Mind broadened by Zenith
Discussion
Chasing around for a watch for my wife, I had a long chat with one old established watch retailer, Rob from KC Watches, who told me that amongst those "in the know" Zenith had the finest movements of any watchmaker.
So I had a mooch on Chrono24 and a couple took my fancy, for me...
I guess I'll have to do some more research to find out which have the better automatic movement, but they do make a refreshing change from the plethora of Rolexes everyone is always discussing as the "best choice".
So I had a mooch on Chrono24 and a couple took my fancy, for me...
I guess I'll have to do some more research to find out which have the better automatic movement, but they do make a refreshing change from the plethora of Rolexes everyone is always discussing as the "best choice".
The El Primero is a great movement, but not really any more special than any other historically reliable and well-built chrono from Valjoux or Lemania.
Zenith is trying to move back upmarket. Even as recently as 4-5 months ago, you could get old El-Pr. Rainbows for around EUR 1k. I almost bought one.
The recent price jump is marketing based, and all the affordable but quality brands were relatively equal back in the day.
Zenith is trying to move back upmarket. Even as recently as 4-5 months ago, you could get old El-Pr. Rainbows for around EUR 1k. I almost bought one.
The recent price jump is marketing based, and all the affordable but quality brands were relatively equal back in the day.
Edited by scherzkeks on Thursday 4th May 12:08
Had a Zenith EP 'Original 1969' re-edition... Like a mini (38mm) Striking 10th. Beautiful watch
Too small for me and wasn't getting worn so was sold to fund my 106 XSi rebuild project at a healthy profit (£500) after 3yrs.
Great watches and seem inexplicably underrated. I think they're now through the awkward design era.
Too small for me and wasn't getting worn so was sold to fund my 106 XSi rebuild project at a healthy profit (£500) after 3yrs.
Great watches and seem inexplicably underrated. I think they're now through the awkward design era.
dom9 said:
Had a Zenith EP 'Original 1969' re-edition... Like a mini (38mm) Striking 10th. Beautiful watch
Too small for me and wasn't getting worn so was sold to fund my 106 XSi rebuild project at a healthy profit (£500) after 3yrs.
Great watches and seem inexplicably underrated. I think they're now through the awkward design era.
I've got one of those! Too small for me and wasn't getting worn so was sold to fund my 106 XSi rebuild project at a healthy profit (£500) after 3yrs.
Great watches and seem inexplicably underrated. I think they're now through the awkward design era.
dom9 said:
I'm sure we stalk each other whilst watch shopping, Don!
Haven't bought anything in 3yrs now though
Back to cars now I'm living in the UK with a garage!
HA! Nooooo, I've got one from the awkward era not from the tasteful era!Haven't bought anything in 3yrs now though
Back to cars now I'm living in the UK with a garage!
I am getting a bit obsessed with Coke GMTs though, you still have yours?
Now that does sound stalkerish, God knows when you mentioned that you had / have one!
LOL - I do still have it!
Virtually unworn since its service 3yrs back...
I can see a world where my SD is the only watch I have....
Back on topic; Zenith is a big 'yes' from me (not that that should sway anyone). Some really 'classic' designs these days and beautiful movements, often shown off through the case back.
Virtually unworn since its service 3yrs back...
I can see a world where my SD is the only watch I have....
Back on topic; Zenith is a big 'yes' from me (not that that should sway anyone). Some really 'classic' designs these days and beautiful movements, often shown off through the case back.
dom9 said:
LOL - I do still have it!
Virtually unworn since its service 3yrs back...
I can see a world where my SD is the only watch I have....
Back on topic; Zenith is a big 'yes' from me (not that that should sway anyone). Some really 'classic' designs these days and beautiful movements, often shown off through the case back.
Well if you're going to have one watch an SD is a great thing to have, clean look of no cyclops like a no date Sub but with a twist!Virtually unworn since its service 3yrs back...
I can see a world where my SD is the only watch I have....
Back on topic; Zenith is a big 'yes' from me (not that that should sway anyone). Some really 'classic' designs these days and beautiful movements, often shown off through the case back.
Yes, back to Zenith, everyone I've met in the watch retail world (not zenith dealers) and watch nerds have enormous respect for the quality of the watches!
I think they are the only brand to have the right to put "Pilot" on their dials
That's either obscure trivia or bullls
t, apologies if it's the latter!DJMC said:
I read today that Zenith are in the premier league whilst Rolex are 5th division. I'm liking that. A brand Joe public, nor a Rolex AD salesperson, has heard of but may be "better".
Neither statement is correct though. I can only assume it was written by somebody with a vested interest in Zenith.The premier league would feature makers such as Philippe Dufour and George Daniels and as good as Zenith are, they are not even close to that level.
It was this one: http://www.devonbuy.com/watch-brand-hierarchy/
He does admit the order may change and is only his opinion.
Some food for debate?
He does admit the order may change and is only his opinion.
Some food for debate?
DJMC said:
It was this one: http://www.devonbuy.com/watch-brand-hierarchy/
He does admit the order may change and is only his opinion.
Some food for debate?
It does seem a generally well considered list (nice to see Moser listed alongside the top-tier makers) but I don't understand the reason for the distinction between tier 1 and 1a, or more specifically why 1 is higher than 1a. History is one thing but surely the important thing is quality and some of the makers in tier 1a are artists at the top of their craft and their pieces are true masterpieces.He does admit the order may change and is only his opinion.
Some food for debate?
I would take a Simplicity over any timepiece, regardless of cost.
There was a similar thread on here about hierarchy of brands, everyone has differing and interesting views but the list in the link above is comical.
Independence is one of the main assessment criteria yet half of the brands in the top tiers are richemont or lvmh owned.
I know we have a few bremont lovers/owners lurking waiting to pipe up but seriously, Bremont on par with watchmakers such as George Daniels and FP Journe? Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that.
Independence is one of the main assessment criteria yet half of the brands in the top tiers are richemont or lvmh owned.
I know we have a few bremont lovers/owners lurking waiting to pipe up but seriously, Bremont on par with watchmakers such as George Daniels and FP Journe? Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that.
7184c said:
There was a similar thread on here about hierarchy of brands, everyone has differing and interesting views but the list in the link above is comical.
Independence is one of the main assessment criteria yet half of the brands in the top tiers are richemont or lvmh owned.
I know we have a few bremont lovers/owners lurking waiting to pipe up but seriously, Bremont on par with watchmakers such as George Daniels and FP Journe? Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that.
This.Independence is one of the main assessment criteria yet half of the brands in the top tiers are richemont or lvmh owned.
I know we have a few bremont lovers/owners lurking waiting to pipe up but seriously, Bremont on par with watchmakers such as George Daniels and FP Journe? Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that.
As much as people may love to hate on Rolex and promote Tudor; there is clearly a big distinction between Rolex and it's sub-brand.
Seiko down there towards the bottom? Did I miss Grand Seiko up at the top/ a distinction not being made (See Rolex/ Tudor or LVMH brands)?
Hublot seems pretty high up too. Chanel/ Cartier I have always seen as Fashion brands with the odd, interesting innovation.
I am sure he has his reasons for all of those choices but there's surely a few there that have to be 'wrong' by any measure?
7184c said:
I know we have a few bremont lovers/owners lurking waiting to pipe up but seriously, Bremont on par with watchmakers such as George Daniels and FP Journe? Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that.
I didn't see Bremont in there. That is, as you say, ridiculous. No mention of Credor either, surely a contender for the top spot?
DJMC – I absolutely agree with & encourage your Zenith research efforts, but if you’re planning to spend thousands of pounds off the back of it, I would respectfully recommend that you exercise a little more discernment in your sources – alongside his watch codswallop, this chap has articles about his collection of HP Calculators, some crystals metaphysics mumbo-jumbo and a scholarly article about the seminal TV show ‘Beverly Hills 90210’.
It’s virtually impossible to compile any such list that everyone might agree upon. Quite apart from the personal subjective element, those brands are all operating for different purposes. It’s like saying a BMW is better than a Morgan – they’re both cars, but otherwise completely different animals.
However, even allowing for that, this list is a particular steaming pile of nonsense.
His criteria are risible:
- ‘Choice of ambassadors and related contribution to society’ – am I expected to favour Breitling just because they keep John Travolta in a
bewildering array of hair pieces?
- ‘Representation at watch shop tier level’ – what does that have to do with the quality of a watch? I can’t buy a Damien Hirst at Argos, so does
that mean his work is crap?
- ‘Involvement in social activities such as sports and charity events’ – Are we awarding Scouts Badges or compiling the Queen’s Honours List?
Does Cliff Richard rank above Keith Richards because he’s a nice chap who does a free sing-along at Wimbledon every year?
Zenith are a very fine maker of watches, but no more akin to A Lange & Sohne than a dog is to a giraffe.
As stated by 7184c already, George Daniels was a technical innovator who made entire watches by hand on the Isle of Man; Philippe Dufour represents arguably the pinnacle of finishing, and F.P. Journe is an exemplar of in-house, complicated movements with superior finishing. I have no axe to grind with Bremont - they are a good British company making very nice watches using bought-in, off-the-shelf (but quality) movements , but even they would fall about the place in laughter at the thought of keeping company with the aforementioned.
Seiko are arguably the greatest watch company on the planet, and they & their subsidiaries – Grand Seiko, Credor, Orient – have such varied output that they could arguably take a slot in pretty-much every single one of those tiers (including alongside the so-called ‘big three’ of PP, AP & VC), so it’s mental to place them on the same level as Jorg Gray – a company retailing bog-standard watches with dirt cheap quartz movements at a rip-off price point, living off the fact that Barack Obama once wore one he was gifted by his security team.
Omega & Rolex are giants of watchmaking , and they are ranked alongside U-Boat? Please.
It’s virtually impossible to compile any such list that everyone might agree upon. Quite apart from the personal subjective element, those brands are all operating for different purposes. It’s like saying a BMW is better than a Morgan – they’re both cars, but otherwise completely different animals.
However, even allowing for that, this list is a particular steaming pile of nonsense.
His criteria are risible:
- ‘Choice of ambassadors and related contribution to society’ – am I expected to favour Breitling just because they keep John Travolta in a
bewildering array of hair pieces?
- ‘Representation at watch shop tier level’ – what does that have to do with the quality of a watch? I can’t buy a Damien Hirst at Argos, so does
that mean his work is crap?
- ‘Involvement in social activities such as sports and charity events’ – Are we awarding Scouts Badges or compiling the Queen’s Honours List?
Does Cliff Richard rank above Keith Richards because he’s a nice chap who does a free sing-along at Wimbledon every year?
Zenith are a very fine maker of watches, but no more akin to A Lange & Sohne than a dog is to a giraffe.
As stated by 7184c already, George Daniels was a technical innovator who made entire watches by hand on the Isle of Man; Philippe Dufour represents arguably the pinnacle of finishing, and F.P. Journe is an exemplar of in-house, complicated movements with superior finishing. I have no axe to grind with Bremont - they are a good British company making very nice watches using bought-in, off-the-shelf (but quality) movements , but even they would fall about the place in laughter at the thought of keeping company with the aforementioned.
Seiko are arguably the greatest watch company on the planet, and they & their subsidiaries – Grand Seiko, Credor, Orient – have such varied output that they could arguably take a slot in pretty-much every single one of those tiers (including alongside the so-called ‘big three’ of PP, AP & VC), so it’s mental to place them on the same level as Jorg Gray – a company retailing bog-standard watches with dirt cheap quartz movements at a rip-off price point, living off the fact that Barack Obama once wore one he was gifted by his security team.
Omega & Rolex are giants of watchmaking , and they are ranked alongside U-Boat? Please.
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