MS Estonia mystery
Discussion
I remember this happening and seeing a documentary interviewing the British survivor, I also remember the plan to bury it in tonnes of gravel which seemed a bit odd at the time:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/04/mayb...
I know Sweden has had fun and games with unknown subs in the past but could this have been a similar scenario?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/04/mayb...
I know Sweden has had fun and games with unknown subs in the past but could this have been a similar scenario?
I remember the time of the sinking. I worked as a Marine Surveyor at the time and the MS Estonia was registered with the Classification Society I was employed by so the tragedy felt close to home.
A few days later I took a call from head office asking me to find all the paperwork for an inspection I had undertaken on a batch of steel. It was thought that some steel from that batch may have been used to manufacture the hinge or locking pins on the MS Estonia bow visor.
All my paperwork and test certificates were in order but I felt physically sick thinking that I may have made some error or overlooked something which would have led to this tragedy.
I did hear later on that the batch I had inspected had not been used for any bow visor fittings, but that feeling when I thought that one error by me might have led to so many fatalities has never left me.
A few days later I took a call from head office asking me to find all the paperwork for an inspection I had undertaken on a batch of steel. It was thought that some steel from that batch may have been used to manufacture the hinge or locking pins on the MS Estonia bow visor.
All my paperwork and test certificates were in order but I felt physically sick thinking that I may have made some error or overlooked something which would have led to this tragedy.
I did hear later on that the batch I had inspected had not been used for any bow visor fittings, but that feeling when I thought that one error by me might have led to so many fatalities has never left me.
Scrump said:
I remember the time of the sinking. I worked as a Marine Surveyor at the time and the MS Estonia was registered with the Classification Society I was employed by so the tragedy felt close to home.
A few days later I took a call from head office asking me to find all the paperwork for an inspection I had undertaken on a batch of steel. It was thought that some steel from that batch may have been used to manufacture the hinge or locking pins on the MS Estonia bow visor.
All my paperwork and test certificates were in order but I felt physically sick thinking that I may have made some error or overlooked something which would have led to this tragedy.
I did hear later on that the batch I had inspected had not been used for any bow visor fittings, but that feeling when I thought that one error by me might have led to so many fatalities has never left me.
wow - I can't even begin to imagine! A few days later I took a call from head office asking me to find all the paperwork for an inspection I had undertaken on a batch of steel. It was thought that some steel from that batch may have been used to manufacture the hinge or locking pins on the MS Estonia bow visor.
All my paperwork and test certificates were in order but I felt physically sick thinking that I may have made some error or overlooked something which would have led to this tragedy.
I did hear later on that the batch I had inspected had not been used for any bow visor fittings, but that feeling when I thought that one error by me might have led to so many fatalities has never left me.
Scrump said:
I remember the time of the sinking. I worked as a Marine Surveyor at the time and the MS Estonia was registered with the Classification Society I was employed by so the tragedy felt close to home.
A few days later I took a call from head office asking me to find all the paperwork for an inspection I had undertaken on a batch of steel. It was thought that some steel from that batch may have been used to manufacture the hinge or locking pins on the MS Estonia bow visor.
All my paperwork and test certificates were in order but I felt physically sick thinking that I may have made some error or overlooked something which would have led to this tragedy.
I did hear later on that the batch I had inspected had not been used for any bow visor fittings, but that feeling when I thought that one error by me might have led to so many fatalities has never left me.
I remember my father experiencing something similar in the eighties. There was a rail crash (Clapham?) and the cause was something to do with the signals. Well, he'd actually inspected some of the components connected with those signals, before they were installed. Turned out to be an installation/wiring issue in the end, I believe. Must have been very worrying for him, especially as there were fatalities.A few days later I took a call from head office asking me to find all the paperwork for an inspection I had undertaken on a batch of steel. It was thought that some steel from that batch may have been used to manufacture the hinge or locking pins on the MS Estonia bow visor.
All my paperwork and test certificates were in order but I felt physically sick thinking that I may have made some error or overlooked something which would have led to this tragedy.
I did hear later on that the batch I had inspected had not been used for any bow visor fittings, but that feeling when I thought that one error by me might have led to so many fatalities has never left me.
Simpo Two said:
So what was the likely cause? Collision with a submarine?
A crack in the hull could easily have been caused by the ship hitting the ocean floor, I don't see how this information on its own is at all helpful in working out what happened. 1000's of tonnes of metal does sink quite quickly, and it's not unusual for ships to break up when hitting the bottom. If it was a collision with a sub then a) another nation would have reported it, and b) it is inconsistent with the survivors' reports, and doesn't explain why the bow doors opened which allowed the water in.
Edited by Condi on Monday 5th October 18:15
As a professional Naval Architect I'm confused by the statement that only a hole below the waterline could cause it to sink so rapidly - a small amount of water on the car deck would cause the ship to roll over and sink very quickly as the Herald of Free Enterprise found out. The loud bang could very easily come from the visor locks being broken by a rogue wave.
MBBlat said:
As a professional Naval Architect I'm confused by the statement that only a hole below the waterline could cause it to sink so rapidly - a small amount of water on the car deck would cause the ship to roll over and sink very quickly as the Herald of Free Enterprise found out. The loud bang could very easily come from the visor locks being broken by a rogue wave.
The issue of instability due to water entering the open car deck had been flagged after, I think, static tank experiments some time before the Herald incident but no-one took much notice.Condi said:
Simpo Two said:
So what was the likely cause? Collision with a submarine?
A crack in the hull could easily have been caused by the ship hitting the ocean floor, I don't see how this information on its own is at all helpful in working out what happened. 1000's of tonnes of metal does sink quite quickly, and it's not unusual for ships to break up when hitting the bottom. If it was a collision with a sub then a) another nation would have reported it, and b) it is inconsistent with the survivors' reports, and doesn't explain why the bow doors opened which allowed the water in.
Edited by Condi on Monday 5th October 18:15
Over in trucking forums there were loads of rumours of very strange loads on trucks on the ferry for many months and the likelihood of governments being embarrassed if the rumours were true .
From others that worked that route alsorts of clandestine stuff got moved around by unmarked trucks driven by fit looking non trucker types .
All a bit before my time on the European roads .
From others that worked that route alsorts of clandestine stuff got moved around by unmarked trucks driven by fit looking non trucker types .
All a bit before my time on the European roads .
Chrisgr31 said:
Wouldnt a submarine which hot it hard enough to punch a hole in it have some pretty substantial damage? I am not a great expert in submarines but I have a feeling they all have rounded bows, hows that going to punch a hole in a ship?
p?
A military sub has a degree of strength in it's bows that a normal ship, hit amidships doesn't have. 10,000 tonnes of submarine is easily going to punch a huge rounded hole into the side of a ferry. The bows of a sub are also dominated by the sonar array, which sits outside the pressure hull and actually forms a somewhat sacrifical member, that can recieve a lot of damage without compromising the pressure hull. As the pressure hull is designed specifically to withstand huge water pressures (500m of water is 50 bar of pressure, which adds up to a simply gigantic force over the area of the hull)p?
The problem i have with the hit by a sub story is
1) the damage on the ship would be extremely obvious. A large, rounded dent, with hull plates pushed inwards. A totally different damage profile to any hull failure from overpressure or bottom impact damage (more likely to be a tearing type damage)
2) why would a modern sub travel at such shallow depths, especially in bad weather, it woudl be far more normal (and comfortably) to travel submerged to get out of the waves / swell etc.
grumpy52 said:
Over in trucking forums there were loads of rumours of very strange loads on trucks on the ferry for many months and the likelihood of governments being embarrassed if the rumours were true .
From others that worked that route alsorts of clandestine stuff got moved around by unmarked trucks driven by fit looking non trucker types .
All a bit before my time on the European roads .
Strange loads? Like what? From others that worked that route alsorts of clandestine stuff got moved around by unmarked trucks driven by fit looking non trucker types .
All a bit before my time on the European roads .
I'm well aware how nuclear stuff and explosive things move, so what other "clandestine stuff" moves around on unmarked trucks?
Condi said:
Strange loads? Like what?
I'm well aware how nuclear stuff and explosive things move, so what other "clandestine stuff" moves around on unmarked trucks?
Stolen Russian tech.I'm well aware how nuclear stuff and explosive things move, so what other "clandestine stuff" moves around on unmarked trucks?
Riigikogu Committee of Investigation to Ascertain the Circumstances Related to the Export of Military Equipment from the Territory of the Republic of Estonia on the Ferry Estonia in 1994
FINAL REPORT
report said:
The basis for forming the Riigikogu Committee of Investigation to Ascertain the Circumstances Related to the Export of Military Equipment from the Territory of the Republic of Estonia on the Ferry Estonia in 1994 (hereinafter “Committee” and “Committee of Investigation”) was the allegation made by former Swedish customs officer Lennart Henriksson in the 30 November 2004 STV1 transmission Uppdrag granskning, to the effect that in 1994, immediately prior to the sinking of the ferry Estonia, he had witnessed the Swedish Armed Forces use the ferry Estonia for exporting equipment from Tallinn to Stockholm. Customs officer Lennart Henriksson claimed that he and his immediate superior were called to the Customs Board on 14 September, where he was given direct orders to let pass unchecked the contents of vehicles with certain registration numbers. Another vehicle with a larger cargo passed through the Stockholm harbour unchecked on 20 September of the same year, as agreed. Obliged to “fake” the customs check, Lennart Henriksson cast an eye on the vehicles in September 1994 and found that the cargo, in all likelihood, consisted of electronic equipment for the military industry.
-snip-
At the meeting with the former chief of Swedish Military Intelligence MUST Major General Erik Rosander on 2 June 2006 the Committee delegation was given a more detailed overview of the transporting of military equipment from Estonia to Sweden that took place on 14 and 20 September 1994. According to Major General, the Swedish side took care of the logistic plan and the whole transport after the "Estonian side" had informed them of the existence of military technology. According to Erik Rosander a Volvo pickup vehicle was sent to Estonia that transported the goods to Stockholm on ferry Estonia in 14 September 1994. During the operation it turned out in Estonia that it was not possible to transport the electronics and the documents to Sweden in one shipment, therefore a week later, on the ferry Estonia that departed from Tallinn on 19 September another shipment with a Volkswagen van took place which according to Erik Rosander brought all materials to Sweden.
https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/pdf/Enclosure...-snip-
At the meeting with the former chief of Swedish Military Intelligence MUST Major General Erik Rosander on 2 June 2006 the Committee delegation was given a more detailed overview of the transporting of military equipment from Estonia to Sweden that took place on 14 and 20 September 1994. According to Major General, the Swedish side took care of the logistic plan and the whole transport after the "Estonian side" had informed them of the existence of military technology. According to Erik Rosander a Volvo pickup vehicle was sent to Estonia that transported the goods to Stockholm on ferry Estonia in 14 September 1994. During the operation it turned out in Estonia that it was not possible to transport the electronics and the documents to Sweden in one shipment, therefore a week later, on the ferry Estonia that departed from Tallinn on 19 September another shipment with a Volkswagen van took place which according to Erik Rosander brought all materials to Sweden.
Edited by bigandclever on Tuesday 6th October 02:29
ash73 said:
Could have been someone blowing up the equipment, rather than the equipment itself. Either a terrorist attack, or another country didn't like their kit being stolen?
Someone thought so..https://www.newstatesman.com/node/195304
article said:
The most likely explanation is that British intelligence was behind the smuggling operation, working with the Swedes, and that a mine was placed by people acting for the Russian government in an attempt to stop them.
Edited by bigandclever on Tuesday 6th October 02:31
That looks barely below/at the waterline, would a submarine have done that?
I'm not so sure, even if it did, why would it have been near the surface as has been asked already, especially with it being so rough that night?
Off topic slightly, I always thought the design was weird, with the bridge being set back on the superstructure, anyone know why this was? Looked like it would just cause problems seeing the bow (which I believe think they could!)
I'm not so sure, even if it did, why would it have been near the surface as has been asked already, especially with it being so rough that night?
Off topic slightly, I always thought the design was weird, with the bridge being set back on the superstructure, anyone know why this was? Looked like it would just cause problems seeing the bow (which I believe think they could!)
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