Declared obsolete
Discussion
Reading about the WW2 history of various aircraft, I often read that the type was 'declared obsolete' on such and such a date, though often the type was still used for a while afterwards. What exactly did 'declared obsolete' mean? Don't bother to train anybody else on it? Don't bother to repair them if broken?
A new version or a new type is arriving in service to replace it.
By the end of the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire Mk I was becoming obsolete and the Mk II was beginning to replace it. By early 1941, the Mk II itself was obsolete and the Mk V was replacing it - and so on.
When the older types became obsolete, most were not unceremoniously scrapped. If the airframes or engines still had some life in them, they were either transferred to less front line areas, such as Scotland - or transferred to training units.
Some types became obsolete because it was obvious that they couldn't hold their own against the enemy. These aircraft were usually withdrawn quite quickly and transferred to second line duties such as training or target towing. Examples of that would be the Fairey Battle and the Boulton Paul Defiant.
By the end of the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire Mk I was becoming obsolete and the Mk II was beginning to replace it. By early 1941, the Mk II itself was obsolete and the Mk V was replacing it - and so on.
When the older types became obsolete, most were not unceremoniously scrapped. If the airframes or engines still had some life in them, they were either transferred to less front line areas, such as Scotland - or transferred to training units.
Some types became obsolete because it was obvious that they couldn't hold their own against the enemy. These aircraft were usually withdrawn quite quickly and transferred to second line duties such as training or target towing. Examples of that would be the Fairey Battle and the Boulton Paul Defiant.
I'm just reading about night fighter ops (a book called "Night Intruder"). When the Germans started sending He111s to launch V1s over the North Sea, radar-equipped Beaufighters were "brought out of retirement" because the Mosquitoes by then in use could not fly slowly enough to intercept the slow-flying He111s effectively.
V8 Fettler said:
Obsolete generally means "no longer manufactured". The B-52 is obsolete, yet still effective.
I don't think that is really the definition. In the context of aircraft, it's really meant to indicate that the aircraft is no longer suitable for its original role as its capabilities have been superseded by either new versions of the same aircraft or by new aircraft entirely. The Hawker Hurricane was manufactured throughout World War 2 but in many respects it was obsolete by 1942.
Eric Mc said:
V8 Fettler said:
Obsolete generally means "no longer manufactured". The B-52 is obsolete, yet still effective.
I don't think that is really the definition. In the context of aircraft, it's really meant to indicate that the aircraft is no longer suitable for its original role as its capabilities have been superseded by either new versions of the same aircraft or by new aircraft entirely. The Hawker Hurricane was manufactured throughout World War 2 but in many respects it was obsolete by 1942.
Hence my question. It seems to have a specialised meaning in that context. Aircraft were officially declared obsolete rather than just observed to no longer make the grade.
Eric Mc said:
When the older types became obsolete, most were not unceremoniously scrapped. If the airframes or engines still had some life in them, they were either transferred to less front line areas, such as Scotland - or transferred to training units.quickly and transferred to second line duties such as training or target towing.
although the very first german aircraft to be shot down over Britain in WW2 was a Heinkel trying to attack ships in the Firth of Forth and shot down by a Spitfire out of Turnhouse, which is now Edinburgh Airport.tvrolet said:
although the very first german aircraft to be shot down over Britain in WW2 was a Heinkel trying to attack ships in the Firth of Forth and shot down by a Spitfire out of Turnhouse, which is now Edinburgh Airport.In fact, one of the very first Luftwaffe kills of the war was in the north as well, although the aircraft that achieved the shootdown was the much maligned (and pretty much "obsolete") Blackburn Skua.
Eric Mc said:
V8 Fettler said:
Obsolete generally means "no longer manufactured". The B-52 is obsolete, yet still effective.
I don't think that is really the definition. In the context of aircraft, it's really meant to indicate that the aircraft is no longer suitable for its original role as its capabilities have been superseded by either new versions of the same aircraft or by new aircraft entirely. The Hawker Hurricane was manufactured throughout World War 2 but in many respects it was obsolete by 1942.
V8 Fettler said:
The Fairey Swordfish has been described by many as obsolete in 1939, it was still sinking enemy vessels in 1944.
Very true - and outlasted its supposed replacement, the Albacore.In the 1950s and into the 1960s, the USAF had a system whereby aircraft that were deemed to be obsolete or obsolescent but still in service would have the letter "O" placed in front of their normal serial.
It was normally applied to aircraft that were still on charge after ten years. By the end of the 1960s, there were so many aircraft still in service that were over ten years old that the practice was discontinued.
I've often wondered about the differing uses of obsolete/obsolescent in various branches of the military.
Generally the same definitions come up when you Google it though...
http://grammarist.com/usage/obsolescent-obsolete/
So in terms of definition, the Centurion tank, for example, was "obsolete" as far as the rest of the army was concerned, yet for the Royal Engineers it was very much "current". Same with my LMG/Bren. Out of use in the Armoured Corps and Infantry, long since replaced by the GPMG, yet here we were carrying them into battle alongside the Infantry and Tanks nearly 50 years after they first left the factory. I suppose it's all relative really.
Generally the same definitions come up when you Google it though...
http://grammarist.com/usage/obsolescent-obsolete/
The Grammarist said:
Obsolescent vs. obsolete
Things that are obsolete are out of date or no longer in general use. Things that are obsolescent are fading from general use and soon to become obsolete. For example, the Windows XP operating system (released in 2001) is not obsolete because some people still use it, but it is obsolescent because it will presumably be falling out of use in the coming years.
Things that are obsolete are usually not so out of date that they’ve been forgotten, however. When obsolete things are forgotten, they become archaic.
Because things that are obsolescent are becoming obsolete, phrases such as becoming obsolescent are redundant.
All I know is that I used a lot of kit that was "obsolescent" when I served. A 1944 .303" Bren MkII converted to a 7.62mm L4A1 LMG and still in use in 1991. A 1960s Fv 432 Mk2/1 still in front line service in 1991, and a lot of the fleet recently given a life-extending upgrade too. A late 1940s Centurion, in front line RAC use during the Suez crisis, later converted to a 165mm gun as an AVRE, and. you guessed it, still in service in 1991. We weren't nicknamed "The Antiques Roadshow" by the rest of the battlegroup without good reason!Things that are obsolete are out of date or no longer in general use. Things that are obsolescent are fading from general use and soon to become obsolete. For example, the Windows XP operating system (released in 2001) is not obsolete because some people still use it, but it is obsolescent because it will presumably be falling out of use in the coming years.
Things that are obsolete are usually not so out of date that they’ve been forgotten, however. When obsolete things are forgotten, they become archaic.
Because things that are obsolescent are becoming obsolete, phrases such as becoming obsolescent are redundant.
So in terms of definition, the Centurion tank, for example, was "obsolete" as far as the rest of the army was concerned, yet for the Royal Engineers it was very much "current". Same with my LMG/Bren. Out of use in the Armoured Corps and Infantry, long since replaced by the GPMG, yet here we were carrying them into battle alongside the Infantry and Tanks nearly 50 years after they first left the factory. I suppose it's all relative really.
yellowjack said:
All I know is that I used a lot of kit that was "obsolescent" when I served. A 1944 .303" Bren MkII converted to a 7.62mm L4A1 LMG and still in use in 1991. A 1960s Fv 432 Mk2/1 still in front line service in 1991, and a lot of the fleet recently given a life-extending upgrade too. A late 1940s Centurion, in front line RAC use during the Suez crisis, later converted to a 165mm gun as an AVRE, and. you guessed it, still in service in 1991. We weren't nicknamed "The Antiques Roadshow" by the rest of the battlegroup without good reason!
So in terms of definition, the Centurion tank, for example, was "obsolete" as far as the rest of the army was concerned, yet for the Royal Engineers it was very much "current". Same with my LMG/Bren. Out of use in the Armoured Corps and Infantry, long since replaced by the GPMG, yet here we were carrying them into battle alongside the Infantry and Tanks nearly 50 years after they first left the factory. I suppose it's all relative really.
The Royal Navy Mark 8 torpedo was in service from the mid-1920s to the mid-1980s, the US are still using the Browning "50 cal" general purpose machine gun, first used in the 1930s.So in terms of definition, the Centurion tank, for example, was "obsolete" as far as the rest of the army was concerned, yet for the Royal Engineers it was very much "current". Same with my LMG/Bren. Out of use in the Armoured Corps and Infantry, long since replaced by the GPMG, yet here we were carrying them into battle alongside the Infantry and Tanks nearly 50 years after they first left the factory. I suppose it's all relative really.
Eric Mc said:
Very true - and outlasted its supposed replacement, the Albacore.
In the 1950s and into the 1960s, the USAF had a system whereby aircraft that were deemed to be obsolete or obsolescent but still in service would have the letter "O" placed in front of their normal serial.
It was normally applied to aircraft that were still on charge after ten years. By the end of the 1960s, there were so many aircraft still in service that were over ten years old that the practice was discontinued.
And in the days of the 'O' designation such aircraft were often cascaded down to the Military Air Transport Service, USAF Reserve, the Air National Guards and so on. They could still be useful 'behind the lines', but the 'O' designation was a handy way of keeping track of aircraft which should be kept well away from an active theatre! In the 1950s and into the 1960s, the USAF had a system whereby aircraft that were deemed to be obsolete or obsolescent but still in service would have the letter "O" placed in front of their normal serial.
It was normally applied to aircraft that were still on charge after ten years. By the end of the 1960s, there were so many aircraft still in service that were over ten years old that the practice was discontinued.
And aircraft could be declared obsolete in one theatre, and not the other. The RAF semi-officially declared the P-40 Tomahawk 'obsolete' as far as Western Europe was concerned as soon as the first arrived off the boat. The few taken into Fighter Command service were quickly dispersed to Commonwealth squadrons in the Midlands and the north of England for training, familiarisation and 'working up' exercises. But in North Africa and China-Burma-India the P-40 was an excellent platform given the different conditions and stayed in service until the end of the war in the ground-attack role.
Eric Mc said:
Very true. Aircraft like the P-40 worked very well in certain environments but not so well in others.
The same could be said for the Messerschmitt 110 and the Stuka.
Those do show that declaring a type 'obsolete' doesn't mean you have to chuck them all in the scrapyard. The Ju87 was very effective in 1939/early 1940, got hammered when operating against air superiority in the Battle of Britain, then did good work again in North Africa, the Balkans and the opening phases of the Eastern Front. But wherever (and whenever) the enemy gained effective fighter coverage the Stuka was a sitting duck. The same could be said for the Messerschmitt 110 and the Stuka.
The Bf110 was an innovative concept which proved a non-starter, although had it been used against the uncoordinated biplane interceptors it was conceived for it would probably have worked. But it turned into a deadly night-fighter and (before the USAAF got its tactics locked down, at least) a fearsome bomber interceptor (slightly ironic considering its primary conception as a bomber defender).
The dear old P-40 was hamstrung by the Allison V12's single-speed supercharger so it became a real sluggard above about 12,000 feet. That hobbled it in Europe, where operations around and above 20,000 feet were the norm. But it had far more development potential than the Hurricane and had excellent high-speed agility, plus its party piece of reaching 400mph in a dive. It could out-turn even the Japanese single-seat fighters above 200mph and at low altitude and once the Flying Tigers had developed their tactics of sitting high, diving down on the enemy and then trading speed to climb back up for another pass, and *never* trying to win a constant-altitude turning fight against a 'Nate', the P-40 was very useful. It was also very strong, easy to maintain and tolerated extreme climates. So everywhere except Europe, where combat took place at lower altitudes and/or not against state-of-the-art fighters, the 'obsolete' Tomahawk (itself a straightforward V12 conversion of the definitely obsolete 1935-vintage P-36) was an excellent machine.
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