Discussion
Hi all,
I have noticed that people with good taste have often similar interests.
Noticed that several guys here with a taste for nices watches, drive nice cars (e.g. Porsche)
But now I wondered, my third love is nice pens, do the gentlemen here also like nice, fancy writing instruments such as Mont Blanc, (they have a wonderfull series of limite editions ...)
Ronny
I have noticed that people with good taste have often similar interests.
Noticed that several guys here with a taste for nices watches, drive nice cars (e.g. Porsche)
But now I wondered, my third love is nice pens, do the gentlemen here also like nice, fancy writing instruments such as Mont Blanc, (they have a wonderfull series of limite editions ...)
Ronny
I think some of it (especially in the City) is the 'expected' accessories to have once one has reached a certain level, as well as the people who are passionate about proper writing with proper fountain pens.
Personally I don't get off on fountain pens, I wrote with them at prep school and stopped as soon as I left
A good quality, comfortable and ergonomic rollerball or ballpoint is all that I ask for, though I do prefer to buy high quality infrequently than poor quality constantly. And yes, I have a Montblanc Bohème biro
but it writes well, I like the ergonomics, and I bought it when I was going through a phase of buying status-y things in my early 20s because I'd come from nothing. Thing is, the pen is still going strong.
I wouldn't be a pen collector like I'm a watch collector though - pens don't have a lot of moving parts and it's the engineering in watches that spins my wheel. Now my girlfriend... she'll end up with loads of Montblancs because she keeps losing them. I bought her a special edition Je t'aime Bohème pen with a ruby heart on the clip, she lost it a couple of months ago. She was utterly gutted, so I've bought her a new one with rose gold (colour of her hair) for her birthday this weekend. (She doesn't read Pistonheads, don't worry). Hopefully she'll be more careful with this one.
Oddly enough she got a hell of a lot more use out of hers than I do with mine. Mine is stuck in my suit coat and comes out every so often in meetings etc. She uses hers all the time because she loves it (or loved it).
So - are you a fountain pen type or are you happy with rollerballs and just like the design and quality materials??
Or is comparing a fountain pen and a rollerball the equivalent of comparing the Lange 1 movement with a quartz digital??
Personally I don't get off on fountain pens, I wrote with them at prep school and stopped as soon as I left
A good quality, comfortable and ergonomic rollerball or ballpoint is all that I ask for, though I do prefer to buy high quality infrequently than poor quality constantly. And yes, I have a Montblanc Bohème biro
but it writes well, I like the ergonomics, and I bought it when I was going through a phase of buying status-y things in my early 20s because I'd come from nothing. Thing is, the pen is still going strong.I wouldn't be a pen collector like I'm a watch collector though - pens don't have a lot of moving parts and it's the engineering in watches that spins my wheel. Now my girlfriend... she'll end up with loads of Montblancs because she keeps losing them. I bought her a special edition Je t'aime Bohème pen with a ruby heart on the clip, she lost it a couple of months ago. She was utterly gutted, so I've bought her a new one with rose gold (colour of her hair) for her birthday this weekend. (She doesn't read Pistonheads, don't worry). Hopefully she'll be more careful with this one.
Oddly enough she got a hell of a lot more use out of hers than I do with mine. Mine is stuck in my suit coat and comes out every so often in meetings etc. She uses hers all the time because she loves it (or loved it).
So - are you a fountain pen type or are you happy with rollerballs and just like the design and quality materials??
Or is comparing a fountain pen and a rollerball the equivalent of comparing the Lange 1 movement with a quartz digital??
I think that there's a strong analogy between choosing to write with a fountain pen and appreciating the craftsmanship that goes into the manufacture of a fine mechanical watch. A ballpoint might be more practical, or a quartz watch might be more accurate, but there is a quiet satisfaction to be had from their less obvious alternatives.
For work, I use rollerball pens to take notes and I keep boxes of them in my office and in my study at home. They're efficient and replaceable and I simply can't write as quickly with a fountain pen.
I've had a couple of Mont Blancs and they didn't feel right to me. However, I've had a Cross Townsend fountain pen for the past 12 years which I love. The fit and weight are right in my hand and it's got the best nib I've ever come across.
I use it for things that matter. I use it to write cards to my wife or if I'm writing a letter to my Dad - it's what I used to sign the contracts and deeds for the purchase of our new house. The Cross mightn't be as prestigious as a Meisterstuck but it works for me. There are times in life when you need to take your time writing something and my Cross is perfect for that.
Sorry if this is a bit heavy; been a long day!
M
For work, I use rollerball pens to take notes and I keep boxes of them in my office and in my study at home. They're efficient and replaceable and I simply can't write as quickly with a fountain pen.
I've had a couple of Mont Blancs and they didn't feel right to me. However, I've had a Cross Townsend fountain pen for the past 12 years which I love. The fit and weight are right in my hand and it's got the best nib I've ever come across.
I use it for things that matter. I use it to write cards to my wife or if I'm writing a letter to my Dad - it's what I used to sign the contracts and deeds for the purchase of our new house. The Cross mightn't be as prestigious as a Meisterstuck but it works for me. There are times in life when you need to take your time writing something and my Cross is perfect for that.
Sorry if this is a bit heavy; been a long day!
M
I dunno, I think my watches and cars clash, by in ther way things have been described here.
My watches are IWC Portugeuse, Tag Heuer, Heuer Vintage Chrono and a Poljet Aviator and I drive a 1970 Corvette Stingray with loads of mods for fun and a Subaru Impreza and Freelander as daily drivers. Do my watches match my cars? I dont think so.
G
My watches are IWC Portugeuse, Tag Heuer, Heuer Vintage Chrono and a Poljet Aviator and I drive a 1970 Corvette Stingray with loads of mods for fun and a Subaru Impreza and Freelander as daily drivers. Do my watches match my cars? I dont think so.
G
As an interest I'd say you might be onto something. A good mechanical watch, for me, is a relatively affordable and very space-efficient way of getting your hands on a piece of conspicuously good engineering and craftsmanship. Thats not to say my Fiat Punto doesnt have some clever engineering or attention to detail in parts, but its certainly not as obvious as on a Zonda or a good watch.
Theres also something about the history of mankind in there- just as the car and aeroplane were great historical landmarks, so was getting an accurate timepiece that you could carry around with you. For the first time in history, noone has an excuse for not knowing the time, no matter where they are.
Pens I used to be hung up on in my school/uni days when I id a lot of writing, but like many peoples collection of inexpensive Sekondas and Casios, it was generally full of excellent roller balls. The best pen I've ever used was a random rollerball I found at the Airport where I worked. Sadly I lost it (another reason why I dont indulge in spendy pens) before checking the net for more, but it wrote better, and was far more comfortable than my Cross Apogee (also an airport find).
Theres also something about the history of mankind in there- just as the car and aeroplane were great historical landmarks, so was getting an accurate timepiece that you could carry around with you. For the first time in history, noone has an excuse for not knowing the time, no matter where they are.
Pens I used to be hung up on in my school/uni days when I id a lot of writing, but like many peoples collection of inexpensive Sekondas and Casios, it was generally full of excellent roller balls. The best pen I've ever used was a random rollerball I found at the Airport where I worked. Sadly I lost it (another reason why I dont indulge in spendy pens) before checking the net for more, but it wrote better, and was far more comfortable than my Cross Apogee (also an airport find).
Edited by glazbagun on Saturday 14th June 09:26
cyberface said:
I think some of it (especially in the City) is the 'expected' accessories to have once one has reached a certain level, as well as the people who are passionate about proper writing with proper fountain pens.
I actually am a bit of a reverse snob. Despite the MB pens I tend to use a gel pen in meetings - I started this after attending a meeting where every single attendee pulled out a MB platinum pen to take notes with. It was very funny, in an American Psycho way (I guess the guy with the Limited Edition Rose Gold pen would be killed later that evening), but also a little sad, almost like all the kids having to have the same pencilcase as the cool kid at school!Well taste is a matter of opinion. I reckon my car and watch are pretty cool. Pens - i haven't bought one for at least 20 years. They are free all over the place from hotels, suppliers, banks - you name it and it costs nothing when you lose one. It is much harder to leave your car or watch lying around and forget to pick it up. That's not to say i wouldn't love to have a fine pen but i would lose it inside a week. I have never detected any snobbery over my production of a "this was was nicked from Barclays" or "Novartis cow medicine" pen at a meeting.
Agreed about pens. Watches, shoes, cars, suits/jackets all have to be nice good quality but don't have to be expensive more a VFM issue like my Baumler jacket and overcoat. I have promised myself a visit to the John Lobb factory shop to get my next pair of shoes. I have a 30 quid parker (present from me mum) and a space pen (gizit from a supplier). Don't use either I use freebie ball points. Really don't understand the obsession with expensive pens. I don't necessarily regard a Porsche as good taste. Most ppl that buy Porsches buy em for exactly the same reason why most ppl that buy Rolex think that Rolex wearing gives the owner a lift in social status. I would say that doing the same as every other sheep wannabe is not a good sign of taste.
Maxf said:
cyberface said:
I think some of it (especially in the City) is the 'expected' accessories to have once one has reached a certain level, as well as the people who are passionate about proper writing with proper fountain pens.
I actually am a bit of a reverse snob. Despite the MB pens I tend to use a gel pen in meetings - I started this after attending a meeting where every single attendee pulled out a MB platinum pen to take notes with. It was very funny, in an American Psycho way (I guess the guy with the Limited Edition Rose Gold pen would be killed later that evening), but also a little sad, almost like all the kids having to have the same pencilcase as the cool kid at school!Actually there's a bit of a trend there. I felt the same way a couple of years ago - now I tend to buy what I *like*, so long as I can afford it.
I always thought it'd be an interesting psychological study - whether being brought up with wealth or attaining it yourself affects your buying habits (especially for something like a pen, where there is an astronomic amount of diminishing returns as you spend more) - or whether it's purely emotional maturity and everyone goes through the same phases as they get older.
Having been pretty poor as a kid, on bagging a job in the City and quite quickly having a decent amount of disposable income (I have no capital, sadly, and I'm not what one would call 'wealthy' - but I have enough to buy toys, which I did... which is why I'll never be wealthy / rich / whatever you prefer
) I quickly bought toys that could be seen as 'status' symbols - the stereotypical Porsche, Rolex, MB pen, latest top-end Nokia phone (like that titanium sliding one), Church's shoes, etc. In my early thirties I then thought I looked like I felt that I had a point to prove (and a bit of a sad stereotype) - which I probably did. So I did what you say above - deliberately choose something utilitarian where my contemporaries would have something flashy. I still loved my watches but wore oddball cheap stuff to work, like a Lacie black plastic quartz watch with a USB flashdrive built into the strap, or my CWC manual wind on a NATO strap. I used a Treo phone purely for its functionality, and used it until it broke, so it looked incredibly tatty for ages. The MB pen went back in its box.Now I realise that the reverse-snobbery is actually just as concerned about other peoples' perceptions of you as the showy youngster. So now I don't really bother about either fashion or anti-fashion, or for making a statement either way. I'm more concerned about value for *me* now - not necessarily value for money, since something that saves me a lot of time but costs a lot has a lot of value to me.
Yeah, most of this is explainable purely by increasing emotional maturity as I got older. The question I find interesting is whether this is the same for everyone? Whether it's just 'growing up' and everyone goes through these phases - or whether people born into wealth, where all toys were available and there were no real 'aspirations' because these people were already there, behave in the same manner?
I still have aspirations - mainly because my upbringing was mostly at a school where I was surrounded by people much more wealthy than myself (scholarship boy) - but the material ones are now only for things I'm passionate about. Watches are a good example of this - and I think the type of watch I aspire to defines this change in mindset (and one could call this 'taste') - where the quality of construction, an in-house movement, interesting complications and a lack of showiness is everything to me. I don't want something flashy that shouts wealth, equally neither do I want something that quietly whispers 'good taste'... I'm not bothered about other peoples' perceptions. The watch has to satisfy me. If other people like it, that's cool - if it's out of fashion or looks like a waste of money, that's cool too. I don't care, as long as I love it.
In some ways this is the opposite mindset to those seeking to have 'good taste' - one can try to find what the defined norms in accessories for 'good taste' are at the moment, and buy these... but can one purchase good taste? And if anything is defined in terms of group perception, then by definition you'd have to follow a particular herd to fit the stereotype.
As someone wise once said, if you always walk in the opposite direction to the 'sheep', your directions are therefore dictated by the 'sheep'. I don't care to follow the herd, but if the herd is going where I want to be then I'm perfectly happy to tag along.
You see, one day, that vintage 128 MB USB 1.1 flashdrive watch will be the height of good taste at functions across the country.
cyberface said:
You see, one day, that vintage 128 MB USB 1.1 flashdrive watch will be the height of good taste at functions across the country.
I went through a stage of wearing my '80s Seiko TV watch to work to ensure I was the height of anti(?)geekdom. It seems you'd have had me lickedThe sheep comment is interesting, I agree totally but had never really thought about it like that until I read it just now!
It's interesting - I'm certainly past the 'I must impress people' yet it just so happens that I drive a Cayman S, have a Sea Dweller as well as my sports watch but purely for the reasons that for my budget they wre pretty much the best there was in their field.
The Porsche beat the competition of Merc and BMW by being the car that was the fastest round a track yet was a reliable and (relatively) luxurious daily drive. The Rolex was simply felt the most robust and had classic styling and came out on top against the IWCs and Pans - I'm sure a Seiko dive watch would fit the bill but as it was a pressie from the missus, it had to be something that she liked and she felt the Seiko wasn't special enough.
Had I more choice (I'm in Dubai), then maybe I would have looked at different options such as a beater and an Exige/Noble/TVR etc... but they are not readily available.
As a watch choice of my own? - recently got a GO PML which I love and is fantastic in its anonymity.
Does this still make me a cliché for driving the pork and having a Rolex? Probably but I couldn't give a damn - they are still top of what they do.
The Porsche beat the competition of Merc and BMW by being the car that was the fastest round a track yet was a reliable and (relatively) luxurious daily drive. The Rolex was simply felt the most robust and had classic styling and came out on top against the IWCs and Pans - I'm sure a Seiko dive watch would fit the bill but as it was a pressie from the missus, it had to be something that she liked and she felt the Seiko wasn't special enough.
Had I more choice (I'm in Dubai), then maybe I would have looked at different options such as a beater and an Exige/Noble/TVR etc... but they are not readily available.
As a watch choice of my own? - recently got a GO PML which I love and is fantastic in its anonymity.
Does this still make me a cliché for driving the pork and having a Rolex? Probably but I couldn't give a damn - they are still top of what they do.
I tend to avoid certain items if I think they are too much of a pretentious status symbol. So no Rolex for me thanks, even though I quite like certain models. Same goes for cars. I have no interest in owning blatantly flashy cars like most Ferraris, Lambos etc (certain classics excepted). Flashy is just not my style, but I don't like cheap tat either. Good taste and a liking for overtly flashy things do not tend to go hand in hand. Immensely wealthy Arabs tend to prove this point quite well. There's obviously a cultural element to the definition of good taste too.
Interesting.
I am a watch (IWC, Panerai, TAG) and car man (Lotus) and own an MB pen but feel no real attachment to the pen. It verges too much on jewelrey and is not a finely engineered object. The writing part costs about £3 to replace
I also like nice British suits and shoes (Jeffery West!) which I feel are engineered with skill and craftsmanship.
How do we all feel about Vertu mobile phones? Mass produced bling?
I am a watch (IWC, Panerai, TAG) and car man (Lotus) and own an MB pen but feel no real attachment to the pen. It verges too much on jewelrey and is not a finely engineered object. The writing part costs about £3 to replace
I also like nice British suits and shoes (Jeffery West!) which I feel are engineered with skill and craftsmanship.
How do we all feel about Vertu mobile phones? Mass produced bling?
Not sure I'd agree that fine tailoring and shoemaking is 'engineering' in any way, but agree with you. Jeffery-West shoes are certainly a bit 'fine line' between showy and just damn good shoes. I love them - I have a pair of boots with the conker-polish leather (I'm no connoisseur but the shoes look like well polished conkers!!! ) and they are superbly made and will last a long time. My last pair of Church's shoes, worn to work with 3 miles a day walking, lasted 7 years...
As to Vertu phones... don't see the point myself, technology moves too fast to make high levels of craftsmanship worthwhile. After all, regardless of the craftsmanship and quality of the phone, there *will* be shortly a time in which the object is useless in its primary function because the 'old' GSM networks have been switched off in favour of something better. An old Patek may not keep time *as well* as a modern quartz watch, but it still keeps time - it will still perform adequately in its primary function.
The trouble with the Vertu is that the engineers simply cannot ensure that their creation will be of any use 10 years down the road so there is no point to using precious metals / fancy engineering. It's all branding, marketing and massively overpriced tat that's sold to those with no taste whatsoever IMO. Unless their 'concierge' service is infinitely better than Amex Centurion's (you'll have one of those too, surely) then I don't see what the added value actually is. The iPhone offered technology you couldn't get anywhere else and made a massive impact - for a consumer-priced toy. And Vertu sell old Nokia kit for £5k. And there are people out there stupid enough to buy them, or think that wasting wealth is the ultimate in one-upmanship. Wasting wealth is the ultimate in vulgarity, since you're throwing away what someone else in need could use.
At least the ultra-rich pissing contest between men like Gates, Buffett, Mittal etc. tends to revolve around who can give the most to charity, which at least means some of the wealth gets re-used, and the resources are recycled. If the top 10 richest men on the planet bought as many government bonds and cash as they could and then burnt them (or found some other way of basically destroying resources) then they'd be criminals...
And I agree with the statement above that 'good taste' is culturally defined and very dependent on social groups - in fact it's one of the things used to maintain divisions in social groups (e.g. the 'old money' sneer at the 'new money' even though they are equally wealthy). Funny old world, really.
I'll just roll along watching it, I find the game tedious these days....
) and they are superbly made and will last a long time. My last pair of Church's shoes, worn to work with 3 miles a day walking, lasted 7 years...As to Vertu phones... don't see the point myself, technology moves too fast to make high levels of craftsmanship worthwhile. After all, regardless of the craftsmanship and quality of the phone, there *will* be shortly a time in which the object is useless in its primary function because the 'old' GSM networks have been switched off in favour of something better. An old Patek may not keep time *as well* as a modern quartz watch, but it still keeps time - it will still perform adequately in its primary function.
The trouble with the Vertu is that the engineers simply cannot ensure that their creation will be of any use 10 years down the road so there is no point to using precious metals / fancy engineering. It's all branding, marketing and massively overpriced tat that's sold to those with no taste whatsoever IMO. Unless their 'concierge' service is infinitely better than Amex Centurion's (you'll have one of those too, surely) then I don't see what the added value actually is. The iPhone offered technology you couldn't get anywhere else and made a massive impact - for a consumer-priced toy. And Vertu sell old Nokia kit for £5k. And there are people out there stupid enough to buy them, or think that wasting wealth is the ultimate in one-upmanship. Wasting wealth is the ultimate in vulgarity, since you're throwing away what someone else in need could use.
At least the ultra-rich pissing contest between men like Gates, Buffett, Mittal etc. tends to revolve around who can give the most to charity, which at least means some of the wealth gets re-used, and the resources are recycled. If the top 10 richest men on the planet bought as many government bonds and cash as they could and then burnt them (or found some other way of basically destroying resources) then they'd be criminals...
And I agree with the statement above that 'good taste' is culturally defined and very dependent on social groups - in fact it's one of the things used to maintain divisions in social groups (e.g. the 'old money' sneer at the 'new money' even though they are equally wealthy). Funny old world, really.
I'll just roll along watching it, I find the game tedious these days....
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