Discussion
Is there a published definative list of which watchmakers use whose movements?
I know there are thousands of permutations, but afaik, Rolex for example now make all their own, Zenith and Patek for example also. Who else, is what i'm wondering and linked to another thread is it important?
I know there are thousands of permutations, but afaik, Rolex for example now make all their own, Zenith and Patek for example also. Who else, is what i'm wondering and linked to another thread is it important?
I'm not sure if there's anything on the net but you can do worse than get a copy of this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wristwatch-Annual-Catalog-...
Easiest route is to ask a watchsmith who repairs loads of watches. He will know what's in which watch.
The alternative is to trawl through watch enthusiast forums and dredge the info from there.
Bottom line is that most of the 2nd tier brands use ETA movements, some modified, some not - and they sure as hell don't want you to know that because you'd realise you're paying £2000 for a watch that actually cost £100 to build. As a result each watch 'brand' will describe their watch as having a particular 'caliber' - which isn't actually a movement in itself but a moniker for their version of a movement. So Breitling for example will list their watches with their 'caliber' numbers, but we all know that Breitling use only inexpensive ETA movements in their watches. Panerai do too - they have realised there's only so long that you can get away with taking the piss and have designed their own movement for one of their watches - good for them (though I think that their in-house movement watch is rather expensive IIRC).
Ask yourself if you care, that's all that matters really. If you see watches as engineering, then the movement is an essential part of the credibility of the watch. If you just see watches as jewellery, then go for the precious metals or the 'jewellery' watches - or buy a replica. There is simply no point in paying £2000 for a steel watch with an ETA movement when the Chinese knock out exact replicas using the same movement and the same quality steel for £150. However if you are into the jewellery aspect, then a genuine solid gold / platinum watch won't be available from anyone but the original manufacturer. And if that's your bag, it doesn't really matter whether the movement is from ETA or a £1 quartz movement - there's £2000 or more of platinum on your wrist.
The top tier manufactures make their own movements from scratch (as do Seiko, interestingly enough - who make *everything* in-house and thus I have a lot of respect for) and thus have complete freedom to design a dial with oddball complications in any place they desire. This is why the top watches are hard to fake... there aren't generic movements on the market that do what the genuine watches do.
To answer your question - the watch 'brands' I *know* to make their own movements (mostly, there will be a few with bought-in movements, usually at the bottom of the range) are the top tier (Patek, Vacheron, Blancpain, Breguet, Lange), Rolex make their own movements now across the entire range, JLC make great movements, Zenith make the El Primero movement (it's a great movement) and are capitalising on that - not sure about the rest of their watches.
There are a bunch of other 2nd tier brands that sell very expensive watches with plenty of complications - most start with an ETA / Unitas movement and modify it. You have to decide at what point the manufacture has put enough of its own creativity and R&D into the base movement to justify it being a 'new' movement or mostly 'in-house'. Some do make so many changes that they may as well have built a new movement from scratch - Franck Muller make everything from a base watch with an ETA 2892, unmodified, movement (this watch is available as a perfect replica at a fraction of the price) to the most complicated watches ever (the Aeternitas Mega range are worth looking at)... these are based on run-of-the-mill ETA movements but there's not much left of the ETA in there - incredible engineering.
To be honest, you should just buy for your own reasons - if the quality and originality of movement are not an issue to you, you just want the looks or the status of the brand, then in some respects the internals are irrelevant (hell, even Patek make a quartz watch...). But now that perfect replicas of such watches are available, it seems silly to pay the thousands for a watch which really only cost £100 to produce.
The alternative is to trawl through watch enthusiast forums and dredge the info from there.
Bottom line is that most of the 2nd tier brands use ETA movements, some modified, some not - and they sure as hell don't want you to know that because you'd realise you're paying £2000 for a watch that actually cost £100 to build. As a result each watch 'brand' will describe their watch as having a particular 'caliber' - which isn't actually a movement in itself but a moniker for their version of a movement. So Breitling for example will list their watches with their 'caliber' numbers, but we all know that Breitling use only inexpensive ETA movements in their watches. Panerai do too - they have realised there's only so long that you can get away with taking the piss and have designed their own movement for one of their watches - good for them (though I think that their in-house movement watch is rather expensive IIRC).
Ask yourself if you care, that's all that matters really. If you see watches as engineering, then the movement is an essential part of the credibility of the watch. If you just see watches as jewellery, then go for the precious metals or the 'jewellery' watches - or buy a replica. There is simply no point in paying £2000 for a steel watch with an ETA movement when the Chinese knock out exact replicas using the same movement and the same quality steel for £150. However if you are into the jewellery aspect, then a genuine solid gold / platinum watch won't be available from anyone but the original manufacturer. And if that's your bag, it doesn't really matter whether the movement is from ETA or a £1 quartz movement - there's £2000 or more of platinum on your wrist.
The top tier manufactures make their own movements from scratch (as do Seiko, interestingly enough - who make *everything* in-house and thus I have a lot of respect for) and thus have complete freedom to design a dial with oddball complications in any place they desire. This is why the top watches are hard to fake... there aren't generic movements on the market that do what the genuine watches do.
To answer your question - the watch 'brands' I *know* to make their own movements (mostly, there will be a few with bought-in movements, usually at the bottom of the range) are the top tier (Patek, Vacheron, Blancpain, Breguet, Lange), Rolex make their own movements now across the entire range, JLC make great movements, Zenith make the El Primero movement (it's a great movement) and are capitalising on that - not sure about the rest of their watches.
There are a bunch of other 2nd tier brands that sell very expensive watches with plenty of complications - most start with an ETA / Unitas movement and modify it. You have to decide at what point the manufacture has put enough of its own creativity and R&D into the base movement to justify it being a 'new' movement or mostly 'in-house'. Some do make so many changes that they may as well have built a new movement from scratch - Franck Muller make everything from a base watch with an ETA 2892, unmodified, movement (this watch is available as a perfect replica at a fraction of the price) to the most complicated watches ever (the Aeternitas Mega range are worth looking at)... these are based on run-of-the-mill ETA movements but there's not much left of the ETA in there - incredible engineering.
To be honest, you should just buy for your own reasons - if the quality and originality of movement are not an issue to you, you just want the looks or the status of the brand, then in some respects the internals are irrelevant (hell, even Patek make a quartz watch...). But now that perfect replicas of such watches are available, it seems silly to pay the thousands for a watch which really only cost £100 to produce.
baz1950 said:
Is there a published definative list of which watchmakers use whose movements?
I know there are thousands of permutations, but afaik, Rolex for example now make all their own, Zenith and Patek for example also. Who else, is what i'm wondering and linked to another thread is it important?
I think the short answer is no, there is no definitive answer/list.I know there are thousands of permutations, but afaik, Rolex for example now make all their own, Zenith and Patek for example also. Who else, is what i'm wondering and linked to another thread is it important?
Apart from anything else it can change at a moments notice.
You really have to answer it case by case.
As for whether its important ... it is if it matters to you ...
Thanks for the comments and knowledge guys. I suppose i'm a badge snob to some extent as i wouldn't knowingly put a fake on my wrist out of choice.
Having read Cyberface's words on previous threads, i was beginning to doubt the wisdom of ever buying the 'real deal' if a fake/replica option existed. I say that based on buying a known Daytona fake, of which there are many i know, but it didn't get anywhere near the real one i have. The IWC i recently bought is very good. I like it and it does the job i needed, that of a big, clear, legible dial i can read without glasses BUT, it doesn't quite feel as much quality as the Rolex? even if the packing and box etc are much grander. It was much cheaper, with a £1000 difference on the rrp's but with a real world differential of £2700 vs £6000 on the high street!
In essence, i like the Panerai/Anonimo look but if i can buy a good fake Panerai for a few hundred, then even buying a more competatively priced Anonimo in the low thousands is still questionable.
I suppose i'm hankering after a small collection after all but don't see the point of investing £1000's when £100's will give me the same 'look'.
EDIT.
Are these the guys for replicas? Not cheap but if principally the 'same' watch then a bargain!
http://www.replicawatchesuk.co.uk/category.php?id=...
Having read Cyberface's words on previous threads, i was beginning to doubt the wisdom of ever buying the 'real deal' if a fake/replica option existed. I say that based on buying a known Daytona fake, of which there are many i know, but it didn't get anywhere near the real one i have. The IWC i recently bought is very good. I like it and it does the job i needed, that of a big, clear, legible dial i can read without glasses BUT, it doesn't quite feel as much quality as the Rolex? even if the packing and box etc are much grander. It was much cheaper, with a £1000 difference on the rrp's but with a real world differential of £2700 vs £6000 on the high street!
In essence, i like the Panerai/Anonimo look but if i can buy a good fake Panerai for a few hundred, then even buying a more competatively priced Anonimo in the low thousands is still questionable.
I suppose i'm hankering after a small collection after all but don't see the point of investing £1000's when £100's will give me the same 'look'.
EDIT.
Are these the guys for replicas? Not cheap but if principally the 'same' watch then a bargain!
http://www.replicawatchesuk.co.uk/category.php?id=...
Edited by baz1950 on Wednesday 18th June 10:35
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