Legality of selling fake watches?
Discussion
I was having a quick browse for watches on Scumtree and I noticed there were quote a lot of fake high end watches such as Rolex. Most of these were obviously fake and listed as £40-£100. Some though were described as "genuine" with a higher price but still way below market value. i.e. Tidy looking "Genuine" Submariner with box and certificates for £1000.
Is it ilegal to sell ANY fake watch on Gumtree, or only if you are pretending that the watch is genuine?
It makes me feel sad that someone might spend some real money on this tat.
Is it ilegal to sell ANY fake watch on Gumtree, or only if you are pretending that the watch is genuine?
It makes me feel sad that someone might spend some real money on this tat.
FreeLitres said:
I was having a quick browse for watches on Scumtree and I noticed there were quote a lot of fake high end watches such as Rolex. Most of these were obviously fake and listed as £40-£100. Some though were described as "genuine" with a higher price but still way below market value. i.e. Tidy looking "Genuine" Submariner with box and certificates for £1000.
Is it ilegal to sell ANY fake watch on Gumtree, or only if you are pretending that the watch is genuine?
It makes me feel sad that someone might spend some real money on this tat.
Yes, completely illegal to sell anything to a UK customer that is fake or a copy, even if they are advertised as such. They also have no control whatsoever on the materials used in the coatings and finishes so you could end up with a green wrist, or even mercury poisoning.Is it ilegal to sell ANY fake watch on Gumtree, or only if you are pretending that the watch is genuine?
It makes me feel sad that someone might spend some real money on this tat.
Gumtree is owned by eBay, of which the latter is not particularly good at removing listings for fake watches ... even if lots of people report it! As with anything, buyer beware - You're taking a risk in buying a watch via eBay. Research the seller (as best as possible) and ask others on here/TZ-UK to confirm whether the watch is genuine/fake, although that's still no guarantee. However if the price is too good to be true, it usually is.
Personally, for stuff that's easily replicated, I'd probably buy through known sources ... ADs, second hand dealers, TZ-UK forums (to a degree).
But yes, selling a fake watch is illegal. Homages are different though!
Personally, for stuff that's easily replicated, I'd probably buy through known sources ... ADs, second hand dealers, TZ-UK forums (to a degree).
But yes, selling a fake watch is illegal. Homages are different though!
Lorne said:
FreeLitres said:
I was having a quick browse for watches on Scumtree and I noticed there were quote a lot of fake high end watches such as Rolex. Most of these were obviously fake and listed as £40-£100. Some though were described as "genuine" with a higher price but still way below market value. i.e. Tidy looking "Genuine" Submariner with box and certificates for £1000.
Is it ilegal to sell ANY fake watch on Gumtree, or only if you are pretending that the watch is genuine?
It makes me feel sad that someone might spend some real money on this tat.
Yes, completely illegal to sell anything to a UK customer that is fake or a copy, even if they are advertised as such. They also have no control whatsoever on the materials used in the coatings and finishes so you could end up with a green wrist, or even mercury poisoning.Is it ilegal to sell ANY fake watch on Gumtree, or only if you are pretending that the watch is genuine?
It makes me feel sad that someone might spend some real money on this tat.
In the UK
It is illegal to manufacture, distribute and sell counterfeit goods.
The quirk of the law is that it is not illegal to buy or possess counterfeit goods.
Personally I think we should adopt the French counterfeit law.
Fakes are illegal, that's it, full stop
Caught making, selling or even owning fake anything can lead to destruction of the goods, heavy fines and even a custodial sentence
It is illegal to manufacture, distribute and sell counterfeit goods.
The quirk of the law is that it is not illegal to buy or possess counterfeit goods.
Personally I think we should adopt the French counterfeit law.
Fakes are illegal, that's it, full stop
Caught making, selling or even owning fake anything can lead to destruction of the goods, heavy fines and even a custodial sentence
bobbybee said:
Personally I think we should adopt the French counterfeit law.
Fakes are illegal, that's it, full stop
Caught making, selling or even owning fake anything can lead to destruction of the goods, heavy fines and even a custodial sentence
If that happened we'd have to open new landfill sites to hold all the car salesmens' fake watches.Fakes are illegal, that's it, full stop
Caught making, selling or even owning fake anything can lead to destruction of the goods, heavy fines and even a custodial sentence
bobbybee said:
Caught making, selling or even owning fake anything can lead to destruction of the goods, heavy fines and even a custodial sentence
Hypothetically speaking, would these be a clause for people who honestly did not know? What happens if they purchased a fake super replica at a price not too dissimilar to that of the genuine article? There are super-rep Hublot models that have fooled Hublot ADs. I believe a quick check of the movement did not verify it's authenticity either! Ikemi said:
Hypothetically speaking, would these be a clause for people who honestly did not know? What happens if they purchased a fake super replica at a price not too dissimilar to that of the genuine article? There are super-rep Hublot models that have fooled Hublot ADs. I believe a quick check of the movement did not verify it's authenticity either!
No, no clause as in the law ignorance is not a valid defencelostkiwi said:
Just checked and yes you are correct. If it is branded with the original trademark then they are illegal to be sold but if they have no trademark or a different trademark its perfectly acceptable.
If the fake item does not carry the trademark it is not counterfeit is it?That's just a copy of design, which can lead to lawsuits of their own arguing the theft of IP
bobbybee said:
Ikemi said:
Hypothetically speaking, would these be a clause for people who honestly did not know? What happens if they purchased a fake super replica at a price not too dissimilar to that of the genuine article? There are super-rep Hublot models that have fooled Hublot ADs. I believe a quick check of the movement did not verify it's authenticity either!
No, no clause as in the law ignorance is not a valid defenceSome years ago a guy was jailed in Belgium for wearing a fake Rolex but he admitted he knew it was fake. More recently in Italy, tourists have been fined €1000 for buying fake designer handbags but the point was made that buying off street vendors for a few Euros made it obvious they were fakes.
bobbybee said:
lostkiwi said:
Thats not how I understand it. I was under the impression it was legal to sell replicas as long as they were described as such and not palmed off as real.
But they are not replicas they are FAKEAs for Replica vs Fake thats for another thread.
It's not quite as straightforward as bobbybee suggests.
Trade mark offences come under the Trade Marks Act 1994 and only apply to people using trade marks "in the course of trade", so private sales aren't an offence. The chances are that every one of those listings on Gumtree will claim to be private sellers (whether or not they are) so before establishing an offence you'd also hae to establish that they were trading.
You could also argue that the Act may not apply to the obvious fakes because an offence is committed in one of three circumstances:
S.10(1) using an identical mark in relation to identical goods. Even Rolex would be at pains to point out that the copies aren't identical to theirs, so that's out the window.
S.10(2) using an identical or similar mark on similar goods where "there exists a likelihood of confusion on the part of the public". If you label it clearly in all advertising as "copy / fake / replica" then there's no chance of confusion, so 10(2) doesn't apply.
S.10(3) using an identical or similar mark on goods that are NOT similar "where the trade mark has a reputation in the United Kingdom and the use of the sign, being without due cause, takes unfair advantage of, or is detrimental to, the distinctive character or the repute of the trade mark"
Under that, you could argue that a replica is similar so the section doesn't apply, and you could also argue that the obvious fakes are so bad and so obvious that they have no detriment to the repute of the originals.
Which only really leaves "taking unfair advantage of" as a possible offence. Personally I think that should be enough, because no-one would buy a known fake Rolex if it wasn't for the reputation of the real ones but, seeing as they're usually selling to people who're very unlikely to ever be in the market for a real one, even that might be arguable.
As long as they're being completely honest about what they are and no-one's being ripped off, I can think of far more important things for the UK justice system to spend its limited resources on than chasing victimless trademark offences (as opposed to real fakery where the buyer loses out on something they think is real).
If Rolex have a problem with it they're more than welcome to spend their own money taking civil action, but I'd rather our police were out catching real speeders.
Trade mark offences come under the Trade Marks Act 1994 and only apply to people using trade marks "in the course of trade", so private sales aren't an offence. The chances are that every one of those listings on Gumtree will claim to be private sellers (whether or not they are) so before establishing an offence you'd also hae to establish that they were trading.
You could also argue that the Act may not apply to the obvious fakes because an offence is committed in one of three circumstances:
S.10(1) using an identical mark in relation to identical goods. Even Rolex would be at pains to point out that the copies aren't identical to theirs, so that's out the window.
S.10(2) using an identical or similar mark on similar goods where "there exists a likelihood of confusion on the part of the public". If you label it clearly in all advertising as "copy / fake / replica" then there's no chance of confusion, so 10(2) doesn't apply.
S.10(3) using an identical or similar mark on goods that are NOT similar "where the trade mark has a reputation in the United Kingdom and the use of the sign, being without due cause, takes unfair advantage of, or is detrimental to, the distinctive character or the repute of the trade mark"
Under that, you could argue that a replica is similar so the section doesn't apply, and you could also argue that the obvious fakes are so bad and so obvious that they have no detriment to the repute of the originals.
Which only really leaves "taking unfair advantage of" as a possible offence. Personally I think that should be enough, because no-one would buy a known fake Rolex if it wasn't for the reputation of the real ones but, seeing as they're usually selling to people who're very unlikely to ever be in the market for a real one, even that might be arguable.
As long as they're being completely honest about what they are and no-one's being ripped off, I can think of far more important things for the UK justice system to spend its limited resources on than chasing victimless trademark offences (as opposed to real fakery where the buyer loses out on something they think is real).
If Rolex have a problem with it they're more than welcome to spend their own money taking civil action, but I'd rather our police were out catching real speeders.
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