“Fully Serviced”
Discussion
I buy relatively frequently used watches, often from dealers. More often than not they are sold “serviced”.
The first thing I do when I receive them is to demag them (most watches I get are magnetised) and then I put them on a timegrapher. I would say that 50% of the time the watches clearly have NOT been serviced, or at least not properly. This sometimes includes watches fresh from manufacturer service centres interestingly.
I bought one from quite a famous dealer last year that had not been serviced for decades, despite being “fully serviced”.
It seems to me that dealers work on the basis that punters won’t know the difference so long as it’s shiny and the hands go round. I however take a longer term view and don’t want to pay to have serviced something that I bought “serviced”.
Today, I went to a retailer to see a fully priced watch (read 2021 price) which looked amazing and had been “fully serviced in house”. I took my time grapher with me and tested it because it’s a big outlay and I don’t want to buy and return. It had not been serviced at all and had an amplitude of 250 (should have been 300+).
I am not sure what percentage of dealers selling watches “serviced” are misleading buyers. But I think it is a lot.
The first thing I do when I receive them is to demag them (most watches I get are magnetised) and then I put them on a timegrapher. I would say that 50% of the time the watches clearly have NOT been serviced, or at least not properly. This sometimes includes watches fresh from manufacturer service centres interestingly.
I bought one from quite a famous dealer last year that had not been serviced for decades, despite being “fully serviced”.
It seems to me that dealers work on the basis that punters won’t know the difference so long as it’s shiny and the hands go round. I however take a longer term view and don’t want to pay to have serviced something that I bought “serviced”.
Today, I went to a retailer to see a fully priced watch (read 2021 price) which looked amazing and had been “fully serviced in house”. I took my time grapher with me and tested it because it’s a big outlay and I don’t want to buy and return. It had not been serviced at all and had an amplitude of 250 (should have been 300+).
I am not sure what percentage of dealers selling watches “serviced” are misleading buyers. But I think it is a lot.
SlimJim16v said:
They can go out of adjustment from being thrown around in the post.
Never known that to happen. Magnetised yes, but outside of that nothing that would affect rate or amplitude. If a watch in a padded box could be knocked out of adjustment, can you imagine what it would be like "naked" on the wrist.popeyewhite said:
I've thought about this.
And how long between services?
Patek advertised as 2014 model, serviced 2024 by non Patek 'in-house expert'. Good enough?
While here I'll have a whinge: £22k Patek "will need a new strap". Seriously?
I think the strap might tell you all you need to know.And how long between services?
Patek advertised as 2014 model, serviced 2024 by non Patek 'in-house expert'. Good enough?
While here I'll have a whinge: £22k Patek "will need a new strap". Seriously?
But, before you write it off, take a look at it on a time grapher. If it looks serviced I'd consider it. If not I'd want it cheap enough to get a PP seervice.
For me, a manufacturer service "launders" a watch.
Louis Balfour said:
I think the strap might tell you all you need to know.
But, before you write it off, take a look at it on a time grapher. If it looks serviced I'd consider it. If not I'd want it cheap enough to get a PP seervice.
For me, a manufacturer service "launders" a watch.
Yes I know what you mean. Unless a lot of time has passed since a watch's manufacturer service I'd prefer a dealer just to leave it.But, before you write it off, take a look at it on a time grapher. If it looks serviced I'd consider it. If not I'd want it cheap enough to get a PP seervice.
For me, a manufacturer service "launders" a watch.
popeyewhite said:
Louis Balfour said:
I think the strap might tell you all you need to know.
But, before you write it off, take a look at it on a time grapher. If it looks serviced I'd consider it. If not I'd want it cheap enough to get a PP seervice.
For me, a manufacturer service "launders" a watch.
Yes I know what you mean. Unless a lot of time has passed since a watch's manufacturer service I'd prefer a dealer just to leave it.But, before you write it off, take a look at it on a time grapher. If it looks serviced I'd consider it. If not I'd want it cheap enough to get a PP seervice.
For me, a manufacturer service "launders" a watch.
I agree more than I disagree but would add caveats. I look at a lot of things on ebay that are "fully serviced" where it's clear they mean "bought at auction, have polished it a bit and put it in an ultrasonic tank".
That said, a some watches that were fully serviced a year or two ago could well be doing 250 if they've been sitting around for a while and there are few watches that I'd say "should" be doing 300. None I can think of have 300 as a minimum at full wind and a for a few would be veering on too high. It's pretty caliber dependent and you get variation even within calibers.
So yeah, I definitely think you're right that there are a lot of chancers out there doing poor work and calling it serviced, and sure if you have a watch smashing out 300 degrees amplitude and running within COSC it's a good one. But some watches are much more tolerant of amplitude change than others and the more important metrics are timing and power reserve and, of course, how well it was serviced in the first place.
You could oil some things blind drunk with a paint brush and they'll still work just fine for a while (Valjoux 7750's in particular are tanks), but other watches demand great attention to get anywhere near good timekeeping. Good servicing should last for years & thin/fine watches are especially setup sensitive.
Vintage watches can often be serviced beautifully and still seem way off by modern standards, but they're also victims of decades worth of odge watchmaking so a simple amplitude reading won't give you a full story. Also some calibers just aren't great timekeepers regardless of how they're set up.
So yeah, I guess that's where "buy the seller" comes from. For more uncommon brands like JLC, Patek, Vacheron, etc "in house" servicing is also going to run into the parts supply problem. If something is worn and they can't buy it from the manufacturer what do they do? Put it back in & hope for the best?
Same with cars too I guess. I've seen so many really nice expensive watches serviced/ruined by total amateurs that it does make me wonder how many Ferrari 360's, etc, must be patched up dogs.
That said, a some watches that were fully serviced a year or two ago could well be doing 250 if they've been sitting around for a while and there are few watches that I'd say "should" be doing 300. None I can think of have 300 as a minimum at full wind and a for a few would be veering on too high. It's pretty caliber dependent and you get variation even within calibers.
So yeah, I definitely think you're right that there are a lot of chancers out there doing poor work and calling it serviced, and sure if you have a watch smashing out 300 degrees amplitude and running within COSC it's a good one. But some watches are much more tolerant of amplitude change than others and the more important metrics are timing and power reserve and, of course, how well it was serviced in the first place.
You could oil some things blind drunk with a paint brush and they'll still work just fine for a while (Valjoux 7750's in particular are tanks), but other watches demand great attention to get anywhere near good timekeeping. Good servicing should last for years & thin/fine watches are especially setup sensitive.
Vintage watches can often be serviced beautifully and still seem way off by modern standards, but they're also victims of decades worth of odge watchmaking so a simple amplitude reading won't give you a full story. Also some calibers just aren't great timekeepers regardless of how they're set up.
So yeah, I guess that's where "buy the seller" comes from. For more uncommon brands like JLC, Patek, Vacheron, etc "in house" servicing is also going to run into the parts supply problem. If something is worn and they can't buy it from the manufacturer what do they do? Put it back in & hope for the best?
Same with cars too I guess. I've seen so many really nice expensive watches serviced/ruined by total amateurs that it does make me wonder how many Ferrari 360's, etc, must be patched up dogs.
Edited by glazbagun on Sunday 15th September 03:07
glazbagun said:
I agree more than I disagree but would add caveats. I look at a lot of things on ebay that are "fully serviced" where it's clear they mean "bought at auction, have polished it a bit and put it in an ultrasonic tank".
That said, a some watches that were fully serviced a year or two ago could well be doing 250 if they've been sitting around for a while and there are few watches that I'd say "should" be doing 300. None I can think of have 300 as a minimum at full wind and a for a few would be veering on too high. It's pretty caliber dependent and you get variation even within calibers.
So yeah, I definitely think you're right that there are a lot of chancers out there doing poor work and calling it serviced, and sure if you have a watch smashing out 300 degrees amplitude and running within COSC it's a good one. But some watches are much more tolerant of amplitude change than others and the more important metrics are timing and power reserve and, of course, how well it was serviced in the first place.
You could oil some things blind drunk with a paint brush and they'll still work just fine for a while (Valjoux 7750's in particular are tanks), but other watches demand great attention to get anywhere near good timekeeping. Good servicing should last for years & thin/fine watches are especially setup sensitive.
Vintage watches can often be serviced beautifully and still seem way off by modern standards, but they're also victims of decades worth of odge watchmaking so a simple amplitude reading won't give you a full story. Also some calibers just aren't great timekeepers regardless of how they're set up.
So yeah, I guess that's where "buy the seller" comes from. For more uncommon brands like JLC, Patek, Vacheron, etc "in house" servicing is also going to run into the parts supply problem. If something is worn and they can't buy it from the manufacturer what do they do? Put it back in & hope for the best?
Same with cars too I guess. I've seen so many really nice expensive watches serviced/ruined by total amateurs that it does make me wonder how many Ferrari 360's, etc, must be patched up dogs.
Interesting points.That said, a some watches that were fully serviced a year or two ago could well be doing 250 if they've been sitting around for a while and there are few watches that I'd say "should" be doing 300. None I can think of have 300 as a minimum at full wind and a for a few would be veering on too high. It's pretty caliber dependent and you get variation even within calibers.
So yeah, I definitely think you're right that there are a lot of chancers out there doing poor work and calling it serviced, and sure if you have a watch smashing out 300 degrees amplitude and running within COSC it's a good one. But some watches are much more tolerant of amplitude change than others and the more important metrics are timing and power reserve and, of course, how well it was serviced in the first place.
You could oil some things blind drunk with a paint brush and they'll still work just fine for a while (Valjoux 7750's in particular are tanks), but other watches demand great attention to get anywhere near good timekeeping. Good servicing should last for years & thin/fine watches are especially setup sensitive.
Vintage watches can often be serviced beautifully and still seem way off by modern standards, but they're also victims of decades worth of odge watchmaking so a simple amplitude reading won't give you a full story. Also some calibers just aren't great timekeepers regardless of how they're set up.
So yeah, I guess that's where "buy the seller" comes from. For more uncommon brands like JLC, Patek, Vacheron, etc "in house" servicing is also going to run into the parts supply problem. If something is worn and they can't buy it from the manufacturer what do they do? Put it back in & hope for the best?
Same with cars too I guess. I've seen so many really nice expensive watches serviced/ruined by total amateurs that it does make me wonder how many Ferrari 360's, etc, must be patched up dogs.
Edited by glazbagun on Sunday 15th September 03:07
An observation: I have owned a lot of watches that have sat around and it never seems to have impacted upon amplitude.
I have just put up for sale a JLC that I haven't worn for yonks. 310 degrees of amplitude. My Rolexes that I soid a couple of years ago, again unused for some time. No change in amplitude.
How would you read a Rolex 3155 doing 260 with a bear error of 0.8? To me that isn't screaming "I've just been serviced".
TL:DR is that I reckon it has either taken a knock or been serviced at some point but not very well. Had it never been serviced ever it would have lower beat error.
Beat error is what stands out to me there.
Noone trying to do a decent job services a modern watch with a beat adjuster(and by modern I mean past 40 years. Maybe past 60 years) with that large a beat error when the watch is flat.
On really old vintage pieces or some calibers with old origins it's harder to get just right as the only way to adjust it was to manipulate the friction coupling (collet) between the hairspring and the balance staff itself. It's fiddly and time consuming and I would be more understanding of a new watchmaker being wary of the job, even it it's still too high
But a Rolex 3155's it's easier than changing the rate!
You're unlikely to get something that's 0.0 in all positions as gravity pulls the balance and hairspring around, but dial up/ down is your starting point so if it's doing that it's probably worse in some other position.
It could have changed due to a knock (on 3155 this is less likely but can still happen) but Rolex specify 0.5 max beat error in any position and aiming for 0.0 in the flat is just what you try even if 0.2 is plenty good enough.
The bear error could be affecting the amplitude (if knocked or magnetized) but the main reason there are limits is to allow self-starting if the watch stops for any reason..
Amplitude is lower than you'd ideally want and too low for some calibers but the test is if it can run for 24 hours and not drop below 200 in its worst position. If it can, then it isn't a problem even if you might want more. I have seen some watches that have barely scraped 260 at full wind and keep great time but plenty that don't and it certainly wouldn't make me assume the watch was recently serviced, but they do exist.
It's worth bearing in mind that numbers are just metrics assigned as shorthand for watch performance so some do behave differently from others.
Old rolexes (like 1535) can have less than 260 in the flat and be perfectly fine (or not, of course)- they were made before we had timing machines to measure amplitude and it would be judged by eye). OTOH I've seen new Sellita calibers smashing out 300 in a hanging position which would have me checking my machine on another watch!
So while I can't condemn a watch on a single metric, and almost anything Rolex can be fixed, I'd say you're right to be wary & it would knock my confidence that it was recently well serviced. If it had good beat error I'd be less certain. It's not a champion but 260 flat on some Rolexes won't have bad timekeeping or terrible power reserve.
As an aside some watches (ETA2824 comes to mind) hit higher ampllitudes with auto-wind than they do manually and manual wind watches will have abnormally high amplitude at absolute full wind due to the way manual mainsprings work.
Beat error is what stands out to me there.
Noone trying to do a decent job services a modern watch with a beat adjuster(and by modern I mean past 40 years. Maybe past 60 years) with that large a beat error when the watch is flat.
On really old vintage pieces or some calibers with old origins it's harder to get just right as the only way to adjust it was to manipulate the friction coupling (collet) between the hairspring and the balance staff itself. It's fiddly and time consuming and I would be more understanding of a new watchmaker being wary of the job, even it it's still too high
But a Rolex 3155's it's easier than changing the rate!
You're unlikely to get something that's 0.0 in all positions as gravity pulls the balance and hairspring around, but dial up/ down is your starting point so if it's doing that it's probably worse in some other position.
It could have changed due to a knock (on 3155 this is less likely but can still happen) but Rolex specify 0.5 max beat error in any position and aiming for 0.0 in the flat is just what you try even if 0.2 is plenty good enough.
The bear error could be affecting the amplitude (if knocked or magnetized) but the main reason there are limits is to allow self-starting if the watch stops for any reason..
Amplitude is lower than you'd ideally want and too low for some calibers but the test is if it can run for 24 hours and not drop below 200 in its worst position. If it can, then it isn't a problem even if you might want more. I have seen some watches that have barely scraped 260 at full wind and keep great time but plenty that don't and it certainly wouldn't make me assume the watch was recently serviced, but they do exist.
It's worth bearing in mind that numbers are just metrics assigned as shorthand for watch performance so some do behave differently from others.
Old rolexes (like 1535) can have less than 260 in the flat and be perfectly fine (or not, of course)- they were made before we had timing machines to measure amplitude and it would be judged by eye). OTOH I've seen new Sellita calibers smashing out 300 in a hanging position which would have me checking my machine on another watch!
So while I can't condemn a watch on a single metric, and almost anything Rolex can be fixed, I'd say you're right to be wary & it would knock my confidence that it was recently well serviced. If it had good beat error I'd be less certain. It's not a champion but 260 flat on some Rolexes won't have bad timekeeping or terrible power reserve.
As an aside some watches (ETA2824 comes to mind) hit higher ampllitudes with auto-wind than they do manually and manual wind watches will have abnormally high amplitude at absolute full wind due to the way manual mainsprings work.
Edited by glazbagun on Sunday 15th September 11:27
glazbagun said:
TL:DR is that I reckon it has either taken a knock or been serviced at some point but not very well. Had it never been serviced ever it would have higher beat error.
Beat error is what stands out to me there.
Noone trying to do a decent job services a modern watch with a beat adjuster(and by modern I mean past 40 years. Maybe past 60 years) with that large a beat error when the watch is flat.
On really old vintage pieces or some calibers with old origins it's harder to get just right as the only way to adjust it was to manipulate the friction coupling (collet) between the hairspring and the balance staff itself. It's fiddly and time consuming and I would be more understanding of a new watchmaker being wary of the job, even it it's still too high
But a Rolex 3155's it's easier than changing the rate!
You're unlikely to get something that's 0.0 in all positions as gravity pulls the balance and hairspring around, but dial up/ down is your starting point so if it's doing that it's probably worse in some other position.
It could have changed due to a knock (on 3155 this is less likely but can still happen) but Rolex specify 0.5 max beat error in any position and aiming for 0.0 in the flat is just what you try even if 0.2 is plenty good enough.
The bear error could be affecting the amplitude (if knocked or magnetized) but the main reason there are limits is to allow self-starting if the watch stops for any reason..
Amplitude is low and personally I'd say too low. It should be able to run for 24 hours and not drop below 200 in its worst position. I have seen some watches that have managed to scrape that and keep great time but plenty that don't and it certainly wouldn't make me assume the watch was recently serviced.
So while I can't condemn a watch on a single metric, and almost anything Rolex can be fixed, I'd say you're right to be wary & it would knock my confidence that it was recently well serviced.
As an aside some watches (ETA2824 comes to mind) hit higher ampllitudes with auto-wind than they do manually and manual wind watches will have abnormally high amplitude at absolute full wind due to the way manual mainsprings work.
Thanks for this.Beat error is what stands out to me there.
Noone trying to do a decent job services a modern watch with a beat adjuster(and by modern I mean past 40 years. Maybe past 60 years) with that large a beat error when the watch is flat.
On really old vintage pieces or some calibers with old origins it's harder to get just right as the only way to adjust it was to manipulate the friction coupling (collet) between the hairspring and the balance staff itself. It's fiddly and time consuming and I would be more understanding of a new watchmaker being wary of the job, even it it's still too high
But a Rolex 3155's it's easier than changing the rate!
You're unlikely to get something that's 0.0 in all positions as gravity pulls the balance and hairspring around, but dial up/ down is your starting point so if it's doing that it's probably worse in some other position.
It could have changed due to a knock (on 3155 this is less likely but can still happen) but Rolex specify 0.5 max beat error in any position and aiming for 0.0 in the flat is just what you try even if 0.2 is plenty good enough.
The bear error could be affecting the amplitude (if knocked or magnetized) but the main reason there are limits is to allow self-starting if the watch stops for any reason..
Amplitude is low and personally I'd say too low. It should be able to run for 24 hours and not drop below 200 in its worst position. I have seen some watches that have managed to scrape that and keep great time but plenty that don't and it certainly wouldn't make me assume the watch was recently serviced.
So while I can't condemn a watch on a single metric, and almost anything Rolex can be fixed, I'd say you're right to be wary & it would knock my confidence that it was recently well serviced.
As an aside some watches (ETA2824 comes to mind) hit higher ampllitudes with auto-wind than they do manually and manual wind watches will have abnormally high amplitude at absolute full wind due to the way manual mainsprings work.
The rate was actually around +3 across all positions, so someone less anal than me would buy it and think it was great, no doubt.
I have bid the dealer the right price based upon it needing a service. He has declined. I might go back to him in a few weeks if something better doesn't pop up and increase a bit.
I shoild point out a typo in my TL:DR. Beat error would ve lower, not higher, if it was never serviced. You want 0.0 but anything less than 0.5 is fine.
I've made some other clarifications in my post as for some reason I had "250" amplitude in my head.
It could be that the dealer has had it serviced, but not by someone who has worked for manufacturers if they let 0.8 out the door.
Amplitude isn't "it's junk" low, but if I was handed it I'd be biased towards assuming it needed a service as opposed to assuming it had just been done.
Shame you can't see the movement!
I've made some other clarifications in my post as for some reason I had "250" amplitude in my head.
It could be that the dealer has had it serviced, but not by someone who has worked for manufacturers if they let 0.8 out the door.
Amplitude isn't "it's junk" low, but if I was handed it I'd be biased towards assuming it needed a service as opposed to assuming it had just been done.
Shame you can't see the movement!
glazbagun said:
I shoild point out a typo in my TL:DR. Beat error would ve lower, not higher, if it was never serviced. You want 0.0 but anything less than 0.5 is fine.
I've made some other clarifications in my post as for some reason I had "250" amplitude in my head.
It could be that the dealer has had it serviced, but not by someone who has worked for manufacturers if they let 0.8 out the door.
Amplitude isn't "it's junk" low, but if I was handed it I'd be biased towards assuming it needed a service as opposed to assuming it had just been done.
Shame you can't see the movement!
I think we are reading from the same page.I've made some other clarifications in my post as for some reason I had "250" amplitude in my head.
It could be that the dealer has had it serviced, but not by someone who has worked for manufacturers if they let 0.8 out the door.
Amplitude isn't "it's junk" low, but if I was handed it I'd be biased towards assuming it needed a service as opposed to assuming it had just been done.
Shame you can't see the movement!
If I am paying five figures for a watch and I am being told it has been serviced I expect better than 0.8 and 260 from that sort of watch.
There is another I am watching that is unpolished and "serviced in house" but it is priced suitably that I could return it to Rolex for a service.
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