Hill Helicopters
Discussion
Surprised if this hasn't been raised on here previously, but what is the collective (geddit?) view of this bunch www.hillhelicopters.com.
The guy leading it clearly views himself as the Elon Musk of aviation - you'll have to plough through the 'disruptive', game changer blah blah - obtained a fat Innovate UK grant (ie your and my taxes), and is planning on bringing to market a sleek sexy turbine helicopter priced at Supercar money, the only gotcha being that you have to participate in the build. His stated aim is to attract wealthy non-pilots who would include it in their transportation fleet, alongside the Ferrari, Bentley etc etc.
Allegedly in 2023 the skies will be full of these things, priced at £495000 (which is - trust me - a laughably small sum for the promised product).
The helicopter world seems divided into the two camps of messiah and chancer. I know which one I'm in.
The guy leading it clearly views himself as the Elon Musk of aviation - you'll have to plough through the 'disruptive', game changer blah blah - obtained a fat Innovate UK grant (ie your and my taxes), and is planning on bringing to market a sleek sexy turbine helicopter priced at Supercar money, the only gotcha being that you have to participate in the build. His stated aim is to attract wealthy non-pilots who would include it in their transportation fleet, alongside the Ferrari, Bentley etc etc.
Allegedly in 2023 the skies will be full of these things, priced at £495000 (which is - trust me - a laughably small sum for the promised product).
The helicopter world seems divided into the two camps of messiah and chancer. I know which one I'm in.
There was this: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Since when, it appears they've named some team members, given a price and er...it's turned into something of a kit helicopter.
ETA - seems the kit-built HX50 is planned for 2023 with a certified HC50 version following in 2026.
Since when, it appears they've named some team members, given a price and er...it's turned into something of a kit helicopter.
ETA - seems the kit-built HX50 is planned for 2023 with a certified HC50 version following in 2026.
Edited by JxJ Jr. on Wednesday 3rd February 11:28
Aren't there various rules that if you build more a certain proportion yourself it falls in to a different category making certification a lot easier?
I'm not convinced the kind of person with half a million to spend on a helicopters is going to be the kind of person who'd happily build one though
I'm not convinced the kind of person with half a million to spend on a helicopters is going to be the kind of person who'd happily build one though
RizzoTheRat said:
Aren't there various rules that if you build more a certain proportion yourself it falls in to a different category making certification a lot easier?
I'm not convinced the kind of person with half a million to spend on a helicopters is going to be the kind of person who'd happily build one though
The person with half a million to spend on a helicopters is going to be the kind of person how will employ someone to build it for him. In the same way that some very rich folk employ someone to manage their fleet of cars.I'm not convinced the kind of person with half a million to spend on a helicopters is going to be the kind of person who'd happily build one though
Steve
I'm just a casual observer, but would very much like it to succeed.
I gather Dr Jason Hill is doing a Zoom presentation at the Helicopter Club of GB AGM on 7 March.
That will be to a well informed, yet also fairly sceptical but potentially supportive, audience. So, it will test the credibility and optimism for the project. Could also be a good candidate for the RAeS Cierva Lecture.
I guess, if it makes progress, one of the big players will move in to try and intercept it - rather like the Kopter SH09 (formerly the Marenco Swisshelicopter SH09) was taken over by Leonardo.
I gather Dr Jason Hill is doing a Zoom presentation at the Helicopter Club of GB AGM on 7 March.
That will be to a well informed, yet also fairly sceptical but potentially supportive, audience. So, it will test the credibility and optimism for the project. Could also be a good candidate for the RAeS Cierva Lecture.
I guess, if it makes progress, one of the big players will move in to try and intercept it - rather like the Kopter SH09 (formerly the Marenco Swisshelicopter SH09) was taken over by Leonardo.
Although having cheaper helicopters etc sounds great, the fact is helicopters are difficult to fly and pilots really need to be current on them, even more than fixed wing imho.
Flying like sailing is full of stories where people with a few £ buy a boat/aircraft/helicopter etc and get into trouble. Often due to taking their confidence in their business or role that made them wealthy into another environment with very different risks.
On a smaller scale we see the same with drones where as price drops and they become easier to operate, barriers to entry fall and all sorts of people are buying them resulting in increased safety events and stricter regulation.
Longer term, I think the future for personal air vehicles (like cars) is likely to be automated and part of a larger network and system, rather than us all owning and flying our own helicopter or jet pack.
The helicopter does look awesome though.
Flying like sailing is full of stories where people with a few £ buy a boat/aircraft/helicopter etc and get into trouble. Often due to taking their confidence in their business or role that made them wealthy into another environment with very different risks.
On a smaller scale we see the same with drones where as price drops and they become easier to operate, barriers to entry fall and all sorts of people are buying them resulting in increased safety events and stricter regulation.
Longer term, I think the future for personal air vehicles (like cars) is likely to be automated and part of a larger network and system, rather than us all owning and flying our own helicopter or jet pack.
The helicopter does look awesome though.
joshleb said:
Am I right in thinking that if something goes wrong on a helicopter - you're dead.
A plane - try and glide to safety
A yacht - you'll have a tender or safety raft or something, plus you can jump out and not die instantly.
No.A plane - try and glide to safety
A yacht - you'll have a tender or safety raft or something, plus you can jump out and not die instantly.
You can do the helicopter equivalent of gliding although with less choice of where to put down. Engine failures on gas turbines are pretty unusual in any case.
In bad weather a helicopter should in theory be safer because you can land in a field if visibility gets too bad, but in practice pilots often press on for just that reason then find they can't see the ground.
The other common cause of light aircraft accidents (excluding playing silly buggers at low level) is trying to get in or out of too short strips. Again a theoretical advantage for a helicopter, except that if stick to airfields there isn't so much point in having a helicopter. So people try and get into gardens instead.
It's the type of journey that's responsible for the helicopter accident rate more than the mechanical aspects.
Miserablegit said:
I thought it was gearboxes rather than engines that generally went on helicopters which then nerfed any autorotate option.
Only if the gearbox seizes the drive to the main rotors completely, otherwise one can still auto.Tail rotor means lots of spins as you cease forward flight.
Well, I would rather have an engine failure in a helicopter than a light plane any day of the week! They can land with almost zero forward speed, where a plane will still be travelling at c60mph. As long as the main gearbox doesn't go south or the blades fall off, any incident is survivable. But you need to identify any issue pretty quickly and take appropriate action.
The type I fly (Bell JetRanger is statistically the safest single engined flying machine.
The biggest problem with helicopters is the person flying it.
The type I fly (Bell JetRanger is statistically the safest single engined flying machine.
The biggest problem with helicopters is the person flying it.
Steve_D said:
RizzoTheRat said:
Aren't there various rules that if you build more a certain proportion yourself it falls in to a different category making certification a lot easier?
I'm not convinced the kind of person with half a million to spend on a helicopters is going to be the kind of person who'd happily build one though
The person with half a million to spend on a helicopters is going to be the kind of person how will employ someone to build it for him. In the same way that some very rich folk employ someone to manage their fleet of cars.I'm not convinced the kind of person with half a million to spend on a helicopters is going to be the kind of person who'd happily build one though
Steve
k wouldn’t be flying around in a kit helicopter put together by some random person and entrusting my life to them. Look at rotorway helicopters. They seem to have an alarming chance of killing you. Even the R22 that I learnt in was a death trap waiting to happen (tail boom strike, low inertia blades (can’t remember the time allowed to fully lower the collective in having an engine failure (few seconds) before the blades would slow to the point you couldn’t recover rotor rpm.
I’d go out and buy squirrel or an R44 turbine or jet ranger (yes they all cost more then the kit helicopter but I sure as s
t wouldn’t be buying a kit helicopter to entrust mine and my families safety in. I learnt to fly helicopters in an R22 when I was younger (couldn’t afford to complete my training but managed to solo). Flying helicopters isn’t something to be undertaken lightly. It cost a shed load of money to learn. And unless you can devote enough time to be competent (there is a vast difference between competent and current) then you’re and accident waiting to happen.
I was offered a lift to a business meeting in a customer's helicopter. I spoke to another customer who flies fixed wing and he told me... don't do it.
I don't know what it was, but apparently there's a big problem with black market life expired components for cheap choppers, which he says is why they seem to fall out of the sky quite often.
I don't know what it was, but apparently there's a big problem with black market life expired components for cheap choppers, which he says is why they seem to fall out of the sky quite often.
Landcrab_Six said:
I was offered a lift to a business meeting in a customer's helicopter. I spoke to another customer who flies fixed wing and he told me... don't do it.
I don't know what it was, but apparently there's a big problem with black market life expired components for cheap choppers, which he says is why they seem to fall out of the sky quite often.
I’m not so sure about the black market parts thing. It certainly was an issue in aviation a while back. I work in aviation now (RAF) and every part I got to an aircraft has an extensive history and certificate of compliance. I attach it to the job card for the work I do. I don't know what it was, but apparently there's a big problem with black market life expired components for cheap choppers, which he says is why they seem to fall out of the sky quite often.
They seem to fall out the sky more often because they are more difficult to fly and cost more to rent for an hour (about 3 times the price for a comparable aircraft to helicopter). Elstovy mentioned earlier about being current. That is in part where the problem lies. There is a vast difference between current and competent.
Don’t quote me but it’s what 5hrs a year to stay current in a civil private light aircraft (been a while since I had any interest in civil aviation). That makes you current to get airborne it doesn’t make you competent to get back down. Especially when the weather closes in. Tech issues happen. The airspace gets busy or there is pressure to get your rented helicopter back or face a hearty bill. What’s an R22 (about the cheapest helicopter to rent there is) £500 an hour.
It’s easy to get yourself in to trouble.
Landcrab_Six said:
I was offered a lift to a business meeting in a customer's helicopter. I spoke to another customer who flies fixed wing and he told me... don't do it.
I don't know what it was, but apparently there's a big problem with black market life expired components for cheap choppers, which he says is why they seem to fall out of the sky quite often.
Asking a fixed wing pilot about a helicopter and they will all come out with the same gags: 'so ugly the earth repels them', '1000 components turning at different speeds all the way to the crash' etc etc. But they are just jealous because we get all the girls.I don't know what it was, but apparently there's a big problem with black market life expired components for cheap choppers, which he says is why they seem to fall out of the sky quite often.
As a general rule of thumb, as long as the a/c has a reg beginning with a 'G' (UK registered) and the pilot has enough hours and currency, I wouldn't even hesitate. Personally, I wouldn't get into a Robinson R22 with an inexperienced pilot: as someone alluded to earlier, if the engine quits in a high load situation, the pilot has less than a second to identify the problem and take corrective action in this type. I have 350 hours on them so have massive respect for the machine.
On the black market issue, there are always rumours but I can't recall an incident where an illegal component has caused a crash, at least in this country. For aircraft on a European register (eg beginning with G, F, D etc) the audit process for maintenance facilities is completely onerous, and all parts have to have the correct trace paperwork before they can be fitted, and overhauls are completed only in approved facilities.
MB140 said:
They seem to fall out the sky more often because they are more difficult to fly and cost more to rent for an hour (about 3 times the price for a comparable aircraft to helicopter). Elstovy mentioned earlier about being current. That is in part where the problem lies. There is a vast difference between current and competent.
Don’t quote me but it’s what 5hrs a year to stay current in a civil private light aircraft (been a while since I had any interest in civil aviation). That makes you current to get airborne it doesn’t make you competent to get back down. Especially when the weather closes in. Tech issues happen. The airspace gets busy or there is pressure to get your rented helicopter back or face a hearty bill. What’s an R22 (about the cheapest helicopter to rent there is) £500 an hour.
It’s easy to get yourself in to trouble.
For commercial pilots, there are even more stringent rules.
joshleb said:
Am I right in thinking that if something goes wrong on a helicopter - you're dead.
A plane - try and glide to safety
A yacht - you'll have a tender or safety raft or something, plus you can jump out and not die instantly.
Whether true or not, it definitely feels true.A plane - try and glide to safety
A yacht - you'll have a tender or safety raft or something, plus you can jump out and not die instantly.
We’re thinking of splitting our time between where the wife and I grew up, which means the Pyrenees and Northumberland, and it nay make sense / be fun to fly ourselves between them.
A fast-ish light plane feels plausible, a helicopter doesn’t.
Northernboy said:
Whether true or not, it definitely feels true.
We’re thinking of splitting our time between where the wife and I grew up, which means the Pyrenees and Northumberland, and it nay make sense / be fun to fly ourselves between them.
A fast-ish light plane feels plausible, a helicopter doesn’t.
I would have thought the speed differential alone would make the fixed wing option an automatic choice for that sort of distance. A decent IFR tourer (Cirrus SR22 for example) will cruise at 180kts, If you could stretch to a PC12 you'd be looking at 220kts. A Jet Ranger will do 120kts. That's 12.5 hours from Northumberland to the Pyrenees vs 7 in the Pilatus (with room for the family to stretch out in the back).We’re thinking of splitting our time between where the wife and I grew up, which means the Pyrenees and Northumberland, and it nay make sense / be fun to fly ourselves between them.
A fast-ish light plane feels plausible, a helicopter doesn’t.
LimaDelta said:
I would have thought the speed differential alone would make the fixed wing option an automatic choice for that sort of distance. A decent IFR tourer (Cirrus SR22 for example) will cruise at 180kts, If you could stretch to a PC12 you'd be looking at 220kts. A Jet Ranger will do 120kts. That's 12.5 hours from Northumberland to the Pyrenees vs 7 in the Pilatus (with room for the family to stretch out in the back).
Yes, I think so. A friend has a Cirrus, and it seems to be a nice choice.I’ll probably want my own landing strip in France, and will use Morpeth in Northumberland.
I’ve a lot of research to do first to understand the feasibility, and am likely to only ever want to make the trip in ideal conditions, which may limit how practical the idea is.
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