleid on a steam excursion - 'Clan Line' was rebuilt but always immaculately turned out, seemingly polished to a mirror sheen before every run. 'Tangmere' was unrebuilt and so was always worth making the effort to see if I was in roughly the right place at the right time.
I later began to read up on the design and engineering of the Bulleid locomotives, and found that there was a lot that appealed to my tastes - the same sort of tastes that gave me a love of weird old Citroens. A refusal to follow convention that was both intellectually admirable and practically frustrating. I spent ages trying to fathom how the Bulleid valve gear, with its oil bath and chain-driven miniaturised Walschaerts motion, worked. I came across the widely (and wildly-) -differing accounts and opinions on the Bulleid Pacifics and the merits (or lack of) of the original and rebuilt versions. Again, very like the love/hate opinions that surround the Citroen 2CV or the DS.
I later developed a theory seeing a lot of commonality between Oliver Bulleid and Alec Issigonis - both 'outsiders' to a very insular industry (Issigonis was born in Turkey to a Greek father and German mother, Bulleid was born in New Zealand and was therefore 'a colonial') and both showed an unusual amount of willingness to adopt and adapt ideas and practices from overseas in their work - in fact both drew heavily on French and American innovations in their respective fields. Both excelled when given tight limits to work in but freedom of direction (for Bulleid it was a powerful mixed-traffic Pacific that would stay within the strict weight/axle loading limits of the Southern's civil engineering while minimising maintenance and preparation/disposal time, for Issigonis it was the four-seater car that had to occupy a 10x4x4ft box). Both seemed to work more in the realms of theory than grubby reality, penning designs that showed little regard for the state of the norm or the state of material science at the time. Both produced designs that were brilliant conceptually but flawed in practice and both seemed to have a very real talent for talking their employers round to opening the corporate purse on grandiose schemes that promised much and delivered...results that are still very much up for debate decades later.
Like all the best machines, the Bulleid Pacifics are in many ways an expression of the man who designed them and they exhibit facets of his mind and character, good and bad. Just like Issigonis and the Mini. That's what makes them so compelling.
So does anyone else like Bulleid's locomotives? Or dislike them? Any experiences riding or crewing them? Memories? Thoughts?
Simpo Two said:
I have one on an old jigsaw puzzle! Nice - but second to the Gresley A4 Pacifics IMHO.
I wonder why they were both called Pacifics?
Both locomotives have a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement. Pacific is the tag/code/name applied to that arrangement.I wonder why they were both called Pacifics?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation
My thread has arrived. To the extent that I have an original print – ie huge and printed for British Railways by Waterlow – of this poster framed at the foot of the stairs, which I bought myself for a big birthday. I found it on eBay. Joy of joys, turned out the vendor was the artist's daughter.
I imagine I was hauled to London by one on my first trip to London but I was only two so can't remember. Whenever I played with my Tri-ang 'Winston Churchill' Dad would put graphite powder on the rails at the end of the station, for more realism when pulling away
My next encounter with the real thing was newly restored 'Bodmin' at Ropley in 1980. I like all steam locomotives but love the crack-pot genius of the Bulleids.
Also, this was in my first railway book "The Modern World Book of Railways" published late '40s or early '50s. Probably similar to the one in 2 x chevrons book.
I imagine I was hauled to London by one on my first trip to London but I was only two so can't remember. Whenever I played with my Tri-ang 'Winston Churchill' Dad would put graphite powder on the rails at the end of the station, for more realism when pulling away
My next encounter with the real thing was newly restored 'Bodmin' at Ropley in 1980. I like all steam locomotives but love the crack-pot genius of the Bulleids. Also, this was in my first railway book "The Modern World Book of Railways" published late '40s or early '50s. Probably similar to the one in 2 x chevrons book.
Edited by Yertis on Monday 1st August 17:42
Simpo Two said:
I have one on an old jigsaw puzzle!
Found it - the 'Golden Arrow'!PS For all the rail boffs here, this book is a good read: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Railways-History-Drawings... - and heavy!
I've immense time for O Bulleid; some really quite profound and quite- different experimental thinking and engineering - even if it often wasnever quite was invested in enough but then Southern simply didn't have the resources of other Regions. Obviously , the Leader comes to mind, a genuinely radical approach using fully -enclosed high-speed steam engines in search of efficiency in a form factor and layout that ...looks like the archetypal modern diesel-electric.
Though after Southern region, he engineered a turf-burning version of Leader in Ireland - and that - for the problems it had to solve in terms of very-low-quality fuel availability balanced by efficiency, and Bulleid's second go at the concept - was considered a success.
And - I love his overhaul of Maunsell's Q1 class into the radical Austerity Q1. There I said it; it is a superb piece of design, and very successful in meeting its remit.
Oh, and the Bulleid-Firth-Brown wheel. It's contemporary with, but not, a 'boxspok'.
Though after Southern region, he engineered a turf-burning version of Leader in Ireland - and that - for the problems it had to solve in terms of very-low-quality fuel availability balanced by efficiency, and Bulleid's second go at the concept - was considered a success.
And - I love his overhaul of Maunsell's Q1 class into the radical Austerity Q1. There I said it; it is a superb piece of design, and very successful in meeting its remit.
Oh, and the Bulleid-Firth-Brown wheel. It's contemporary with, but not, a 'boxspok'.
Simpo Two said:
Simpo Two said:
I have one on an old jigsaw puzzle!
Found it - the 'Golden Arrow'!PS For all the rail boffs here, this book is a good read: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Railways-History-Drawings... - and heavy!
Boatbuoy said:
Both locomotives have a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement. Pacific is the tag/code/name applied to that arrangement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation
And the jury's still out as to how that arrangement got that name - was it because the first locomotives to that layout were a design from New Zealand Railways, built by Baldwin in the USA (and thus, from the builder's perspective, sent across the Pacific)? Or was it because the first American railroad to use the arrangement was the Missouri Pacific? Or was it just because it was a bigger version of the Atlantic (4-4-2), so called because it was first used Atlantic Coast Line Railroad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation
Huff said:
I've immense time for O Bulleid; some really quite profound and quite- different experimental thinking and engineering - even if it often wasnever quite was invested in enough but then Southern simply didn't have the resources of other Regions. Obviously , the Leader comes to mind, a genuinely radical approach using fully -enclosed high-speed steam engines in search of efficiency in a form factor and layout that ...looks like the archetypal modern diesel-electric.
Though after Southern region, he engineered a turf-burning version of Leader in Ireland - and that - for the problems it had to solve in terms of very-low-quality fuel availability balanced by efficiency, and Bulleid's second go at the concept - was considered a success.
And - I love his overhaul of Maunsell's Q1 class into the radical Austerity Q1. There I said it; it is a superb piece of design, and very successful in meeting its remit.
Oh, and the Bulleid-Firth-Brown wheel. It's contemporary with, but not, a 'boxspok'.
I am generally of the same opinion. And I also have a lot of time for the Q1 - not only was it a brilliant piece of design (Bulleid always excelled when 'boxed in' by strict limitations) but a very effective locomotive (the most powerful 0-6-0 ever run in Britain, although they went a lot better than they stopped, by all accounts) and I even like their looks in a sort of brutalist, function-over-form way. Though after Southern region, he engineered a turf-burning version of Leader in Ireland - and that - for the problems it had to solve in terms of very-low-quality fuel availability balanced by efficiency, and Bulleid's second go at the concept - was considered a success.
And - I love his overhaul of Maunsell's Q1 class into the radical Austerity Q1. There I said it; it is a superb piece of design, and very successful in meeting its remit.
Oh, and the Bulleid-Firth-Brown wheel. It's contemporary with, but not, a 'boxspok'.
I think Bulleid was one of the few prominent locomotive engineers to genuinely try and move away from the 'Stephensonian' locomotive blueprint that had existed over a century when he was at work. The Pacifics show the influence of the motor industry, with enclosed valve gear, pressure lubrication, chain drives, and a focus on a fast-moving, lightweight, short-stroke, free-breathing engine.
The Leader shows Bulleid at his best and his worst - conceptually a marvel and full of interesting ideas, and a genuine attempt to design a truly modern steam locomotive without any continuity with the past. But it arose from a requirement to replace the Southern's stud of ageing Victorian tank engines on branch line and empty stock movements, and as such was woefully (or willfully?) inappropriate for that brief. Some of the early proposals in the drawing office were a tank engine version of the Q1 kitted out for bi-directional running, which would have done the job admirably but Bulleid seems to have been the sort of thinker who would recoil at doing anything that smacked of predictability, convention or the path of least resistance. To keep up my Issigonis comparison, it's a bit like when BMC asked Issigonis to design them a Ford Cortina rival (something simple, stylish and conventional) and he gave them the Austin Maxi (which was complicated, ugly and innovative). Issigonis was perfectly capable of designing a Ford Cortina. But he refused to because it went against his intellectual principles. I get the sense that Bulleid was similarly adverse to 'just' providing the Southern with a bog standard 2-6-2 tank engine.
The Leader was also crammed with far too many innovations in one go. Steam motor bogies, chain drives, sleeve valves, dry-liner welded firebox, double-ended bi-directional design and more. If Bulleid was set on a total-adhesion articulated tank engine with bi-directional ability he could have just gone to Beyer-Peacock and had them to adapt one of their smaller Garratt designs which would have - functionally - done everything the Leader was supposed to do. Or he could have gone to Sentinel and worked with them to produce something like the steam motor locomotive they'd built for Colombia (six axles, one high-speed compound steam motor per axle, 500psi boiler pressure - very Bulleid-esque!). I also have to seriously question whether the Southern board would have signed off on a single Leader (let alone a whole batch of five) if they weren't safe in the knowledge that nationalisation would soon render them someone else's problem if they didn't work. But, equally, Bulleid had proven the nay-sayers wrong before... On the rare occasions that it worked the Leader could put in some truly impressive performances...but there was no escaping that it was a 150-ton, 70-ft long six-axle giant that was (supposedly) going to replace a bunch of 60-ton 0-4-4 tank engines. The later 'Turf Burner' ditched the sleeve valves (which on the Leader prototype needed so much lubrication that the thing consumed more lube oil per mile than a diesel locomotive burnt fuel...) and went for a centre cab and was much more effective.
Bulleid's activities with electric and diesel traction are also often overlooked - the Southern of course majored on electric traction during his tenure and he was ultimately responsible for the SR's very successful stock of electric multiple units (although the Chief Electrical Engineer and the chaps at English Electric did most of the actual work, to give credit where it's due). His trio of diesel-electric prototypes were highly effective and formed the basis of what became the BR Class 40.
Yertis said:
My thread has arrived. To the extent that I have an original print – ie huge and printed for British Railways by Waterlow – of this poster framed at the foot of the stairs, which I bought myself for a big birthday. I found it on eBay. Joy of joys, turned out the vendor was the artist's daughter.
Where's the mouse?I was just too young for steam.
Lived in Orpington so it were all 3rd rail 'leccie.
The only non-preserved bit I can remember was the last train on the Bluebell line in Sussex. Grandparents were in Rotherfield and the line could just be seen from the porch.
Yes love the Bullied Pacific’s and was totally obsessed with his ideas of steam loco development when I was a kid.
I’m slightly too young to have seen the locos in service ( not to mention living 200 miles too far north) but did see a lot of them down at Barry on my memorable trip down there in the late seventies.
I was convinced that Steam would make a come back to the railways when I was at college and imagined them looking very much like a Leader. Some might remember when we were told there would be no Oil left by the year 2000 and we would HAVE to go back to Coal, or use Nuclear. MY future steam locos boiled their water with tiny Nuclear reactors. ( I think they are going to be called SMR’s
) That’s what OVS would have done.
I’m slightly too young to have seen the locos in service ( not to mention living 200 miles too far north) but did see a lot of them down at Barry on my memorable trip down there in the late seventies.
I was convinced that Steam would make a come back to the railways when I was at college and imagined them looking very much like a Leader. Some might remember when we were told there would be no Oil left by the year 2000 and we would HAVE to go back to Coal, or use Nuclear. MY future steam locos boiled their water with tiny Nuclear reactors. ( I think they are going to be called SMR’s
) That’s what OVS would have done. I love the Bullied Pacific’s, in spam can and rebuilt forms I think they are incredible looking machines. When I work stone trains into Stewart’s Lane (site if the former steam shed) I often see 35028 Clan Line working charters in the area, even at slow speed over the junction there it’s an impressive sight. I can’t look at them though without thinking about The Kinks ‘Waterloo Sunset’ and vice versa, they’re entwined together somehow.
Back in May 2006 I was shunting in Rugby Yard when Clan Line arrived light engine on the adjacent goods line, it came to a stand and wandering over for a chat with the crew it turned out that it was in serious trouble, I forget why exactly but It was declared a failure and I had to drag it into the yard with a Class 66, where it was stabled four the next three days. Once safely in the yard I climbed up into the cab to have a good old nosey around and almost passed out from the heat in the enclosed cab!
One of my mates at Reading depot is best mates with the guy who was the fireman on Sir Winston Churchill’s funeral train back in January 1965, the loco that day was 35051 ‘Sir Winston Churchill’, naturally enough.
Back in May 2006 I was shunting in Rugby Yard when Clan Line arrived light engine on the adjacent goods line, it came to a stand and wandering over for a chat with the crew it turned out that it was in serious trouble, I forget why exactly but It was declared a failure and I had to drag it into the yard with a Class 66, where it was stabled four the next three days. Once safely in the yard I climbed up into the cab to have a good old nosey around and almost passed out from the heat in the enclosed cab!
One of my mates at Reading depot is best mates with the guy who was the fireman on Sir Winston Churchill’s funeral train back in January 1965, the loco that day was 35051 ‘Sir Winston Churchill’, naturally enough.
I too, am a huge fan of Bulleid Pacifics. I still have my (Triang) Sir Winston Churchill and am involved with "Boscastle" on the GCR. Given that part of his brief on the Southern was to Modernise the steam fleet it is not surprising how his designs evolved - what is surprising though, is how he was able to push them through at such a fraught time in WW2.
We need a picture.....
We need a picture.....
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