What will the Government buy if the F35 is cancelled?
Discussion
As the thread title says... What would the British Government buy if, for whatever reason, the USA decided to scrap the F35 project? (Assume for the sake of argument that we keep both new carriers and we want something to fly off them)
Cap in hand to the French for Rafales?
Loadsa dosh to BAE for some Navalised Typhoons?
Anything Russian we could look at?
Or, is it the case that with the carriers design now locked into STOVL mode we would have to build some more Harriers?
Could we develope the Harrier further in a short time frame? Supersonic Harrier?
Cap in hand to the French for Rafales?
Loadsa dosh to BAE for some Navalised Typhoons?
Anything Russian we could look at?
Or, is it the case that with the carriers design now locked into STOVL mode we would have to build some more Harriers?
Could we develope the Harrier further in a short time frame? Supersonic Harrier?
I really can't see the F-35 being cancelled to be honest. There are too many nations involeved that have invested greatly in the aircraft. The aircraft that the F-35 is due to replace wil need replacing with something, particularly the USMC, which need some kind of STOVL to replace their own Harrier's with.
I think the political implications of cancelling the project will be it's saving grace at the end of the day.
The aircraft that the F-35 (in all it's forms) wil replace are at the very least.
All forms of F-18
F-16 (US and allies)
Harrier (UK and USMC, Italian Navy, Spanish Navy to possibly)
F-4 for some of the older airframes, like Turkey's fleet etc.
And I'm sure there are more beside which I can't think of.
That's a lot of aircraft that need to be replaced by this one project, it is the biggest defence contract in the world at present.
If however the US do can it, I would expect our government will try and recover our costs that we'd lose on this contract and the costs of Carrier conversion to CATOBAR from the US somehow, maybe they'd give us a fleet of F-18's as compensation, which wouldn't be a terrible result.
I think the political implications of cancelling the project will be it's saving grace at the end of the day.
The aircraft that the F-35 (in all it's forms) wil replace are at the very least.
All forms of F-18
F-16 (US and allies)
Harrier (UK and USMC, Italian Navy, Spanish Navy to possibly)
F-4 for some of the older airframes, like Turkey's fleet etc.
And I'm sure there are more beside which I can't think of.
That's a lot of aircraft that need to be replaced by this one project, it is the biggest defence contract in the world at present.
If however the US do can it, I would expect our government will try and recover our costs that we'd lose on this contract and the costs of Carrier conversion to CATOBAR from the US somehow, maybe they'd give us a fleet of F-18's as compensation, which wouldn't be a terrible result.
Go back to Buccaneers - get Blackburn Aircraft out of mothballs and just do it.
Of course there is a train of thought that says we don't need all this expensive high maintenance wizardry for the next conflict. Some of us would be happier if we were to demonstrate we could protect this little island from massive illegal immigration for starters, and then look at 'f
k-off' big defence spending later...
/little englander
Of course there is a train of thought that says we don't need all this expensive high maintenance wizardry for the next conflict. Some of us would be happier if we were to demonstrate we could protect this little island from massive illegal immigration for starters, and then look at 'f
k-off' big defence spending later.../little englander
Iranian response to US naval power, instead of going toe to toe with warships, is lots and lots of small torpedo style boats in a "you'll get some but you wont get them all" strategy.
In a similar vein, and coupled with budget reduction targets, we should buy lots and lots of microlights.
In a similar vein, and coupled with budget reduction targets, we should buy lots and lots of microlights.
It would have to be Super Hornet. In all honesty that was always the better option anyway:
Does the UK need stealth in their carrier-borne strike aircraft? It's only a benefit in a first-day scenario, where you want to get in, do a bit of undetected interdiction, and bugger off again. What war will we, as the UK, go into where a) we'd need stealth to avoid an advanced radar-lain defence system and b) won't have our mates' B-2s and F-22s at our disposal to do just that. That's ignoring the fact that at some point we'll have something like Taranis to do that kind of work for ourselves.
However a kind of war we could feasibly end up in alone is one where we'd need to protect our carrier group from attack by - say- an Argentine with an Exocet. But luckily we've gone for a conventional carrier so that we can get our hands on a proper AEW platform like the E-2...oh wait. The SKASaC doesn't count, and is on its way out.
In terms of capabilities, F-35 is of the same generation as Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet and Gripen NG. The only thing it offers in addition is stealth(ish). Is it worth sacrificing greater aircraft numbers, a flexible platform for operating anything the US Navy has to offer, and a dedicated fixed-wing AEW platform for that first-day strike capability?
Not a chance.
Does the UK need stealth in their carrier-borne strike aircraft? It's only a benefit in a first-day scenario, where you want to get in, do a bit of undetected interdiction, and bugger off again. What war will we, as the UK, go into where a) we'd need stealth to avoid an advanced radar-lain defence system and b) won't have our mates' B-2s and F-22s at our disposal to do just that. That's ignoring the fact that at some point we'll have something like Taranis to do that kind of work for ourselves.
However a kind of war we could feasibly end up in alone is one where we'd need to protect our carrier group from attack by - say- an Argentine with an Exocet. But luckily we've gone for a conventional carrier so that we can get our hands on a proper AEW platform like the E-2...oh wait. The SKASaC doesn't count, and is on its way out.
In terms of capabilities, F-35 is of the same generation as Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet and Gripen NG. The only thing it offers in addition is stealth(ish). Is it worth sacrificing greater aircraft numbers, a flexible platform for operating anything the US Navy has to offer, and a dedicated fixed-wing AEW platform for that first-day strike capability?
Not a chance.
doogz said:
And the little vertical take off and landing trick.
Except it's not (it can do STOVL - short take-off, vertical landing). And that in itself is something that only exists because the US Marines get very protective about having VTOL/STOVL and have a large sway within the Pentagon. The F-35 isn't a rugged, fairly low-tech thing like the Harrier. You can't hide it away under some trees in Germany for a few days and operate it out of fields.doogz said:
It won't do that with any useful payload though. And it's not a programme requirement. It 'can' do it (simple physics says so) but it's very unlikely that it will be used for any kind of military purpose (other than airshows!).doogz said:
And it's a trick that the other aircraft you mentioned don't have up their sleeve, which was the point I was making.
That is true. But I think if the government starts having to make excuses for buying an expensive piece of kit based upon its ability to land in Trafalgar Square, we should probably kick off!So, hypothetically speaking, how good would a re-imagined Harrier for te 21st century actually be?
Assume a revised airframe, with better materials (composites) better aero performance (less drag, more lift) more powerful engine, heavier weapons load etc. Am i right in saying that actually all that stuff matters less than having a busting good avionics package? And how much would it cost to make some more?
Assume a revised airframe, with better materials (composites) better aero performance (less drag, more lift) more powerful engine, heavier weapons load etc. Am i right in saying that actually all that stuff matters less than having a busting good avionics package? And how much would it cost to make some more?
Z06George said:
I take it they fixed the arrestor hook problem on the "C" then?
Yes, read it in one of those fighter monthly/what are airforces doing round the world monthly/spotter monthly magazines. Not a copy that I bought I hasten to add.
ETA: This one I think...
Edited by civicduty on Friday 15th March 23:30
Max_Torque said:
So, hypothetically speaking, how good would a re-imagined Harrier for te 21st century actually be?
Assume a revised airframe, with better materials (composites) better aero performance (less drag, more lift) more powerful engine, heavier weapons load etc. Am i right in saying that actually all that stuff matters less than having a busting good avionics package? And how much would it cost to make some more?
Basically build a Super Harrier in the same way the Pentagon bought Super Hornets? Be gone from here with your straight forward, joined up, coherent thinking!!Assume a revised airframe, with better materials (composites) better aero performance (less drag, more lift) more powerful engine, heavier weapons load etc. Am i right in saying that actually all that stuff matters less than having a busting good avionics package? And how much would it cost to make some more?
If Whitehall were to tell BAe that we need X number of all new Harriers of Y weight/drag/payload/range etc and we will pay Z million pounds, any cost over runs/weight gain etc are your problem and we want them by Christmas then I think we would get a very, very good aircraft.
BUT
BAe will do the sums for a quantity of aircraft and Whitehall will order half which will then screw up the R&D budget.
The RAF will move the goalposts regarding what they need from the aircraft twice a week apart from any week with a Bank Holiday when it will happen three times. This will delay the delivery to the point that the carriers will have long since rusted away.
The whole project will be run by committee without clear leadership so it will start out as a race horse and will be delivered as a camel and not alas the Sopworth varity.
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