Starting Sailing
Discussion
handpaper said:
Thursday, 1300, Bristol Channel.
Out with a very experienced fellow Club member, who kindly allowed me to discover that even in a 30-knot wind there is almost nothing that can be done to seriously discomfit a Westerly Centaur.
As I discovered later, bilge-keelers should be sailed as flat as possible for best speed, and small boats don't like big(ish) waves.
But even with insufficiently reefed mainsail and jib, close-hauled on the port tack, with the lee gunwale underwater, and four foot seas on the beam, she felt solid and unflustered.
A great lesson and a reminder that for a long time that boat will be far better than me.
Here she is a couple of weeks ago, on a calmer day:
Nice where did you launch from ? going through the same as you just bought a westerly merlin bilge keel. Currently in Tenby but bringing her back to Cardiff. Be a learning curve. Think we're going to do it over 2 days so not to rush and punch tides. Out with a very experienced fellow Club member, who kindly allowed me to discover that even in a 30-knot wind there is almost nothing that can be done to seriously discomfit a Westerly Centaur.
As I discovered later, bilge-keelers should be sailed as flat as possible for best speed, and small boats don't like big(ish) waves.
But even with insufficiently reefed mainsail and jib, close-hauled on the port tack, with the lee gunwale underwater, and four foot seas on the beam, she felt solid and unflustered.
A great lesson and a reminder that for a long time that boat will be far better than me.
Here she is a couple of weeks ago, on a calmer day:
Edited by handpaper on Sunday 2nd June 19:16
The boat is based in Barry, so you'll be coming past me. Or, if you want to pay 1/3 of what you would at Cardiff, stop at Barry 
I'm sure your bilge-keeler would be as comfy in the mud as mine!
Not fighting Bristol Channel tides is a very good idea, they are strong. Looking at 2-3 knots at the moment any time outside slack water; it certainly makes navigation interesting...
I'm sure your bilge-keeler would be as comfy in the mud as mine!Not fighting Bristol Channel tides is a very good idea, they are strong. Looking at 2-3 knots at the moment any time outside slack water; it certainly makes navigation interesting...
handpaper said:
The boat is based in Barry, so you'll be coming past me. Or, if you want to pay 1/3 of what you would at Cardiff, stop at Barry I'm sure your bilge-keeler would be as comfy in the mud as mine!
Not fighting Bristol Channel tides is a very good idea, they are strong. Looking at 2-3 knots at the moment any time outside slack water; it certainly makes navigation interesting...
We were tempted on the river near me but being tidal i didnt want so many restrictions. I'm sure your bilge-keeler would be as comfy in the mud as mine!Not fighting Bristol Channel tides is a very good idea, they are strong. Looking at 2-3 knots at the moment any time outside slack water; it certainly makes navigation interesting...
.
When we get some more experience should meet up and head to lundy for a pint
I was tempted by Newport Usk Yacht club, which is a quarter the price of Barry (!), but access is very tide-limited, and the water is very complicated, with shoals well out into the main channel. By contrast, Barry is always accessible; even if you screw up completely and come in at low tide, there's a deep channel and a buoy you can swing to until there's enough water to make your mooring.
Lundy is on the list to reach at some point in the next couple of months, with a stretch goal of Scilly or Waterford by year end.
Lundy is on the list to reach at some point in the next couple of months, with a stretch goal of Scilly or Waterford by year end.
handpaper said:
I was tempted by Newport Usk Yacht club, which is a quarter the price of Barry (!), but access is very tide-limited, and the water is very complicated, with shoals well out into the main channel. By contrast, Barry is always accessible; even if you screw up completely and come in at low tide, there's a deep channel and a buoy you can swing to until there's enough water to make your mooring.
Lundy is on the list to reach at some point in the next couple of months, with a stretch goal of Scilly or Waterford by year end.
I'll look at Barry if Cardiff gets to expensive. It's not so bad between 2 of us £600ishi think. Penarth marina yc is mental cbyc between the 2. Lundy is on the list to reach at some point in the next couple of months, with a stretch goal of Scilly or Waterford by year end.
Scilly is next year for us and I can't wait
Up to today I've been out on the water, on my boat, six times, for a total of ~20 hours sea time, always in the company of a very experienced fellow club member.
Today I went out with just my son (24), whose only prior experience was one of those trips.
And almost nothing went wrong. We sailed out from Barry to near Flat Holm, in winds so light that we eventually furled the jib and hoisted the gennaker instead. We managed, after a few false starts, to get on the opposite tack when the time came, and I was delighted to discover that it was possible to come to within 80 degrees of the wind with this sail.
And then the wind died completely and we motored back to Barry. Which also reassured, as the engine is the original Volvo unit, installed in 1976...
Today I went out with just my son (24), whose only prior experience was one of those trips.
And almost nothing went wrong. We sailed out from Barry to near Flat Holm, in winds so light that we eventually furled the jib and hoisted the gennaker instead. We managed, after a few false starts, to get on the opposite tack when the time came, and I was delighted to discover that it was possible to come to within 80 degrees of the wind with this sail.
And then the wind died completely and we motored back to Barry. Which also reassured, as the engine is the original Volvo unit, installed in 1976...
Supposed to be like this for a few weeks now, sunny but lack of wind. We pick our boat up week after next and looking like we'll be on engine most of the way. A well serviced marine engine goes on for years. Ours just had 1500 spent on it so fingers crossed it's reliable.
We have a brand new cruising chute but save that for later, but scary if goes wrong.
We have a brand new cruising chute but save that for later, but scary if goes wrong.
Edited by bazza white on Wednesday 19th June 15:44
It's not remotely dangerous; worst case the boat will just heel excessively, the rudder will lose authority and it will round up to windward, the sails will flap and the boat comes upright again. Broaching with a spinnaker is more exciting but not really dangerous either, although it's a good idea if everyone knows to hang on.
hidetheelephants said:
It's not remotely dangerous; worst case the boat will just heel excessively, the rudder will lose authority and it will round up to windward, the sails will flap and the boat comes upright again. Broaching with a spinnaker is more exciting but not really dangerous either, although it's a good idea if everyone knows to hang on.
Not dangerous but can do without any induced chaos on our first trip but looking forward to getting It up eventually. Let he seeing a massive colourful shoot out. I'll give you a wave as we pass Barry. hidetheelephants said:
It's not remotely dangerous; worst case the boat will just heel excessively, the rudder will lose authority and it will round up to windward, the sails will flap and the boat comes upright again. Broaching with a spinnaker is more exciting but not really dangerous either, although it's a good idea if everyone knows to hang on.
Had this happen on the next-to-last trip.Heading nearly dead downwind with the gennaker drawing nicely, the wind started increasing giving the boat a tendency to turn into it.
Eventually a big gust came and the rudder could no longer prevent it, boat pivots across the wind and the gennaker and unreefed main push the boat over to about 60 degrees before the continuing turn puts the wind off the bow and the sails all depower and flap.
Exciting when it happened, but no real danger.
Next experiment will be to reef the main in those conditions (~12 knot wind), see if the tendency to turn into the wind can be reduced.
I do know people who have sunk small boats broaching.
Generally it's not dangerous, but there's a time and a place for being out of control, not when there's anything to hit for a start. or if crew members could be hurt or are making your tea or using the head etc.
It can also be hard on the rig.
Displacement cruisers don't go a huge amount faster then their 'hull speed' with a kite up unless you are really pushing it and start surfing.
So I'd suggest keeping the kite for making progress in light airs until you've built some, experience.
Pushing the edges with a spinnaker is definitely an area where some dinghy sailing is a good way to learn.
Also some yacht racing.
Early intervention with rudder, kite sheet and mainsheet, is key.
I don't race my cruiser, I see the kite on that as a means to sail in light air when others are putting the engine on.
If there's a reasonable breeze, we will make OK progress with the white sails.
Generally it's not dangerous, but there's a time and a place for being out of control, not when there's anything to hit for a start. or if crew members could be hurt or are making your tea or using the head etc.
It can also be hard on the rig.
Displacement cruisers don't go a huge amount faster then their 'hull speed' with a kite up unless you are really pushing it and start surfing.
So I'd suggest keeping the kite for making progress in light airs until you've built some, experience.
Pushing the edges with a spinnaker is definitely an area where some dinghy sailing is a good way to learn.
Also some yacht racing.
Early intervention with rudder, kite sheet and mainsheet, is key.
I don't race my cruiser, I see the kite on that as a means to sail in light air when others are putting the engine on.
If there's a reasonable breeze, we will make OK progress with the white sails.
Out in the Bristol Channel for another learning experience today...
Out from Barry in a 20-knot Westerly, lovely run DDW to the North of Flat Holm with main out to port and jib goose-winged and poled starboard. We reefed the main before leaving harbour as it's a pain to do in any wind with the Centaur's round-boom reefing, but still managed ~7 knots over ground. We'd been running with the tide, but high water came with us about 1 nm shy of our target.
A bit of a breather while going around in the lee of Flat Holm, then tacking into the tidal race between it and Steep Holm. Except we couldn't. The unreefed jib wouldn't let the boat point high enough, the wind pressure was too much to reef it, and the seas too high and choppy (~6ft, 20ft between) to heave to and sort it. So back behind Flat Holm we went.
Furler unjammed and jib reefed, we headed West again. But now the port jib sheet, which had flown free when we failed to reef the jib, had come out of its block. And flogged the melted end into a dandelion, so it wouldn't go back through. Can't sort it in this wind and sea, back behind Flat Holm we go again...
Ready at last, we ventured once more into the wet and choppy mess South of Flat Holm, this time with enough control to sail through into calmer waters. After careful checking of our actual course and in particular our leeway, we elected to run NW with a lovely view of the island about 300 yards to our East. The tide was with us again now, which probably helped.
The tide may have been with us, but the wind was against us, and rising. In the linked video below, the speed over ground was ~6 knots, and the apparent wind 25-28 knots, with seas of 3-5 ft.
Force 5-6, but no drama. I even had time to take a quick video...
Video link
But the wind kept rising, and the tide flowed faster, and the learning curve got a bit steep.
Lesson 1 - If your sails are not properly balanced, big waves will helpfully tack you from NW to SW, and there is no amount of tiller that can stop it happening. Which is a bit of a bugger when you want to go to Barry and not Minehead.
Lesson 2 - You cannot pick up enough speed to get back onto your desired tack unless you sheet the jib over to draw on the 'wrong' one.
Lesson 1 took three instances of this to learn, over about half an hour. Easing the main sheet and running a bit further off the wind did the job in the end.
Lesson 2 took about 5 minutes to learn. In 32 knots of indicated wind and seas over 6ft, it was a very long 5 minutes.
And so we sailed onward, a lot wetter and a little wiser. Which was useful when conditions got a little worse.
The highest wind speed I saw was 35 knots apparent, and between the eased jib and main, and the whole 'bobbing up and down' thing, not much of that was down to our progress. The plotter showed ~4 knots over the ground, but a good chunk of that would have been tidal flow. Seas were now up to 10 feet, coming in on the port bow, and we took to pointing the bows into the bigger ones as they reached us (which we later learned was a waste of time; even heeled over the boat just bobbed over the top). Force 7, apparently, and though not terribly frightening, it wasn't fun for long either.
In the interest of spending slightly less time in this situation, we started the engine. I don't know that it improved our speed much, but it did give far more rudder authority, and its steady beat was a reassurance of its own.
Sailing/motoring back into Barry harbour, it felt like something had been achieved.
Which feeling was rapidly dispelled by the effort and faffage needed to furl and lower the sails; even in that sheltered water there was over 10 knots of wind still.
The boat is, and I feel will always be, much, much better than me.
Out from Barry in a 20-knot Westerly, lovely run DDW to the North of Flat Holm with main out to port and jib goose-winged and poled starboard. We reefed the main before leaving harbour as it's a pain to do in any wind with the Centaur's round-boom reefing, but still managed ~7 knots over ground. We'd been running with the tide, but high water came with us about 1 nm shy of our target.
A bit of a breather while going around in the lee of Flat Holm, then tacking into the tidal race between it and Steep Holm. Except we couldn't. The unreefed jib wouldn't let the boat point high enough, the wind pressure was too much to reef it, and the seas too high and choppy (~6ft, 20ft between) to heave to and sort it. So back behind Flat Holm we went.
Furler unjammed and jib reefed, we headed West again. But now the port jib sheet, which had flown free when we failed to reef the jib, had come out of its block. And flogged the melted end into a dandelion, so it wouldn't go back through. Can't sort it in this wind and sea, back behind Flat Holm we go again...
Ready at last, we ventured once more into the wet and choppy mess South of Flat Holm, this time with enough control to sail through into calmer waters. After careful checking of our actual course and in particular our leeway, we elected to run NW with a lovely view of the island about 300 yards to our East. The tide was with us again now, which probably helped.
The tide may have been with us, but the wind was against us, and rising. In the linked video below, the speed over ground was ~6 knots, and the apparent wind 25-28 knots, with seas of 3-5 ft.
Force 5-6, but no drama. I even had time to take a quick video...
Video link
But the wind kept rising, and the tide flowed faster, and the learning curve got a bit steep.
Lesson 1 - If your sails are not properly balanced, big waves will helpfully tack you from NW to SW, and there is no amount of tiller that can stop it happening. Which is a bit of a bugger when you want to go to Barry and not Minehead.
Lesson 2 - You cannot pick up enough speed to get back onto your desired tack unless you sheet the jib over to draw on the 'wrong' one.
Lesson 1 took three instances of this to learn, over about half an hour. Easing the main sheet and running a bit further off the wind did the job in the end.
Lesson 2 took about 5 minutes to learn. In 32 knots of indicated wind and seas over 6ft, it was a very long 5 minutes.
And so we sailed onward, a lot wetter and a little wiser. Which was useful when conditions got a little worse.
The highest wind speed I saw was 35 knots apparent, and between the eased jib and main, and the whole 'bobbing up and down' thing, not much of that was down to our progress. The plotter showed ~4 knots over the ground, but a good chunk of that would have been tidal flow. Seas were now up to 10 feet, coming in on the port bow, and we took to pointing the bows into the bigger ones as they reached us (which we later learned was a waste of time; even heeled over the boat just bobbed over the top). Force 7, apparently, and though not terribly frightening, it wasn't fun for long either.
In the interest of spending slightly less time in this situation, we started the engine. I don't know that it improved our speed much, but it did give far more rudder authority, and its steady beat was a reassurance of its own.
Sailing/motoring back into Barry harbour, it felt like something had been achieved.
Which feeling was rapidly dispelled by the effort and faffage needed to furl and lower the sails; even in that sheltered water there was over 10 knots of wind still.
The boat is, and I feel will always be, much, much better than me.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff