Fake Watches

[ab@]

https://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=3768307

I wouldnt buy one, as i would never feel comfortable wearing one and people that know... well they know!

But I was chatting to a friend of mine about the watch i just bought (Citizen Eco Drive) and he showed me this Tag Heuer and it looked excellent, he said he got it from this site, paid £150... madness i thought.

I dont know much about watches but for example, the one i have listed above, what are the clear differences between that and the real thing? Are copies getting better and better?

[Don1]

Copies are getting better and better - on the outside. Open it up, and it's a different story.

(Or rather that tends to be the main thought around here - I wouldn't know too much one way or the other!)

[ab@]

Yeah, its no good having a great looking watch which is losing a minute every day or something!?

I was just intrigued as the copy owned by my friend looked fantastic.

[retrorider]

many of the good replicas use eta movements which many of the big brands use anyway.this guy sells some nice stuff.
https://www.cqout.com/list.asp?seller=exclusivedis...

[AllTorque]

I bought a fake Rolex Sub for £100 just for sts and giggles - it's been excellent really in all regards, but I'd say the strap is possibly a weak point. It just feels a little too light and flimsy to be the real deal. On the wrist though I defy anyone to tell the difference just by looking. It has the full automatic mechanism, sapphire crystal face etc and hasn't lost any time in a year. Looks lovely and tells the time with the added advantage that you don't care if you bust it - what more could you want?

Howeverrrrrr, it's not water proof at all which is a bit of a bugger for a submariner. Irony personified!

[ab@]

Again, he tells me that it has same movement in it as a few decent watch makes, its just not a real Tag movement.

Tempted, but wouldnt be able to sleep at night!

[briSk]

if i were spending £150 i'd be spending it on a seiko. full stop!

[zidan172]

Agree with the comment about the strap on a replica rolex. I bought a fake seadweller costing around £150 and whilst the watch itself is excellent the strap does let it down a bit.

[Bungleaio]

I was suprised by how many fakes there are in the PH classifieds.

Not buying fakes is what sets people apart from pikeys.

[ab@]

briSk said:

if i were spending £150 i'd be spending it on a seiko. full stop!

I think i would be too to be honest! Well i just bought a Citizen Eco-Drive for £100. Certainly wont be buying a fake!

[huytonman]

At the end of the day a fake is a fake. If thats what floats your boat then thats OK but there are a few things to consider about all fakes like this. Somebody, somewhere has to make them and the odds are that they are being paid pennies i.e. essentially slave labour, so thats one thing. Another is that a lot of fake DVD's etc are sourced out of places where terrorists are known to dominate the market as in mafia control, so although it sounds far fetched you really could end up paying for that few ounces of Semtex that blows some poor bugger up just so you can watch a film on the cheap. Whether this applies to watches I cant say but essentially its a criminal activity that we subsidize when we buy this stuff. Another thing is that YOU know its a fake and you cant con yourself, if you like the irony then fair enough. I read that Eddie Jordan used to have one (maybe more) Rolex Daytona's but he used to wear a fake just to enjoy conning people and presumably not to get the real one damaged during his travels. I was in Shanghai last year and bought a "Rolex Yachtmaster" at the market, really to see how good it was and how long it would last. As a facsimile it was OK and for a tenner was hard to fault. But after a couple of months it started losing time then stopped so it was basically a pile of crap. Lesson learned even though I knew it would end up that way and yes I know that I ignored my advice at the start of this reply.
Save up for the real thing or get something decent for the same amount of money that doesnt have a designer badge, there are plenty of good quality (usually made in germany) watches out there using swiss mechanical movements, try Time Factors (http://www.timefactors.com/index.html) he has some fine examples for less than £200.

[cyberface]

Bungleaio said:

I was suprised by how many fakes there are in the PH classifieds.

Not buying fakes is what sets people apart from pikeys.

Nonsense. I bought a couple of fakes because they are cheap and perfect for learning watch disassembly, servicing, etc. on. Rolex have annoying 'special' case backs that need a special tool to remove, so whilst a fake Rolex may not have the correct movement, being able to open them up, adjust / remove the bracelets, etc. is worth knowing (it's also a decent way of avoiding getting ripped off... with the right tool, it's easy to get the back off a Rolex without any damage and see what movement's in there... )

As far as fakes go though - the top end ones use ETA copy movements and are good practice for working on ETA-based watches (including a lot of expensive brands). Most of them are decent watches in their own right - they're made in China and quality control is non-existent, so be prepared to have to mess about with one yourself if you want it to be 'perfect' but to some people it's a full-on hobby.

I can state from experience that the current 'best available' submariner rep (ETA movement) keeps better time than the genuine watch. You won't get proper waterproofing without opening the watch up and making sure everything is in order though.

It's got to the point where the best replicas will take genuine parts - leaving right old frankenstein's monsters of watches (usually Rolexes) which are generally very well made watches in their own right (because Rolex did the design and R&D for the case and bracelet, and ETA did the R&D for the movement). Morally it's repugnant, but I've owned 2 genuine steel sports Rolexes and have close friends with the others (I had Explorer II and Daytona, I have friends with Sub and Seadweller), consider myself someone with a very good eye for detail, and the best reps, with a few modifications, are indistinguishable from the genuine watch until you get a loupe out, listen to the movement or take the back off.

Daytona owners are safe as there aren't any good Daytona reps, due to the movement. But if you like Rolex's Submariner, but hate their market manipulation with the Daytona and new Milgauss, and are quite happy to do the company some damage, then a top-end replica Sub will work almost as well as a real one.

I'm sitting on the fence on this one. Morally I don't support counterfeiting, which is what this is. Then again Rolex's attitude with steel Daytonas and green-glass Milgausses which is a nice cosy cartel with artificial waiting lists and huge profits for dealers, nudge and a wink gets you a watch to sell on at £3k profit... I find that pretty repugnant too.

The best counterattack to fake watches is to buy watches with display backs. Then the 'brands' who take £150 worth of watch and sell it for £1500 on the back of their 'brand name' will have to work a bit harder to avoid the Chinese making the same watch and selling it for a more realistic price.

Seems like a funny attitude from someone who loves watches and has a cheap collection, but I see the value in the movement and the complications or finishing of the movement. The replicas will never have this - they'll use mass-market ETAs at the top end, and some are beginning to add some engraving / finishing work to the rotor, but the replica market caters for those who want to be seen to be wearing something expensive i.e. image. There isn't much of a market for replica movements that have every plate polished / detailed (check out the movement in a Lange 1 to see what I mean). With the advent of chinese tourbillons, some replica makers are having a go at making their own complications - but if you're capable of doing this sort of thing properly, then you may as well start up your own brand and compete legally (and avoid being pursued by the big brands' legal departments) - which they are doing...

One of the reasons I'll not own a Rolex again though. There's a lot more spin than substance with the modern watches. The vintage ones are a different kettle of fish because they *were* proper tool watches then - but not now. The Deep Sea is a case in point - humans aren't used to go that deep any more, and they sure as hell won't be wearing Rolexes. Base your company on marketing spin and you'll get counterfeiters swarming after you. Make a genuinely innovative, different product (special movement, odd complication, etc.) and you've got the market to yourself. Can you see the Chinese counterfeiters attempt to make Richard Mille watches or Urwerk watches?

This may be a bit controversial for me, and open up a bit of a flamewar, but many of the watches that are popularly faked are those which are bought by most people to pose and show off wealth anyway... you'll find that the lovely subtle, understated but exquisitely made pieces by the top manufactures aren't offered by the Chinese replica shops... whereas the well-known instantly-recognisable ones are...

disclosure: all my watches are genuine 'real' items apart from a couple of fake Rolexes I bought to take apart. I chose Rolex as if I successfully took it apart, lubricated it and reassembled it then I'd have an item I could give to one of my younger half-brothers who'd love it. From learning and acquiring the tools, I've fixed a friend's watch. Would I wear a fake Rolex? Probably not, I'd have to modify it to absolute visual accuracy because the shame would be too much

[Seb d]

While I'd pay £100 for a nice, interesting watch to wear as a knockabout, I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a fake. It's the fact that it's pretending to be something that it isn't is what I don't like. But a £100 or £150 watch that doesn't look like a Rolex, Breitling etc. is a different story. Having said that, I bought a fake Daytona and a fake Navitimer whilst in China because it seemed like thing to do, but each one cost me just £20, both have since been given to friends as fun gifts and it was wearing the Daytona that made me go out and buy my first 'proper' watch.

[lowdrag]

An interesting and thought provoking topic. I've never had a fake unless you count Werners as copies which I don't. I have to say that I bought one from him and wore it for a month but after the initial fun of fooling friends it is in the drawer and the real watches have come out again. In principle, like CF, I am against copies but like CF object to the marketing ploys of the big names, trying to artificially maintain high prices all over the world. In a similar way Le Creuset kitchen ware was always far cheaper in France than elsewhere, particularly UK, but since the euro they have stabilised their prices across Europe. I couldn't though, personally, feel comfortable wearing a fake never mind the ethics. Even if others don't, I know I'm wearing a fake.

[barney123]

I have often wondered what quality the rep's are.
I have a genuine daytona ss/gold (can't understand the stainless premium issue - dont like them) but it seems you can pay £600+ for a rep if you go for the swiss movement etc (eg w w w bluefakes.com) - they state that they are indistinguishable from the real thing.

[cyberface]

barney123 said:

I have often wondered what quality the rep's are.
I have a genuine daytona ss/gold (can't understand the stainless premium issue - dont like them) but it seems you can pay £600+ for a rep if you go for the swiss movement etc (eg w w w bluefakes.com) - they state that they are indistinguishable from the real thing.

You can't get Daytona reps that'd fool someone who'd owned a real one. Subs and sea dwellers, yeah. But it all comes down to what movements are available on the market for the counterfeiters to buy (or copy, when it comes to it).

All 'top end' Daytona reps use Valjoux 7750 or copies of said movement and the seconds run in the wrong place compared to the genuine watch. There are a few out there with additional wheels on the bridge to move the seconds counter around, but they're thicker than the genuine article and also don't last longer than 6 months or so (the additional gears aren't run in bearings or jewels and without constant lubrication & maintenance wear out.

That said, I had my genuine daytona skip minutes on the chrono occasionally so none of them are super-quality movements. Complications like that, regularly used, need looking after or something really top-end. Funnily enough the Omega chrono seems to be rock-solid reliable compared to the Rolex and 7750s I've used, but we're talking small samples here so it may just be me

[lowdrag]

I've used the chrono on my Navitimer I don't know how many times over the 10 years and it still runs perfectly. I think that's a 7750 Valjoux too IIRC. It never skipped but once in a while I have to start and reset because the chrono hour hand is slightly off vertical.

[benny.c]

I bought two fakes from CQOut but it was to help me decide which watch I wanted to buy, and spend some proper money on. I had narrowed my choice down to the Speedmaster, Monaco and Sin 856 (original aren't I ). I discounted the Sinn in the end because it was a little too "utilitarian" looking for what I wanted which left just the two. I had tried on the two watches several times but couldn't decide which I preferred. Then I found the fakes for £30 each and I've worn them over the last two months to give me more of an idea of which suits me best.

The Speedy is actually pretty good and weighty for £30, and running OK. The Tag is weighty, looks OK from a distance but makes some awful noises when you move it I wouldn't want to rely on it catch a plane either.

I case you're interested, the Speedy has won the battle for me as with a leather strap and bracelet, it should do all jobs from smart to sports. But I've plumped for the "racing" version Not one for the purists I know, but I like it. More on that when I get my mitts on it

Edited by benny.c on Wednesday 4th June 14:33

[ab@]

I imagine you need to pay a fair whack for a decent rep - £50/60 wont cut it.

A £400 rep of a £2000 watch needs to be good to sell!

[benny.c]

Yup. £30 was great for me as they are disposable (I may keep the Speedy )

I just couldn't spend any more than that. As others have said, I'd rather spend £150 on a good, original watch.