Breguet XX Transatlantique - movement fragility?
Discussion
I had to sell my steel Daytona last year and now am fortunately in a position where I can get another 'special' steel sports chrono. I asked this question off-topic on another thread and got excellent suggestions - and have fallen for one of them - the new-ish Breguet XX transatlantique (with date, stainless bracelet, black face, flyback chrono). Having done some googling, I'm finding bad stuff about the robustness of the watch and the reliability of the movement.
What I'm interested in is what the problem with the movement is. Old Breguet XXs had Lemania movements, which used to supply many other top watch manufactures, but apparently now Swatch have bought them the movements are now only to be used in Breguet products? (this of course could mean that Breguet now have 'in-house' movements if the Lemania movements are now only to be used by Breguet).
Even with my Google skills I'm finding it difficult to find out exactly what movement is used in the 2000-present Breguet XX. Some searches claim that the Breguet uses the Lemania 1352 movement, others claim that it uses the Lemania 1372 movement. Most sites just repeat the 'Breguet 582 caliber' specification, but many manufactures take other movements, modify them a bit (even if it's just decoration) and give them their own brand's 'caliber' number.
Then I find an article on Timezone where the writer claims the Lemania 1352 is utterly inferior and 'frankly inappropriate' in a Breguet... and responsible for 'clogging servicing channels with malfunctioning Type XX chronographs'. Hmmmm.
Basically I'm after a top-quality sports chrono but I don't want another Daytona or the bulls
t that goes around trying to buy one without a huge premium. Also, despite the supposed chronic lack of supply causing the huge buy-me-now premium, it's not a rare watch and I see someone with one at least every day (forgive me, I work in finance in the city).
However I know the Daytona is a tough little bugger, is compact and looks just the right size on my wrist, and took years of daily wear without any aggro whatsoever. I only had it 5 years or so, so serviced it once, but it felt, appeared and acted robust and reliable.
I've fallen for the Breguet - it's IMO more beautiful than the Daytona, it has a date function (an essential complication bizarrely missing in the Rolex), it's the same size and will fit my narrow wrist properly, and Breguet to me is in the top class of watches and well above Rolex - I'd put Breguet up there with Patek, VC, JLC, etc. on history alone. Yeah I know the XX is entry-level and hardly one of their haute horlogerie pieces but I am looking for a sports chrono, after all
The history of Breguet and the love I have for their other traditional watches (especially the tourbillons, which Breguet himself designed, and the beautiful guilloched faces) marks it out to me well above a comparable Zenith, Blancpain and definitely Rolex.
There are a couple of Breguet type XXs for sale now, one steel, one titanium, and I'm serious about buying one - but a poster here advised me to go for the Blancpain... and I hear these stories that both watches have unreliable, 'inferior' movements in them. This isn't pocket change for me and I don't have a vast collection of 'special' watches to wear instead, nor an infinite fund to spend on constant servicing / maintenance. I'm just looking for something I can wear daily like my old Daytona, with a service every few years (3-5) - daily wear to me doesn't involve smashing my arms around so I'm not expecting G-Shock strength, but some of these comments sgging off the movement in the Breguet are spooking me somewhat.
Is this yet another case of 'internet experts' snowballing a couple of rare cases of failure into a 'generally inferior' movement?
What I'm interested in is what the problem with the movement is. Old Breguet XXs had Lemania movements, which used to supply many other top watch manufactures, but apparently now Swatch have bought them the movements are now only to be used in Breguet products? (this of course could mean that Breguet now have 'in-house' movements if the Lemania movements are now only to be used by Breguet).
Even with my Google skills I'm finding it difficult to find out exactly what movement is used in the 2000-present Breguet XX. Some searches claim that the Breguet uses the Lemania 1352 movement, others claim that it uses the Lemania 1372 movement. Most sites just repeat the 'Breguet 582 caliber' specification, but many manufactures take other movements, modify them a bit (even if it's just decoration) and give them their own brand's 'caliber' number.
Then I find an article on Timezone where the writer claims the Lemania 1352 is utterly inferior and 'frankly inappropriate' in a Breguet... and responsible for 'clogging servicing channels with malfunctioning Type XX chronographs'. Hmmmm.
Basically I'm after a top-quality sports chrono but I don't want another Daytona or the bulls
t that goes around trying to buy one without a huge premium. Also, despite the supposed chronic lack of supply causing the huge buy-me-now premium, it's not a rare watch and I see someone with one at least every day (forgive me, I work in finance in the city).However I know the Daytona is a tough little bugger, is compact and looks just the right size on my wrist, and took years of daily wear without any aggro whatsoever. I only had it 5 years or so, so serviced it once, but it felt, appeared and acted robust and reliable.
I've fallen for the Breguet - it's IMO more beautiful than the Daytona, it has a date function (an essential complication bizarrely missing in the Rolex), it's the same size and will fit my narrow wrist properly, and Breguet to me is in the top class of watches and well above Rolex - I'd put Breguet up there with Patek, VC, JLC, etc. on history alone. Yeah I know the XX is entry-level and hardly one of their haute horlogerie pieces but I am looking for a sports chrono, after all
The history of Breguet and the love I have for their other traditional watches (especially the tourbillons, which Breguet himself designed, and the beautiful guilloched faces) marks it out to me well above a comparable Zenith, Blancpain and definitely Rolex.There are a couple of Breguet type XXs for sale now, one steel, one titanium, and I'm serious about buying one - but a poster here advised me to go for the Blancpain... and I hear these stories that both watches have unreliable, 'inferior' movements in them. This isn't pocket change for me and I don't have a vast collection of 'special' watches to wear instead, nor an infinite fund to spend on constant servicing / maintenance. I'm just looking for something I can wear daily like my old Daytona, with a service every few years (3-5) - daily wear to me doesn't involve smashing my arms around so I'm not expecting G-Shock strength, but some of these comments s
gging off the movement in the Breguet are spooking me somewhat.Is this yet another case of 'internet experts' snowballing a couple of rare cases of failure into a 'generally inferior' movement?
erasuretim said:
Have you looked at the Vacheron Constantin 'Overseas' range?
Regards
Tim
Yes, was suggested this in the other thread - but I'm not keen on the design - the bezel angularity and overall 'shininess' put me off it. Just a bit too flashy and fussy for my tastes. Good watch though.Regards
Tim
I think you need to handle some of these watches in the flesh (metal) first.
The Brequet's lovely, but did not feel as robust as the Blancpain I already had.
On the movement front, very few places properly make their own.
I was attracted to the Blancpain Flyback as it met all my basic criteria for a watch (automatic, chrono, pref. with date, top quality aesthetic) but was also at the time the thinnest movement of its kind. It still ranks up there I believe, and despite a chunky steel case it's still the slimmest I own (though it's the second heaviest, mostly down to the bracelet which is the best on the market IMO).
The Flyback really is a beautiful, stunning watch. I did have a problem with mine 6mths in where the chrono stopped working, but it was handled well by the factory (included getting a hand written letter from the head honcho) and since that time (around 7.5yrs ago) it has never given me any grief despite getting a *lot* of wear (it's no longer a daily wearer, but was for almost 2yrs. I now try and rotate the use of my watches, otherwise why have them!). It also get some rough treatment at times.
Blancpain use a F.Piquet 1185 movement. I don't think this is as widely used as some others, though I believe AP use it in the Royal Oak chronos (which I know you'd also looked at). Blancpain dress them very nicely, though a std. Flyback doesn't have a see through case back.
I also have a Zenith Class El Primero. Another great watch. Very elegant. Still, I believe, the fastest beating movement and a see through caseback to see it at work. This one has been totally reliable in 6-7yrs of ownership. Only issue is finding one as the modern Zeniths are not my cup of chaa at all.
All of these sorts of watch are relatively delicate machines. It's inevitable that some will experience issues, and the internet really does make it easy for issues to come to the fore. I wonder how many XX's have been made, and you've found 1 comment of one (?) that had an issue (the movement is used in other watches, so I'm not convinced it's fundamentally flawed!).
If you love the watch, why not go for it? Make sure you have another watch to use for when the Brequet needs "servicing" and accept that it may have to be off the road every so often. Make sure you get it from a dealer you can visit in case of issues and job done.
But if you like the style of them, definitely get to hold a Blancpain before laying out good money.
While I'm creating a monologue, the ceramic Fliegerchrono (3705) is a lovely little watch as mentioned in the other thread. Workmanlike as with all IWC's, with the interesting addition of being a proper (not PVD) ceramic unit (and so very, very tough). They are also rare.
The Brequet's lovely, but did not feel as robust as the Blancpain I already had.
On the movement front, very few places properly make their own.
I was attracted to the Blancpain Flyback as it met all my basic criteria for a watch (automatic, chrono, pref. with date, top quality aesthetic) but was also at the time the thinnest movement of its kind. It still ranks up there I believe, and despite a chunky steel case it's still the slimmest I own (though it's the second heaviest, mostly down to the bracelet which is the best on the market IMO).
The Flyback really is a beautiful, stunning watch. I did have a problem with mine 6mths in where the chrono stopped working, but it was handled well by the factory (included getting a hand written letter from the head honcho) and since that time (around 7.5yrs ago) it has never given me any grief despite getting a *lot* of wear (it's no longer a daily wearer, but was for almost 2yrs. I now try and rotate the use of my watches, otherwise why have them!). It also get some rough treatment at times.
Blancpain use a F.Piquet 1185 movement. I don't think this is as widely used as some others, though I believe AP use it in the Royal Oak chronos (which I know you'd also looked at). Blancpain dress them very nicely, though a std. Flyback doesn't have a see through case back.
I also have a Zenith Class El Primero. Another great watch. Very elegant. Still, I believe, the fastest beating movement and a see through caseback to see it at work. This one has been totally reliable in 6-7yrs of ownership. Only issue is finding one as the modern Zeniths are not my cup of chaa at all.
All of these sorts of watch are relatively delicate machines. It's inevitable that some will experience issues, and the internet really does make it easy for issues to come to the fore. I wonder how many XX's have been made, and you've found 1 comment of one (?) that had an issue (the movement is used in other watches, so I'm not convinced it's fundamentally flawed!).
If you love the watch, why not go for it? Make sure you have another watch to use for when the Brequet needs "servicing" and accept that it may have to be off the road every so often. Make sure you get it from a dealer you can visit in case of issues and job done.
But if you like the style of them, definitely get to hold a Blancpain before laying out good money.
While I'm creating a monologue, the ceramic Fliegerchrono (3705) is a lovely little watch as mentioned in the other thread. Workmanlike as with all IWC's, with the interesting addition of being a proper (not PVD) ceramic unit (and so very, very tough). They are also rare.
Like you, I don't know what movement is used in the XX.
I would add to your indecision by saying that I bought a Breguet Marine a couple of years ago and not only is it a thing of beauty, but it's 100% reliable. Perfect time keeping.....
I think the Breguet range is very distinctive and still quite a rare watch to see about.
Murph7355 said:
Captain Chaos said:
How about a JLC Amvox Chrono ?
Class, complication, from a real 'manufacture' and definitely not run of the mill nor too flashy?
Interesting, but the recent fad for car tie ups sickens me a fair bit. Even though they've obviously chosen a classy marque Class, complication, from a real 'manufacture' and definitely not run of the mill nor too flashy?
what about the Girard Perregaux Laureato Evo 3
lots of different versions - face colour combinations and pretty 'reasaonable' if bought off t'internet - wouldn't pay the 8.6k list price.
movement is genuine in house, volumes are low so you are unlikely to see another one and the laureato appears to have a reasonably robust movement.
mine is the same as this - bit cheaper than list. http://www.chronolux.com/catalog/girardperregaux-l...
List
http://www.jurawatches.co.uk/watch.asp?productid=7...
lots of different versions - face colour combinations and pretty 'reasaonable' if bought off t'internet - wouldn't pay the 8.6k list price.
movement is genuine in house, volumes are low so you are unlikely to see another one and the laureato appears to have a reasonably robust movement.
mine is the same as this - bit cheaper than list. http://www.chronolux.com/catalog/girardperregaux-l...
List
http://www.jurawatches.co.uk/watch.asp?productid=7...
Edited by sparkyhx on Thursday 10th April 14:18
Yeah - fair enough, none of the fine chronograph movements are going to take knocks like a G-Shock, and I do have alternatives for when my nicest watch is being serviced. What I was trying to avoid was a watch that had a reputation for fragility, or something that had to be really delicately handled - since this will end up a daily wear.
The XX appears to have used Lemania movements (either 1352 or 1372) since its beginnings as a commissioned piece for the French pilots. Since the watches weren't sold to civilians until fairly recently, and they're still using the same (or evolutions of the same) movement - Swatch's empire encompasses Breguet and Lemania, and apparently now the Lemania factory has 'Montres Breguet' signage, with the intention that Lemania only supply Breguet (and presumably other higher end watches in the Swatch empire) - they can't be that preciously delicate since they were originally military tools.
I suppose that since Breguet are now a subsidiary of Swatch, much like Bentley are a subsidiary of Volkswagen, some of the 'magic' is gone... but much of the appeal of Breguet to me is their history - which will never die. And it does seem that Swatch are bringing the in-house manufacture concept back with the purchase of Lemania and restriction on third party sale of the movements.
A chronograph that constantly needed service would be of little use to a military pilot, after all. That was my only concern - I have no problem with servicing a watch (which is normally fairly expensive) every few years, but something that is in the shop more than once a year starts making the watch a hell of a lot more expensive than the purchase price, and these watches aren't cheap. I want to be paying the premium for quality - not just for a name, or for blingy jewellery.
I am really not keen on the face of the Blancpain - and the fact that they have the thinnest chronograph movement (due to some very clever innovations) apparently makes them *more* delicate than the Lemanias in the Breguets...
Sod it, it's silly to spend too much time bringing rationality into the equation of a fine mechanical watch purchase - it's for the heart only, since if the function was the only criterion, then an atomic-clock-radio-regulated, temperature-compensated quartz chrono would beat any of these mechanical jobbies hands down. The heart says go for the Breguet - so hopefully I'll have one tomorrow
The XX appears to have used Lemania movements (either 1352 or 1372) since its beginnings as a commissioned piece for the French pilots. Since the watches weren't sold to civilians until fairly recently, and they're still using the same (or evolutions of the same) movement - Swatch's empire encompasses Breguet and Lemania, and apparently now the Lemania factory has 'Montres Breguet' signage, with the intention that Lemania only supply Breguet (and presumably other higher end watches in the Swatch empire) - they can't be that preciously delicate since they were originally military tools.
I suppose that since Breguet are now a subsidiary of Swatch, much like Bentley are a subsidiary of Volkswagen, some of the 'magic' is gone... but much of the appeal of Breguet to me is their history - which will never die. And it does seem that Swatch are bringing the in-house manufacture concept back with the purchase of Lemania and restriction on third party sale of the movements.
A chronograph that constantly needed service would be of little use to a military pilot, after all. That was my only concern - I have no problem with servicing a watch (which is normally fairly expensive) every few years, but something that is in the shop more than once a year starts making the watch a hell of a lot more expensive than the purchase price, and these watches aren't cheap. I want to be paying the premium for quality - not just for a name, or for blingy jewellery.
I am really not keen on the face of the Blancpain - and the fact that they have the thinnest chronograph movement (due to some very clever innovations) apparently makes them *more* delicate than the Lemanias in the Breguets...
Sod it, it's silly to spend too much time bringing rationality into the equation of a fine mechanical watch purchase - it's for the heart only, since if the function was the only criterion, then an atomic-clock-radio-regulated, temperature-compensated quartz chrono would beat any of these mechanical jobbies hands down. The heart says go for the Breguet - so hopefully I'll have one tomorrow
cyberface said:
...
Sod it, it's silly to spend too much time bringing rationality into the equation of a fine mechanical watch purchase - it's for the heart only, since if the function was the only criterion, then an atomic-clock-radio-regulated, temperature-compensated quartz chrono would beat any of these mechanical jobbies hands down. The heart says go for the Breguet - so hopefully I'll have one tomorrow
The light has been seen.Sod it, it's silly to spend too much time bringing rationality into the equation of a fine mechanical watch purchase - it's for the heart only, since if the function was the only criterion, then an atomic-clock-radio-regulated, temperature-compensated quartz chrono would beat any of these mechanical jobbies hands down. The heart says go for the Breguet - so hopefully I'll have one tomorrow
Go for it, I'm sure you'll love it.
Pictures needed when the deal is done
Firstly, let's just say that I absolutely *adore* this watch.
However, sitting on the train to get back home after an extremely exhausting week, two guys crash in, one throws his paper onto the table, knocking my glasses onto the floor, no apology as I pick them up. The other barges past to sit next to me. As they chat, pushing and elbowing me, the guy who knocked my glasses onto the floor had a white faced steel Daytona, like my old one.
The bloke sitting next to me who *had* to have his arm on the rest at all costs? A Breguet XX. I've never seen anyone else with one....
They were rude and aggressive, it appears my taste in watches is the same as these types. I'm off to sulk now.
(no, I'm not going to take it that personally or seriously, they may have been drunk (though they both drove home, a BMW X5 4.4 and a BMW 650i) but what are the odds of that?
)
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