Attack of the Zeppelins - Channel 4OD

[Porkbrain]

Don't think this has been posted yet.

Well worth watching for some really interesting stuff and historical footage.

Only marred by some crap CGI which seems to be aimed at 12 year old kids.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/attack-of-the-z...

It is a free sign up to 4OD if you haven't tried it and you don't get any dross emails from them.

[Simpo Two]

The slo-mo footage of the spinning incendiary bullet was amazing - and all worked out when they didn't have the technology to see it.

[Hooli]

It was damn interesting wasn't it? Agree the CGI was a bit poo.

[Kitchski]

Enjoyed that.

[Simpo Two]

I hadn't realised the anti-Zeppelin fighters used an upwards-firing gun - so just as we invented blitzkrieg, we also invented Schrage Musik...

It makes sense as the best defence of the Zeppelins was to climb beyond the fighter's ceiling - so when you're struggling for height in thin air the last thing you can do is point the nose upwards accurately and fire.

This is good reading: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Zeppelin-fighters-Arch...

[Hooli]

Simpo Two said:

I hadn't realised the anti-Zeppelin fighters used an upwards-firing gun - so just as we invented blitzkrieg, we also invented Schrage Musik...

It makes sense as the best defence of the Zeppelins was to climb beyond the fighter's ceiling - so when you're struggling for height in thin air the last thing you can do is point the nose upwards accurately and fire.

This is good reading: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Zeppelin-fighters-Arch...

I think originally the gun 'just happened' to be up there to clear the prop & then they added extra points it could be locked to on the mounting so it could fire upwards. Obviously it'd have needed a rail to pull it down to reload, you wouldn't want to drop it after all

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

The upwards firing gun was used on the BE2c because it had no interrupter gear.

Later night fighters such as the 2F1 Camel had twin Lewis mounts that would allow both 'normal' as well as upwards fire.

[Mr_B]

Good show, but I have some questions.

1,The crews in the Zeppelins had oxygen bottles, but am I correct in saying the British fighters had none ? I was surprised how quickly the simulated altitude problems affected the the presenter. For some reason I thought it was a slower process, 30 mins to an hour would have been my guess before anything serious happened. How did our chaps counter that without oxygen ?

2, What was the ceiling for a Zeppelin and the average fighter of the day ?

3, What was the range of the anti-aircraft guns of the day ?

4, For some reason, I was expecting a list of really whacky inventions to try and bring down a Zeppelin, Were there any ?
Thanks

[Eric Mc]

Up until the end of 1916, most aircraft struggled to carry any useful payloads due to the low power of their engines. By the time the weight of the pilot, machine guns, fuel etc were added, it was just not possible to add in anything extra such as radios, oxygen gear etc.

From 1917 on wards more capable aircraft began to appear.

[Hooli]

Mr_B said:

2, What was the ceiling for a Zeppelin and the average fighter of the day ?

I think by the end of the war fighters could get near 20,000ft. Something in my head is saying 17 or 19,000ft for a Camel, I'd look it up but I bet someone on here knows.

[Simpo Two]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

The upwards firing gun was used on the BE2c because it had no interrupter gear.

Guns were mounted on the top wing to avoid the propeller, yes, but you wouldn't normally point a gun upwards at a steep angle just to clear it - it would make normal use impossible.

Leefe-Robinson was not the first pilot to down a Zeppelin; his kill was over London on 3 Sep 1916 so in full view of the British public, but Reggie Warneford downed L.37 over Ghent on 7 Jun 1915 in a Morane Parsol - he got above it and used 20lb incendiary bombs.

[Eric Mc]

Even more advanced fighters, like the SE5A, had a Lewis gun mounted on the top wing - in addition to the gun firing through the propeller.

[Simpo Two]

I do wonder why we stuck to drum-fed guns for so long when belt-fed would have been much easier.

[Eric Mc]

Weight?
Space?

I think a belt fed gun on the top wing would have been impractical. And with guns sitting on the coaming just in front of the pilot I can't see how a belt fed gun could have been accommodated in the small spaces of a WW1 fighter aircraft.

In WW2 some types of gun/cannon ammunition was cartridge rather than belt - so the concept didn't completely die out.

[stu67]

Useless information, I used to live in Robinson Ave named after Leefe Robinson, there is a small memorial at the top of Plough Hill in Cuffley, Herts commemorating the downing of the Zeppelin at the spot. This was paid for by subscription through the Telegraph newspaper during WW1. I think Leefe Robinson died in the Flu epedemic just after the war

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

Simpo Two said:

Guns were mounted on the top wing to avoid the propeller, yes, but you wouldn't normally point a gun upwards at a steep angle just to clear it - it would make normal use impossible.

The original BE2 over the Western Front mounted its guns on the fuselage firing horizontally outwards at angle to miss the prop. Try aiming that!

As I stated, later night fighters such as the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter, 2F1 Camel and Avro 504 had twin Lewis guns (single Lewis in the case of the 504) on Foster mounts on the top wing precisely so the pilot could fire upwards. Note that the standard F1 Camel day fighter had twin fixed Vickers guns in the nose (which gave the 'hump' resulting in the name Camel) firing through the airscrew via the use of Canstantinesco interrupter gear.

A Foster mount can be seen in Eric's picture of the SE5. The mount was a 'toothed' track originally designed to allow the pilot to reload the gun (by pulling it down the track prior to changing the ammunition drum). Albert Ball found that the mount allowed him to fire upwards so he developed the tactic of attacking from behind and below (in a strange forerunner of the WW2 German Shrage Musik). This tactic became particularly applicable to Home Defence night fighters who would inevitably be below the incoming raiders in the early part of any interception.

[Simpo Two]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

A Foster mount can be seen in Eric's picture of the SE5. The mount was a 'toothed' track originally designed to allow the pilot to reload the gun (by pulling it down the track prior to changing the ammunition drum). Albert Ball found that the mount allowed him to fire upwards so he developed the tactic of attacking from behind and below (in a strange forerunner of the WW2 German Shrage Musik)

I like Albert Ball. I knew of the curved mount to allow reloading - you can see the hero struggling with it in Aces High. But I'd have thought it would wobbly badly when fired at an angle (ie unfixed).OK for a large target like a Zeppelin perhaps but less good for a fighter. I suppose you just creep up close enough not to miss and hope nobody sees you and hope the target keeps straight and level. Which is a jolly good way to get shot down!

[FourWheelDrift]

Mr_B said:

Good show, but I have some questions.

1,The crews in the Zeppelins had oxygen bottles, but am I correct in saying the British fighters had none ? I was surprised how quickly the simulated altitude problems affected the the presenter. For some reason I thought it was a slower process, 30 mins to an hour would have been my guess before anything serious happened. How did our chaps counter that without oxygen ?

The presenter was on oxygen all the way up to a simulated 21,000 ft then he took the mask off and was hit by an immediate change in oxygen levels and he probably got light headed quickly going from one extreme to another in an enclosed space. The pilots gradually experienced a change as they went higher, perhaps aclimatising better?

[Eric Mc]

Simpo Two said:

I like Albert Ball. I knew of the curved mount to allow reloading - you can see the hero struggling with it in Aces High. But I'd have thought it would wobbly badly when fired at an angle (ie unfixed).OK for a large target like a Zeppelin perhaps but less good for a fighter. I suppose you just creep up close enough not to miss and hope nobody sees you and hope the target keeps straight and level. Which is a jolly good way to get shot down!

He was.

[Neonblau]

The most inetersting bit for me was the use of cow guts for gas bags. These things were really big and even today the sausage skin process seems to have a fair amount of manual labour. I'd also never heard of the ban on sausage making in Germany!

Co-incidentally I'm just back from holiday in Friedrichsahef, home of the original Zeppelins (it's teh Count's 175th birthday this year) and the current Zeppelin NT. There's a brillian Zeppelin museum with all sorts of stuff, including a Maybach Zeppelin and a reconstriuction of the interior of the Hindenburg. Well worth a trip and the local Messe holds an annual "Fazination Modellbau" - you can find it on YouTube.